pegasus1992

Hermeticism is and has been my area for some time...much taoist teachings are easily understood from it..but we, and let me make this clear ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT PHILOSOPHY. This is a discussion pertaining to Qi, or more specifically the manifestation of Yin and Yang Qi You can study whatever you like...it makes ZERO DIFFERENCE...that's the equivalent of saying, I studied a near death experience, therefore I know what it is etc...Sam Parnia has tried that, and been made look stupid on several occasions Every esoteric teaching from every location talks about Qi ( or whatever label you want) as exactly what you think it is not...either they are all wrong or you are.....and I am pretty certain it's you. Read the bolded part 100 time over, then another 100, then another 100 Until you start to get it Kosta Danoas echoed similar things a long time ago "Last year john wanted to show me what the yang was like. It was night. He had just finished playing Ping-Pong with Johann, as they do every evening Sifu took the Ping-Pong ball in his left hand and held it in the center of his palm He opened his hands and held his right palm about two feet away. Suddenly the ball pulsed with a bluish-violet light in made a noise, too, sort of like a canary singing. Bluish white sparks flew from the ball toward his right palm, they were like miniature lightning bolts. He kept it up for a few seconds and then handed me the ball. It wasn't overly hot, but it was warm. I did my usual thing and cut it in half on the spot, which pissed off everybody because it was the last ball in the house and they wanted to continue their game. But I had to make sure that there wasn't any circuitry inside the ball.,' "Big trouble in Little China 'Handoko said, referring to a similar scene in the opening sequence of the film by John Carpenter. "Yeah," l nodded, but my mind was elsewhere. I was thinking, as I had the evening of that particular demonstration, of Wilhelm Reicht's work in the 1940s and 1950s. Reich had stipulated that the particles of the unknown lifeforce he had discovered, which he had called the orgone bions, were blue. This was almost the same color the yang ch'i had become before rny very eyes when my teacher bad contained it by force of will. And ch'i was, essentially, lifeforce. There were reasons why this particular demonstration was the most important of all that I had seen, It defined the nature of the yang ch,i. First of all, the Ping-Pong ball's surface was made of solid nonporous plastic, while the ball itself was hollow I had immediately asked John if he could duplicate the demonstration with a solid-rubber ball, and he had replied in the negative, the ball had to be hollow for this particular test to work. His statement implied that what I had witnessed was not a surface phenomenon. Rather, the energy had been transferred inside the ball, where it had shone much like a common lightbulb. On the scale of molecular physics, this also meant that the energy John called the yang ch'i was neither a particle nor a wave, but both. I was convinced that this demonstration indicated that the yang energy was a solar phenomenon,just as the Chinese classic stipulated. Wilhelm Reich had died in federal prison in 1957 following a witch hunt by the U.S. government during which his work and notes were seized- Had he discovered the yang ch'i and been persecuted by the powers that be, who didn't want such knowledge to become common?" Really couldn't care less if you believe it or not, it's not like you've provided anything of substance to date, except as Starjumper pointed out poor detective work, coupled with tunnel vision I might add 50 years of practice? I do wonder indeed, what it is you were practicing and learning.

Looking forward to a purchasing a copy!

I originally thought this too, but I am unsure now energy is required to apply force which then initiates movement If qi is movement, as per the suggestion, then where is the force that initiates it? and what about the energy required to to apply that force? that model just doesn't make any sense to me

Ok firstly you need to understand that the bible has been edited, and many of the concepts in it misunderstood. It has been used as a tool by political forces, and as such, has become an instrument of inducing fear into others...but this is not it's intention, that is merely what certain authorities do Regards things like homosexuality, it cannot be in line with those teachings, and here,s why. Sex is the means through which people procreate, it is not a means to satisfy desire. Because it is against the doctrine to have sex without the possibility of procreation, then homosexual sex serves no purpose in the christian view. On top of this there are esoteric underpinnings related to the polarities of male and female ( yin/yang, electric/magnetic) etc. If we go back the belief is that humans were originally androgynous, and reproduced asexually before the fall ( See the work of Franz von Baader). This is a very complex topic in and of itself Biblical commandments are to be strived towards, it is a given than people will break some of them, the point is to try not to. As earlier mentioned to be in harmony with them is to " walk the path " The standards on morality and obedience are not simply a product of parenting nor law enforcement, they are conditioned over time.Why is it you think this has such a profound impact on parenting and policing? There are laws yes, and certain ideas children need to be taught, but what exactly is this line crossed that you are implying? Also, religion does not enable or facilitate wars, I am really tired of hearing that same old story. People create wars, based on divergence of opinion, and if religion didn't exist, they would just find something else to fight about. People use that as a scapegoat, but any observant person can see it is just that. I would reiterate my earlier point, do not hate Christians for merely believing in something they are told to. There was a point in our life where you took these things without question too I'm sure, try to consider that.

I'm afraid you are the only one here doing that #1 You've repeatedly labelled JC, SOTG and anyone else who has been mentioned that can do "paranormal" things a fraud, despite having no actual evidence of it #2 You've literally backed yourself into several corners throughout this thread, and every time you do, you just ignore the posts like they never existed. #3 You claim to have over 50 years experience, yet you show understanding and outlook of a beginner based on the tunnel vision displayed. Are all the others being dishonest, or are you? I know which is more likely #4 The double standards, hypocrisy and appeals to authority are literally indicative that you do not actually know what you are talking about. The list could go on and on.... I hope you do stop at this stage, because unlike every other thread you where you actually post almost near passive aggressive comments pertaining to things you don't agree with, someone actually called you on it this time. And the results are as such For someone with 50 years of experience, the lack of respect you show for other people who are serious, devoted practitioners is somewhat surprising.

Thank you for the correction, it's somewhat aligned to what I was trying to say, but clearly I made a mess of it. a good insight from that post! much respect

I'll quote what I just posted, seeing as it went over your head "The movement of Qi along a given polarity allows it to be positioned on a given spectrum to which we can define it's position and nature...but the movement itself is not the energy" Nobody claimed Yin was movement...rather I stated that it is a reference to the position of energy on a given polarity. Also, define " accumulated substance"...what exactly is this you are referring to?

Ill ignore the first comment seeing as you are neither informed nor qualified to make such an opinion Gladly Qi is not movement because Qi is life force The movement of Qi along a given polarity allows it to be positioned on a given spectrum to which we can define it's position and nature...but the movement itself is not the energy. That is the most ill informed thing you've posited so far ie yin qi manifests as "magnetic" but it is not magnetism per se Again pay attention to how dark matter works......we are dealing with substances that are not normally observable by the 5 senses.... Therefore to define the action as qi, is not only uninformed, it also displays ignorance to the true nature of qi, and to any insight into its function

Cite the references....present the evidence because up to this point you've provided nothing at all Also qi is not movement between polarities... qi is intrinsic life force...it manifests on polarities, and its defined by its position on said polarities ( ie yin cold, yang hot) but it is not movement itself...consider how dark matter works

Oh I understand perfectly well how qi works, but there is no evidence among the consensus in western science that it exists. This is the current paradigm and will remain so for some time. Do I agree with it ? No, but I am not in the consensus. Your uncle? More appeals to authority....give it a break and provide evidence at least once in this monstrosity of a thread But to be devils advocate. lets say you do believe that, regards bioelectricity, thermodynamics etc... So Drew has perfectly explained JC's abilities. So by your own (new) standard, its entirely plausible that JC lit that paper on fire using Qi. Its all there nicely packaged for you....have a nice read http://viewzone.com/spiritualhealing22.html

Right, time to put a nail in this coffin. So you are claiming testimony from JC students, patients and those who tested him fradulent, yet you are trying to USE A JOURNALISTS (SEE HERE https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2008-jun-21-et-hall21-story.html ) opinion of Manly P Hall as evidence he was nothing special, and using references to things which have ZERO RELEVANCE to his knowledge or ability no less...... Yes that makes tremendous sense...continue please (FYI he was just an example of someone self learning material unavailable/incomrephensible to the public to the point of mastery) Moreover, you were the one talking about hearsay and whatnot being useless, yet now you are citing it as evidence? The hypocrisy and double standard is indicative that you are no more near enlightenment than any other person Ok so lets imagine you have a point here (you don't) If scientific validity is what you require as satisfying the burden of proof, then that must mean that you have spent the last 50 years doing absolutely nothing ,except being lied to by a bunch of con artists and manipulated, whilst concurrently lying to yourself, because qi has no current scientifically accepted evidence. Also, because there is no accepted evidence, you cannot define the parameters in which it operates. In other words, the whole " I can do this with qi, but JC cannot do that" is redundant and false, based on your own logic that is. So either its real and you are being hypocritical and having double standards for JC, or it isnt and you've been lied to, and are lying to yourself. Which is it? Either way you are going to eat your words now

That's honestly the silliest thing I've read on here to date. A large majority of people I know would never reveal the names of teachers, or in most cases lineages...UNLESS they are well known. Actually I could go one farther and say there are a lot of people on here who would not reveal that information...Just look at the amount of butchered posts etc, people going back on their words. You think these things are widely spoken of publicly? Perhaps in your tradition they are public knowledge? Further to that, there are a lot of people who learn themselves, and in the western traditions ( and some eastern), they are often guided by spiritual entities, almost like a download of consciousness...this is quite common. This was one of the things I was hinting at with the invocation videos, only you are too perceptually biased to get it. Franz Bardons system is pretty much left there for anyone who wants it in 3 books, and the first book alone will take people further than most (not all) public schools ever would While (physical) teachers can have and do have value, they are not the be all and end all, and there are other ways of reaching goals (if you know how) Let me give you an example Manly P Hall....he never studied philosophy in a university, he never had any teaching in freemasonry, nor any other arts...He was inducted as a 33rd degree freemason 47 years after he published the secret teachings of all ages, yet he never went through an initiation...nor any training...all self learned...yet just as competent as those who had studied it their entire lives Your inability to think people can read and learn from books, experience and other "more occult" methods and whatnot is misguided. Also you do not know what I have learned or studied.....but without knowing what you did study, I can tell your perception is largely skewed in that you have preformed opinions of what is and is not acceptable as experience Finally , as your opinion borders on an argument from authority, it's a useless argument...so try harder please ( I seem to repeat that phrase to you over and over)

Why do you resent Christians exactly? A vast majority of them are good people with good intentions and not out to harm anyone You sound lost....I suggest reading into the esoteric underpinnings of religion. What you are taught vs What is are two different things Exoteric religion will always be open to manipulation, as is can be used as a way to control others...that's what happens with many of them, but that means nothing in the context of what they are....for example, a car in the wrong hands is a deadly weapon..but a car is not meant to be used as such, nor was it's intention Esoteric religion is much more comprehensive, and while it is hard to grasp at first, you might gain insight...im not saying to endorse any one, but seeing as you are so disheartened , perhaps you should really try to understand what it is you are so disheartened by

So you seem to be flirting with an argument from authority... If you didn't study x or under x then you wouldn't know you understand the logical fallacy that this is right? Going by your logic, you are in no position to judge anything outside of your own discipline, because without studying these "you wouldn't really know" Perhaps retract that statement then we can get further into a discussion about areas of study Regards with whom, I'm not sure if you get how esoteric arts work, but generally, they are secret....that includes the people who practice them....I guess you must have subscribed to a very public discipline? His reference most likely echoed mine, that Bodhidharma teachings are reflected in Daosim, and therefore a part of it (whether you or anyone else likes to admit that or not is irrelevant) For someone with so much knowledge, you are representing yourself in a less than knowledgeable way Also you never responded to my invite to test you in a university setting....And here I thought you legitimately sounded like you wanted to do that

I do not need to talk to him to agree with him, the mechanisms for what he describes are evidence across eastern and western disciplines....the western tend to do less work regarding the energetic application, and are moreso concerned with working within the spiritual domain, but that is neither here nor there John Chang was doing these things before the internet was a mainstream thing....and hes not a scientist...and these things weren't commonly known...please jump off the argument that he's doing tricks, unless you can prove he was As repeated above, the mechanisms are ubiquitous...learn how to read a Bible properly, you'll see them, learn how to read Buddhist scriptures, you'll see them, Hindu's, voodoo, hermetics, shamans....the list goes on and on Nobody need have studied daoist teachings to understand whats happening here...rather as a person who claims to understand these matters, you should be absolutely aware that any set of teachings is little more than a reference point to an underlying set of mechanics, which have been seasoned and flavored by culture, language, perception and experience, thus allowing them to appear different across a temporal period. These however, remain as nothing more than leaves on twigs connected to branches that stem from a trunk that is not detrimentally dependent on one focusing on a particular leaf, so your point is somewhat redundant

Quite simply that John Chang himself is an authentic source of information and gives some insight into matters pertaining to the energetic mechanisms underlying neigong. I do not doubt what he said. His words regarding the after death process are strikingly similar to most esoteric schools of thought, regarding the purging of the spirit. Quite similarly, much of the energetic discussion is now confirmed by several others who lead schools, although the whole "dan tian cords" thing really confuses and eludes me ( I know its been mentioned in other disciplines, but I cannot find much, if anything about it) The splinter group I do not trust, they have nothing of value to add to the discussion. Their wild claim that john is the only authentic source of information in the world is quite simply idiotic. They are practicing with incomplete information, and will most likely hurt themselves. I think there's a guy travelling around Europe giving qi shocks to people, and another in Thailand. If they are so interested in that particular ability, I'm sure they would have sought one of them out. I believe SOTG is correct when he speaks about JC using sorcery to an extent....but it is Daoist Sorcery, or at least a derivative of it...fu's , keris, offerings.....it is only a particular type of work that involves this. I also believe Drew's explanation of what he said about Changs abilities, and also because of my limited understanding of his internal alchemy book ( physics is not my area of study) Finally, the Mopai method itself is most likely 1 way to achieve a certain goal...but there almost always more than one way to a destination, and given whats available, there's plenty of safer, complete teachings out their pertaining to matters of energy and the spirit. It's not something anyone should be doing, because it is detrimental to their health, which is bad for them, and because one should not annoy an egregore, particularly one that comes from a lineage such as that, which appears to have quite powerful proponents There's my opinion on the matter, which as you can see, has nothing to do with that group TLDR; JC = Some Legitimate insight WMP = Nothing of Value to add

And science has not proven that this it what John Chang did....thanks for leading yourself to that conclusion...so if theres no scientific evidence regards the fire phenomena ( and nobody ever claimed there was) we are left to assess the evidence and make a judgement call.....you seem to think that this fire thing and the LED display is all he's ever done...... You're most welcome to come and join me to put that to the test, I need a decent test subject, and seeing as you think the likes of John Chang & SOTG is fake, I'll be 100% sure to pay specific detail to every minute detail ( unlike the souls who tested chang, and left themselves open to so much scrutiny) You'll also have full anonymity, so your wish to circumvent any audience will most definatley be granted...We can use the full range of neuoimaging equipment, so fMRI, fNIRS and MEG/EEG...and be more precise after we work out the details of what you can do statically, and dynamically Why exactly? Im curious I do not know, why dont you go and ask them? Ive no association or affiliation there ( thats my second time saying that on this forum) No you are not asking a proponent of Western Mopai...you are asking a person who takes the current degree of evidence (what little it is) pertaining to John Chang, as indicative of activity that is paranormal by western reductionist materialistic frameworks...THAT IS ALL....and I would say the same for SOTG and a few others also....So please don't categorize me with a splinter cult I know nothing about.

These people are vessels because their aim is not spiritual attainment.....it is something else entirely Those who do practice invocation in the esoteric arts, do so for attainment...there is a fundamental difference here It is context specific.....and if you read into the purpose of the festival you will see those who are the vessels do so for an entirely different reason..... That is no contradiction, and it is not difficult to understand....stop trying to invent arguments please

Specific to the fact, the person in question was asked at least a dozen times to provide ANY EVIDENCE whatsoever pertaining to the situation itself...the fact that every request led to no evidence and in fact no reply to the request leaves one with no option but to assume....the person has has every opportunity to provide it and further the discussion, rather they have chose to dance around the point continuously rather than get to it. This is an assertion based on the responses provided and are CONTEXT SPECIFIC, not a conclusion jumped to....it is not a character attack...it is pertaining to the fact that this person has not tested John Chang, nor even met him, and is therefore in no position to make any claim about him. The individual in question did not test JC nor his students ( ie. tested nobody: A FACT) therefore is in no position to make any claim or confirmation ( confirmed nothing: ANOTHER FACT) The envious matter is a derivative from another poster, because that is my conjecture on the overall situation...THE FACT that I said MOST LIKELY, but not THIS IS....is indicative of the fact that I am open to correction, therefore making no claim, whereby the reference to the other poster is not a skewed claim to authority, but rather a citation to where the ACTUAL claim came from

I dont know why its going over your head, but every example you give is that pain is perceptive and linked to consciousness..further proving what i said as true Also the area below the eye is another poor example given receptor density......and you had one injury...these are repeated, elongated to a far more sensitive area...try harder and better...also i have had worse injuries than what anyone has mentioned thus far..if personal experience actually meant anything here, id have brought it up...but it doesn't...and believe me i had one injury that was far worse than some of the stuff in the videos and pictures..two actually To summarize, regardless of what you say...the science here is very well founded...your opinion is not...if you want to discuss this further steer away from the conjecture and positing personal opinions as facts. The science is clear...perception pain and consciousness are intertwined...you need a shift in either perception or consciousness to override biological mechanisms...you cannot sit there and repeatedly mutilate yourself and not feel anything unless something has fundamentally changed......it is impossible or in the very rare cases, a neurological anomaly...and dozens of people having this happen at the same time rules that out... If you want to see how this got into this thread...it started with the guy who tried to posit his opinion as fact and debunk someone with zero evidence....this was an exercise to explain that paranormal things do occur and are readily available to perceive if one wishes Also head shaking would not mitigate it...go and examine the theory of pain, and then see different types of pain regarding the temporal nature (ie stimulus contingent and sustained)......you do not shake out gaping wounds...that might work with a bang to an elbow or something...but not in this case...nice try though

Elaborate on that if you would Regards making arguments personal....there is nothing personal here, when a lack of awareness to something is shown, it is ignorance to the fact. This is not belittling.... I actually went out my way to explain the underpinnings of these things to those who didn't understand them so that they would no longer not understand them. In fact, It would be much easier to throw around insults and belittle people than construct some of the replies I did...but I don't Your perception of the situation is skewed...but I am happy to elaborate and explain

Regards cut....see below...this will explain to you why you did not feel it..you probably didnt penetrate the epidermis....and yes, perception and consciousness are linked to pain, i've stated that countless times over and over again.... you should note the tongue has no such protection. The reasons for what they do are very understandable if you grasp certain concepts.....like I said im done writing big long posts....if you want to educate yourself and understand it by all means google is your friend

Im done providing information and long winded posts for people not to respond to them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Emperor_Gods_Festival There, feel free to read away, you'll get your answers No ad hominems or straw men.....calling out ignorance to a point, fact or information is simply to illustrate ones lack of knowledge in a given subject....when this is demonstrated repeatedly, it is quite normal to state the point...I do not know what other way you want me to twist my language? By all means, what terminology would you prefer I use? I'm all ears (genuinely)

Ill draw from cambridges dictionary for you a person who has a particular quality or who is used for a particular purpose Note the underlined bolded text....that is exactly what I am referring to

Right more nonsense from you, well lets address it #1 no they weren't involved, they were asked to come, they had zero to do with making the film...check the credits and such....and please stop making empty claims, im getting tired of addressing them, and its making you look like you cannot actually look at the facts whatsoever...but then that doesn't surprise me....it only reinforces what i said earlier about ignorance pertaining to the matter. #2 hearsay it is not, the tests are done on camera, cameras do not provide hearsay...try harder #3 Wheres the proof they had no knowledge? none...didn't think so....stop pretending you understand the situation, or have access to intimate facts regarding this situation that others don't....you don't have that , and ill reiterate my earlier point about making claims with zero evidence #4 invocation is a well understood practice across many " traditional " and esoteric arts (including daoism) your lack of recognition of this tells me you are either (a) hopelessly involved in some pseudo discipline or (b) telling more lies.....neither being true would surprise me at this point. #5 it provides evidence for the bypass of neurobiological functioning of pain mechanisms via consciousness alteration....I am not surprised you don't get that either, you've proven yourself quite incompetent in all things science related so far.....try harder next time, and perhaps pick up a biology book and read the chapter on pain.....and its perception #6 whats most hilarious of all is that THIS IS A DAOIST FESTIVAL, so your discussion about studying real things pertaining to philosophy is quite honestly misplaced....you yourself show a limited understanding and awareness of Daoism. Also, lets not forget just how much of Daosim is basically plagiarism, drawn from earlier traditions. So, I do not need to study philosophy for any reason, because philosophy does not prove anything....SCIENCE PROVES THINGS....So perhaps take your own advice and go read a biology book, before trying to make claims about what is and is not evidence of anything, when you have zero understanding of whats even being discussed ill forgive the ignorance of the comment given that you have already proven yourself incoherent in terms of the neurobiology of pain...but to further educate you on the topic here See how it works? a very shallow but on the FINGERTIP might not be felt as much as elsewhere because of the epidermis...BUT THAT IS ALSO PERCEPTIVE....you should also know that ...Nociceptors are quite dense in this area THE SCIENCE IS CLEAR But also 1 : THE tongue has no such protection, which further discounts your point 2: I'm still waiting for any evidence from you to illustrate any point you made ( SPOILER : You wont find any, because the neurobiology is very clear on how pain works, and its something you show no understanding of so far, so forgive me if I ignore the rest of your conjecture on the matter. I understand how an unaware person can make unsubstantiated claims and cling to them as facts...just realise the facts are actually their in front of you for your eyes to see Show me where anyone claimed it a sign of attainment? No i repeatedly referred to them as VESSELS not PRACTITIONERS Try reading my posts next time, if you can manage to do so you might actually be able to coherently discuss the topic rather than throw silly accusations around But in any event, invocation (and evocation) are normal practices within many esoteric practices pertaining to spirituality..I am telling you that if you go here you will see this, and the key feature is that the altered state of consciousness facilitates the bypass of normal neurobiological pathways pertaining to pain, and the cognitive and perceptive mechanisms attached...AND THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO EXPLAIN THIS PHENOMENA as it is occurs in Phuket, Address the post and stop pretending I said things I did not TLDR ; Its a sign of spiritual activity, not spiritual progress (Please dont make me repeat this again) Go read about the festival and understand the religious concepts and significance of the processes, instead of projecting biased sarcastic opinions onto it...its very clear what they are doing....better yet take my advice and go there....plenty of evidence there for anyone if they want it