Zen Pig

good that you sussed this out by yourself. See the western origins to the search for what is true, or Epistemology. It is interesting that the origin of western rational "sciences' is developed on a foundation of the "three distinctions", and by the way, this description is a shit translation of the original Greek text. "The Greek word episteme is the root of the English word Epistemology. This philosophical term is commonly associated with the inquiry for truth and knowledge. Greek philosophers seeded the study, and from this cultivation of thought stems the growth of many sciences. The meaning of the word has three distinctions. First, epistemology can be the quest for true and scientific knowledge as opposed to opinion or belief. Secondly, reality is an organized body of thought. Lastly, sometimes referred to as the “first philosophy” epistemology is the understanding of the divine. Restated, epistemology has three focuses, a practical application, an applied science, and a theological approach.

yes, very true in my limited experience. thanks for the link

wow. don't know who these "advanced mediators" are, but from my experience, meditation, is a bridge to both the physical body,(focus breath work, hiking in the hills, etc) the earth, and everything unfolding in this moment. nothing is left out. don't go into a "mindless trance" just see thoughts as part of the whole, so thoughts are not good or bad, or no more or less important than this suchness of unfolding. very simple. nothing special. Folks who work meditation to "bless out" or become disconnected from this amazing life seem to have issues with fear, and avoidance, I think the cute neo non duality word is "spiritual bypassing" I call it fear to be alive.

Wow. thank god that I am an ordinary person. dodged a bullet on that one. Buddha died, Lao Tzu died. Jesus Died. The idea that someone who does not fuck is special, is such hubris. maybe special as in short bus special. LOL. Good luck with all that.

short of what? we are all going to die. just like we were all born. if i worried about the "time i have left", I would probably be a depressed, despondent person. I could drop dead right now. writing this............ (wait for it)............ Ok, good for now, so far. Forgot who made this analogy, think it was the late Hippie Berkeley philosopher Allen Watts, (who probably stole it from some zen dude), but it goes something like: "We don't judge the quality of a dance from how long it last, and we don't judge a song for how long it plays, (because in that case , Iron Butterfly's In the godadavida would be the best song in the last 50 years) LOL. If i try to live as long as I could, I would miss out on living, because I would be doing so because I was fearful of death, and hence fearful of living, but that's just me. not trying to tell anyone what to do. just my two cents.

good points about how words make life changes to others. kind of amazing how words can be powerful. But my original point of deciding what is real and unreal is dependent on our conditioned upbringing. Many people define "unreal" as "Have no mass and take up no space", which we "Know" is true and makes sense, but If I told someone 150 years ago, that "waves" that are everywhere, travel in the vacuum of space, and have no mass or take up no volume are "real" they would laugh in my face and think I was insane. Of course now days, we all "Know" that these waves are real because we are taught that they are real. If i were to ask 100 people on the street, in today's "modern" world, "how does the wireless internet travel through empty space to our phones"? ...... I will be optimistic and say that only 99 out of the 100 would not have a clue. most would just say, "because we are taught that they do". I could even walk up to 100 people in the street and ask, "can you prove to me that the earth is not flat".......... how many could? not by saying, "this is what everyone is taught", but really show me that the earth is round using simple plane geometry like the Greeks did 3000 years ago. The point that I am probably not making very well, is how we think we "know" something, when we were really just conditioned to accept or believe something. how weird is that? thanks for the great comment.

you do know what a metaphor is? From my experience in MA, when I start to learn a new system. I don't go to the sensei or sufu, and try to show them "how it is done", or what my experience is, or how i would do a technique., (my cup is full of my own self ego), But I "empty my cup", and know that I just want to learn there system. so I learn it, but that does not mean, that once I see and learn what they are teaching that I don't see things I would not do, or attempt, but at some point the new system , and what I have learned in the past kind of merge, work out, and I walk away having learned a new way to look at life, MA , techniques. I don't go into a new system being a brainless twit, but rather, just with an open, learning inquiring mind. Easy Peasy Leon Squezy.

yes, actually had a couple of these "voices" which , like you say, is not a verbal voice, but something we cannot ignore if we wanted to.

Discussion this am with real person. Today's modern spiritual teacher, (well,,, a good percentage of them), have probably had, at some time in there lives, some kind of profound seeing or knowing, or "ah-ha" moment where what they thought they were, the world was, life was, fundamentally changed for a brief period of time. This kind of direct experience is nothing special, in my experience, and with folks who have a daily long term meditation practice. Like most people, this kind of experience is transforming, but soon our thinking mind kicks back in attempting to analyze just what happened, and whether or not we can "make" it happen again. Depending on our own personality, we might spend years trying to get that initial experience back, without success, until we just give up and stop trying, and then many will again have deeper and more interesting openings into this suchness of life. once again, our thinking mind, our ego pop's back up , and we now think, "wow, I have had several amazing experiences, I must tell others about this, maybe become a teacher so I can help others see what I saw" - so good, so far....... Now this person, who use to just go sit somewhere, or have there own spiritual practice is now teaching other folks, many of whom , come to this teacher with deep seated issues, deep insecurity, a need to belong, or a need to have someone to follow. The new spiritual teacher has given up his/her job, and says, "well, in order to help as many people as I can, i have to charge money so I can do this full time"........ Now this teacher has a career, so now, the original teaching of "just drop all ideas about what you think you want or need and just go sit" is to simple because the new seekers need to hear talk, hear about experiences, hear things that will make them feel good. have someone to follow, to believe in. Many of these seekers who are depending on this new teacher to "Make there life ok" now fluff up the new teachers ass, with worship, sex favors, lots of money, which at this point the new teacher is now the old teacher, and has rationalized that he/she is sill helping these poor students by just his/her spiritual energy or power. seekers spend thousands on retreats, books, and never ending arguing about the "true way to become enlightened, immortal, awakened, and the original practice, just like the sitting cushion that was purchased years ago, are both sitting in a closet collecting dust. Amazing times.

hmmmmmm. so i take it that you want all of us to know that you are awakened? Just pulling you non-existent, non-ego leg. I have also had experiences that transcend description, but just seeing the connection to everything, no gaps, and the amazing wonder of it all is as close as i can come to speaking of it. With that said, I don't have a fucking clue what the term, or word "awakening" means. For me, it is a label folks put on themselves or the so called "spiritual teachers" that gives them a "special" standing in the spiritual community, (such as it is), that says, "I made it, now I know shit". LOL Been at this cat and pony show for some time, talked to adyashanti, and others, and never seen anyone who "destroyed ego". Maybe someone has, but then again, they are probably not posting on these kinds of links and talking through there asses like I am right now. Ego is as much a part of the human experience, (at least for me) as eating, shitting, laughing, crying and everything else that makes us human. For me, it is just that this so called ego, doesn't have the power I once gave it. while it is still a part of me, it is not in the drivers seat, but others experiences could be very different. who knows.

Sounds like a great book. and I like what your spiritual mentor said.

yes. this is also my experience, but of course I am not a teacher. Some of the most vocal, folks who tell others what awaking is, do not have a spiritual practice, a daily practice of meditation, or some other form of practice for a couple of hours a day, every day. Not that meditation will cause someone to awaken, but it seems like it greases the wheel.

I started looking at the new spiritual non-duality scene over the last 10 years , about the time Eckhart Tolle and others started to teach folks in the west. Many of them, had direct experiences that mirrored my own, but I saw them go from folks who I think really wanted to help others, to getting absorbed into our culture of greed and power, and getting stained. Not knocking anyone in particular, as I have seen this happen to many famous spiritual people over the years, and I think it is just being human. When I first had a so-called "awakening moment", after the amazing event, my thinking mind got back in action, along with my ego, and I started to want to tell folks what "the truth" is, and how they should act, and that I wanted them to view me as something special. importantly, i did not stop meditating, and looking, so got my egoistic ass handed to me a few times, so dodged a bullet on that one.

There is a great story that the late Joseph Campbell tells during his time living in Hawaii . He tells of a news story he watched on the local TV channel that told of a young man getting ready to jump to his death off a cliff. A Hawaiian cop arrives at the scene , and tries to talk the jumper down. All at once the young man either jumps, or just looses his balance, and the cop reaches out and grabs him. The cop is almost dragged off the cliff, but does not let go, and finally another cop arrives and saves the cop from being pulled over the cliff along with the young man. When asked "why did you hang on to this young man, even though he was pulling you to your death"...... The hero cop replied, "I just knew that I could not let go, if this young man died, I would have also died" Don't see this as someone "walking over this cop, or masochistically action".. I can't tell anyone what real love is... but I know it when I see it.

I think a lot of folks feel this way about unconditional love. In my limited experience, (and not claiming to have "god like love"), but I can still feel compassion for someone as i kick there ass. my view of love is not all puppy dogs and farting rainbows. love can be a tough teacher, but it is not done for "what can I get out of this", but rather reacting in the moment, to do what needs to be done. the view that "It was never about me" kind of thing. a work in progress.

haven't heard of waxwood, but up here we have a lot of Ash trees growing, and there top branches make great staff's. Ash is one of the hardest and more dense woods, so a 1 1/2 inch thick staff will easily support my weight. I have a copper fitting on the bottom of it, so when I hike in the mountains, it is a great support for going down the hills. great self defense weapon also, wouldn't whack a bear with it, but it works great for discouraging someone's off leash dog that tries to have a go at me.

I love this quote. reminds me of a Rumi saying, "A pickpocket sees a holy man, and all he sees is his pockets"

Have none. what do I look like? some kind of freaking Mr. smarty boots.??? LOL

well/........ yes and no, depends on your cup of tea. if one is a neo-non-duality, "nothing exist" all is emptiness, only awareness is real, school, then yea, I suppose that watching the breath is a good tool. Personally, focus meditation, and what the west calls "mindfulness" meditation, are two ends to the same stick, but are both needed to focus the mind, (yea, I know, the mind is an illusion) LOL, and the sitting in the moment is the other end of the stick of being in this moment of awareness, then after a few years of daily meditation, the two things, focus and mindfulness merge. hard to explain, has to be experienced.

yes, this is true, but the reality of talking to a psychologist, is very different in my experience. retired from our local university about a year ago, and actually describing an experience of transcendence, of seeing entities, hearing voices, seeing trees grow out of the ground in front of you (have no idea how this happens), never met someone who would not have a sort of knee jerk reaction, and rubber stamp me as disillusion at best, which just means that we are all humans, even ones with diplomas framed in there offices.

I think you just defined humanity. LOL

For me, there is no premise. Just sitting to sit. to be here. that's it. LOL. I completely agree. as far as "psychosis" goes, that depends on your world view. I have seen many odd things, experienced disembodied voices, and other direct experiences in my years of sitting. to term this as a "mental illness" belies the core western rational materialistic belief system, and not true science. My definition of mental illness is to ask myself, "am i able to differentiate my meditation experiences, form those of the so-called day to day world, and what other people usually experience? and my answer is yes. Do these meditation experience interfere with my life, family, work life in any way? and my answer is No. Lastly, there is some evidence that folks who are developing a real mental illness or have the potential to develop a mental illness in the near future, can have a hallucinogenic drug experience, that acts like a trip wire for something that would develop in the near future anyway. I think that meditation can also act like a trip wire for folks who have possible chemical imbalances already present in there brains. but that percent is so low, as to not represent the vast population of people who meditate. all in all this Doctor guy is full of donkey shit. thanks for the post.

looks like an interesting site. thanks. (but I really would not want to get anything I could think of, that never works out like we think it will). thanks again.

From what i have read of others experiences with this shadow person, thing, energy, it is not at all uncommon for folks to have an experience with it. I never have, so don't know. But of course I have a story that is kind of similar. (old farts always have stories if they live long enough) When I was about 3 or 4, and my brother was around 5, we shared a room with two single beds. It was night and we were in our beds talking about something. we could see well, as my parents were not in bed yet, and our bedroom door was open, and light was coming from the hallway right outside our room. We were in each of our beds, kind of propped up on our pillows talking, and all at once, all I can explain it as, was a monster hand, complete with pock marked gray skin and long claws popped up from under my bed, right next to me. Both my brother and myself saw it as the very same time and screamed our little heads off. My Pa came running into our room and turned on the lights, and the hand disappeared. to this day, both me and my brother agree on what we saw, but my parents just said that I had a bad dream........... sometimes the universe is stranger than we can know.

hmmmmmm. all i can say is that if you were in deep space, light years from anything else, just floating, there would be no "up or down" one could not point to it. LOL yes, as far as sun gazing, I have done it before right at sun rise and sun set, if one looks up the UV index vs. time charts put out by the EPA, sun rise and sun set are about a 1 compared to 10 at mid day, so like most folks who love to watch the sun rise, for tens of thousands of years, I don't see it harming anyone if one just looks for a min or two. not complicated. good luck