Feral

My solution would be to quit thinking of god as something outside yourself. In fact, quit worrying about god altogether and look to your higher self. If you want to be a righteous person, then go out and make it so, don't wait for god to make the first move. Maybe I got it all wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the compass of virtue is written into your own spirit.

He was just a guy speaking about the truth of Nature, including human nature. The success/failure yardstick is an odd way to measure the teachings, but no, they have not failed me personally.

It's entertaining to think that there is a spiritual energy that moves on or returns to source, but honestly, it's a complete mystery to me and I rather like it that way.

I'm really enjoying reading this thread because it's a subject I've been thinking about a lot lately. More from a nature standpoint, but I believe it applies in humanistic levels as well. So, just some musings. I was setting on the beach this morning watching the surf roll in and out. Of course, there’s an undeniable pattern of order in the constancy of that cycle. The tide goes out then comes back in. The laws of nature at work. But it’s a little imperfect too, allowing just enough variation for a bit of chaos to present opportunities for something more unpredictable to happen. Sometimes it’s stormy or silty or uncommonly calm, but there’s always an overarching consistency that is reliable. Yet, I believe that life and growth and evolution are dependent on momentary chaotic events in order to keep things from becoming inert. What it does in the natural world is like honing the blade of survival to keep things in a sharper, more dynamic state. Pushing the boundaries without breaking them. A world in which chaos is the rule would be uninhabitable. All life seems to rely on a somewhat predictable rhythm, in order to establish an efficient mode of interaction and survival. It’s like having a beat to dance too. So, there’s no freedom in chaos, you would spend your whole time trying to prepare for the next non-stop, unpredictable event. Absolute order on the other hand, might be a slower death, one of stagnation and dull complacency. Not a lot of freedom there either. So, and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m just a babe in the woods where Taoist thought is concerned. But, like most things, aren’t the two are entirely interdependent? I guess that’s a fairly dualistic way of seeing things and from a physical standpoint, makes sense to me. The other way of looking at it is that these two things are simply a construct of the human mind and they are no more than blips of high and low frequency on our own bandwidth. Maybe we’re just making up words to match the tune. What I may think is chaos on my own human level, might seem perfectly in order to someone else’s eye. At any rate, it was a lovely day at the beach. I go there to watch the sunset too and each evening it sets just a tiny bit further north. It’s a comforting thought to know that last year, and many thousands of years before that, it dropped into the ocean at precisely the exact same spot and time as it will today. That’s order. Fortunately, there might be a few clouds to, you know…shake thing up

Hi Folks, the Humans without Souls thread prompted some questions from me, such as; How would you describe or define the soul and what is it's function? How does Soul relate to Spirit? Are the two synonymous or is there a difference? I have my own loosely formed thoughts, but would like to hear from others that have reflected on this.

You are asking a rather general question, in turn, you will get general answers. Have you used psychedelics in the past? What is your intent? The scope in which Psyches are used is enormous and they vary, traditionally and non traditionally by each type, in their own way. There are proponents and non proponents for their use and both raise good arguments and concerns. What works well for one person, could be a disaster for another, so there is a need for caution in advocating their use to a random person on the internet. It's not a simple or small subject and this really isn't a forum that focuses on psyches. There is better information elsewhere, but please avoid those Reddit sites unless you are looking for the wrong way to proceed.

A little nippy over that way though, I understand.

For what it's worth, my own experience has included mushrooms, cactus and ayahuasca. What I've found is that they can certainly get the ball rolling as far as spiritual self discovery. Doors will be opened and amazing possibilities encountered. BUT, when you are back to ground zero, it will still be up to you to actively take steps to further your journey in a clear and conscious way. I applaud the people who have been able to reach a higher conscious state without help from the plant molecules, but for others, it can be an awakening moment and possible healing journey that may have never happened otherwise. I'll always be grateful for my own encounters and I think they have these effects for some reason. There are a couple of powerful lessons I've taken away that have stood the test of time, given a measure of peace and continue to nourish the spirit. That said, they can still create illusions of the mind, so a discerning attitude is a requirement and the subsequent work and integration still needs active participation. It's undeniable that there is something powerful going on there and I do see them as a gift, however, if someone should decide to go down that road, please do so with the utmost respect and humility. They are not something to be used lightly or as some form of recreation. Well, mushrooms may be used that way, for a while, but respect and proper preparation will always be rule one.

Good and Evil do exist. Crime and Punishment is a whole other can of worms. We should be careful not to confuse the two.

Sure, things look pretty sweet from my little nest, but for someone leaving their family in Honduras and heading north, or say, someone living under the thumb of the Taliban, maybe not so much.

A slightly different version

Well, lets take something on a very basic and physical level. To eat. We all need to do it in order to get through the day, but should we do it with savage self preservation or will we bring over something from the other drawer like gratitude, or with a sense of indebtedness to the wider forces involved in that organism's existence. Maybe we even had a hand in it's very creation. There is a sense of worth there that transcends it's very physical nature. Maybe something spiritual. Besides, it's what makes us civilized creatures. Now don't go confusing my grand words with my baser actions- it's an ideal. But it's what we work towards. Physical needs tempered with spiritual virtue. There's a better word than "tempered" but I can't find it at the moment. Our actions cause ripples in the pond. Will those ripples be beneficial or destructive? Does it even matter in the end if it doesn't change the final outcome? If it doesn't, then that makes me wonder what the entire point is. Can man live on acceptance alone? So, I suppose one can be as involved in guiding the course of world events as they want to be. some people can even do that. On a more personal level, everyone has to navigate their own boat to some extent. Anyway, the old well worn metaphor of life as a river never fails calm my nerves. It's always a great teacher for me.

First, I would like to say that this is such a fantastic discussion and has helped solidify my own thoughts on Apech's question. Of course the key here is Balance. Speaking for myself, it's as if we create our world from two different drawers. In one drawer is the physical world. We have to live in it to survive and it's the source of every degree of pain and pleasure, morality, sin, security, religion, ego, you name it. It's the dualistic world and survival of the physical body and it's progeny is the goal. In the other drawer is the spiritual world of oneness, love, compassion, humility, non ego, non dual. The world of highest virtue. I think it's rather pointless to argue whether either of these worlds are real or illusion, it's simply where we are. The point is to find some balance between the two. To integrate the contents of one drawer into the other. A person doesn't have to simply exist, one can live nobly and with a sense of purpose. You know, nurture the seeds of creativity and evolution. Our own free will allows us to decide how much of what we want to put into the mix, and that's the beauty of it, there's always going to be a different mix as we seek a way to live well. I'm just an armchair daoist at best, but the idea of balancing yin and yang seems to be a wise path to take while lurching through this life

Trunk was looking for N.A. recordings. This is from the album Sacred Mountains by Louie Gonnie. No synths or junk like that, in fact no instrumental accompaniment at all. I believe a couple of tracks have drums, but this is just a sample, the whole album is good and is the real deal. He has other albums, but a lot of them are peyote songs and have a rapid, sustained drum beat. This one is more meditative, so I prefer it.

Thanks for all of the replies. I particularly found anshino23's excerpt from the Damo book helpful. I looked up the book and thought it looked very interesting if a bit advanced for my own needs. He also has some youtube talks that seem engaging and easy to follow. Of course, I have my own thoughts on immortality, but I was more interested in a daoist perspective and even then, sources seem to vary widely. Yes, this seems about right. Just another step in the journey and it may get rougher than this sweet earthly existence

I don't think I understand the concept of "immortality" in Taoism. We're talking about physical immortality if I'm not mistaken? I can't reconcile the idea with the way Nature works. I get longevity, but has there ever been a Taoist that has attained immortality, or is it simply thought of as an ideal. It's a stumbling block for me and I would give loads of appreciation if someone could point me to a reasonable explanation. Thanks

My bad, a mention from Silent Thunder.

Surprised no one has mentioned Robin Williams. Jim Carrey is right there too. Mike Myers, and going back a ways, Gene Wilder.

Hi Folks, I keep finding myself returning to this forum so I finally decided that I might as well become a member. I'm not much of a "joiner" of things and I'm a little wary of belief systems in general. I think that's what attracts me to Taoism, at least the philosophical aspect, it seems to encourage finding one's own way rather than simply falling in line. In fact, that's why the forum interests me, there's a lot of intelligent (well, usually) discussion from people of diverse backgrounds, knowledge, and traditions/non-traditions. And...it seems to be fairly active, which is getting to be a rarity in the age of facebook and twitter. So, I'm reluctant to say very much in my very first post. I'm well on in years and a little disappointed in the haphazard way I spent (I musn't say wasted) most of my formative years. I'm pretty sure I know a lot less now than I did 30 years ago, but more importantly, these days I see beauty in simplest things. One thing I have learned is that a good sense of humor can take you far . Thanks for being here TDB, looks like a great place to stop in from time to time.