Zen Pig

Greetings Sooryasadayam Have had similar experiences, only with what folks call Kundalini kriya movements and energy. And you are correct in that this cannot be reproduced in a skeptical experiment (as far as I know). Lots of research into mind/body connection and energy, but the problem with proof or finding the mechanism for these events is elusive at best and does not mesh well with western objective proof. All I can suggest is to keep your open inquiring mind. For me, one of the best things I have learned in zen is to say, "I don't know". good luck and above all have fun.

Great questions. and if someone tells you that they Know For Sure, then they are full of shit. In the end, you have to learn and go with your own experiences, knowing that they might be different from others. My analogy would be like tasting an apple. We all agree it is an apple, because we are taught that this thing on that tree is an apple, but do you experience the red of the apple like I do? no way to tell. red is defined as a 625 to about 740 nano meter wave length, but that does not tell me that your subjective experience of the red on the apple is the same as mine. Do you taste the apple the same way I do. well, i like apples, and you might or might not, but we have no objective experiment that shows that we taste it the same way. an apple to me, might taste like chicken taste to you, but we would both agree or disagree that we like the taste of apples. so Objective science , is good for some things, but most of the universe is subjective. so short answer to your question, is that IMO, you got to find it for yourself. I suggest start by meditating. learning how to just sit, and watch thoughts, until these thoughts take a back seat and you have a direct experience of what ever that is. or you can just dance, or walk in the mountains or woods. anything to get connected to that that transcends words. good luck.

yes. that's my point that I probably did not make so well. I do not separate "real" from "unreal", after all, these are just words. dreams, lucid dreams, deep sleep, things seen in sitting meditation, or just getting up in the morning, taking a piss, and making some bacon and eggs are all one thing. In zen we call this the "suchness of life". I love the term "suchness" because it is a word that does not bring up a pre-programmed, or socially conditioned image of what it is. If i say, "it seems more real" or that "I saw......something in meditation" these too are just words. not good, not bad. In the end, what good is this whole spiritual, quest if not to live right now in all its spender. thanks for your comments.

shouldn't butt in on this exchange, but I would have to say QED on this one. (Quod Erat Demonstrandum) or "that which is to be shown. To say you "don't believe something" is just that, a belief, not good not bad, but certainly not scientific by any means. This is the marching song western materialist rationalist goose step to. From a truly scientific view point, one must say, "I have no idea". We think ourselves "modern, rational, intelligent", and people who suggest that maybe there is an afterlife, (what ever that means) are looked upon as stupid superstitious, and non-scientific. This is the reason we don't talk about seeing different life forms in meditation, or either subscribe it to some kind of mechanical brain malfunction or chemical imbalance. This is also the reason that Buddha's, Issac Newton, Plato, Aristotle, ideas on Gods, and spiritual life is hidden or just ignored. We are a product of our social programming. we can't help it. I remember listening to Robert Thurman as a young man, sitting in meditation, and his Tibetan teacher came up to him and ask, "Why are you meditating so much? let just go get some yogurt" Thurman replied, "because I want to become enlightened"..... His teacher said, "You are western, you cannot become enlightened, you are taught social beliefs that you cannot escape, so lets just go get some yogurt".. I don't know how serious his teacher was about this , but I do understand his point. we are raised from the time we are born to believe in science, (which should not be a belief system), and that our system of logic is the only correct way to think and see the world. weird.

This is very interesting, and not often talked about. It seems like in seeing other "realities" for lack of a better word, come out as so real and vivid in both colors, and texture. seems more real than "real" life. have no idea why that is the way it is, and I really doubt that anyone else has a clue why this happens, but there you go.

I also agree with this, but my take on this whole western "teacher, guru, spiritual leader" development stems, (from my experience), from people having some kind of "opening" so to speak, then thinking that they are awakened, or enlightened and then going on to teach. From my experience the vast majority are not teachers, just egotistic folks who took an experience or a few experiences, and then made themselves some kind of guru to be worshiped. I am somewhat old, and Have been in the martial arts for over 45 years, and i remember this same thing happening to people who came out of the military in the 60's and 70's who took a couple of years of martial arts during being stationed overseas then came to the U.S and put up a dojo and called themselves "Masters". In reality they were only beginners. Even in the Japanese belt system, the black belt means that "you are now ready to learn", not that your are ready to teach, and not even close to being a master. So yes, having so called opening experience, of oneness, or timelessness, of seeing other beings happen to most folks who meditate on a daily bases, and there are still lots of subtle body issues, and things to work out. the worst thing someone can do IMO, is to go on to try to teach others. just my two cents from the peanut gallery.

what end?

Thank God. some of the biggest most egotistic ass holes i have ever seen, are or claim to be "awakened" . i have no idea what awakened or enlightened mean, and really don't give a shit. For me, my meditation is deeper than what I can express with words. and that seems to be where we must leave it. good luck on your path.

Sounds like a good hobby, but if you really want abilities, in a relative short time. take some good martial arts. work out. go for runs. swim, take some yoga. Eat real food, cooked at home, not the crap folks buy in fast food marts. After about 6 months to a year, depending on your age, you will feel like superman. At the same time, you can also start to do some sitting meditation, at first 10-20 mins a day, work at this too, every day, until you are sitting for a few hours a day, and then in maybe 10, 20 years, you might get some abilities, but by then, they might not be as important. good luck

Well, if you knew me, and I thought you were full of shit, and wrong, i would tell you that you were full of shit. But folks do what they believe. I do to. So yes, if it works for you good. now you are being full of shit. I did not say that I hated what i was doing. just that sometimes it is a pain to help others. But For me , it is something I need to do. don't read into my post what I did not say. How's that? LOL.

Well,... if that works for you, then good luck, hope it all works out. I help folks who god puts in front of me, so to speak, and I am not always good at it, and I don't do it because it makes me feel good. it is a pain in the ass at times. but that is my path. to each there own.

Reminds me of an old story. The one I am posting says it is a Taoist story, but learned it as a Zen story. who knows. but good stuff. There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "May be," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "May be," answered the farmer. The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "May be," said the farmer.

Don't know who the Pop brothers/sisters are. but it never hurts to sing. good for you. As far as negative entities goes, when I was very young, I use to have reoccurring nightmares of being chased by the wolf man, Dracula, and Frankenstein. Think I was 6 or 7. one night all three of them were after me, and I somehow realized it was a dream , one of the first lucid dreams i ever remembered, and climbed a stone wall, and turned around and ask, "hay, why are you guys chasing me"? They stopped in there tracks and just looked at each other and then at me, like "we don't have a clue why we are chasing you"... So I jumped off the wall, and said, 'so lets just be friends". so we all shook hands and decided to stop fucking with each other and let us all be. never had another nightmare about them. My point in this was, the old saying, "That which we resist persist" - we all have dark travelers, and while singing is a way to open the heart, we cannot stuff them away, we have to bring them to the light of day, see what we need to see. Most dark things feed off our fear, our insecurities. Laughing is also good, as long as we keep open, fearless. good luck

oh, i like this quote. I was just considering something like this the other day. we live in the hills of northern Colorado. don't have regular tv, or lots of modern entertainment, and once a week we just kind of sit around , eat a little left overs, and it would probably bore some folks to death. might read a book, take a nap, or a walk.... that kind of thing. then I saw that we were all, on that day living naturally, kind of like what many people are after when they meditate, to live in the '"moment". sometimes the best gifts are those right in front of us that have always been free for the taking.

for one thing, in my experience that depends a lot on your personality, body type etc. I lift weights twice a week, do sprint interval work doing 50 yard dashes twice a week. walk our hills in our valley a few days a week, (about 3 mile walk), do Pencak silat a couple of hours a week, and that is about it. lastly, I take ice cold showers in order to work on focus, relaxation and breath control, but one has to kind of work up to that. So I would suggest playing with things you are interested in, something that gives you energy, and feels right. it could be yoga, dance, tai chi, or just about anything that fits you. good luck

This is only natural. so called "doing both" will come in time. it cannot be forced, just focus on the hara/tanden, watch the breath, and at some point, might take a few years, the breath will be seen like everything else in awareness, like sitting feeling the wind , smelling the rain, listening to birds, breathing, it all becomes an unfolding, all one thing, so to speak. this is where words suck. one just has to sit, and keep sitting. no instant rewards. good luck

I think it is good to have a solid spiritual practice. My so called "practice" involves a couple hours meditation, both sitting and walking, physical exercise, MA, and the like. almost no reading these days, because I have found so little that resonates for me as having any value. I am sure that there are some good old manuscripts out there, but one still has to be careful of how the translator did his/her job. I have a bit of a different take on spirituality. in short to quote the Doctor Strange movie, "It's not about me, it's never been about me". I have seen so many religious or spiritual people who practice in order to get "saved", go to heaven, or get a good reincarnation, and so on. Many do religion or spiritual things to keep from going to hell, or getting a bad rebirth, depending on ones belief. I once read a passage in Jewish mysticism (kabbalah) that talks about the perfect sacrifice, which is to sacrifice yourself, or do something good and noble without any chance of reward. to do something good for only the sake of being a good person. For me, spirituality is not about some here after or rebirth. It is about doing something good, kind, loving right here. Not suggesting that I am at this point in my development yet, as I still do practices for my own development, to be honest, but i am a work in progress, and living a natural, good life without grasping is slowly sinking in.

What's OP?

Great information. thanks. I only looked at Tibetan sleep and dream yoga after i started to have lucid dreams. this is because it addressed my personal experience. from what I know sleep yoga is getting awareness into the "dreamless sleep" or deep sleep. I have only had a couple of experiences where I was both in a dream state, aware i was in bed, and aware of the dreamless state. Of course i had nothing to do with this experience, and could not reproduce it. lastly, as far as Tibetan sleep or dream yoga go, it does seem to agree with my personal experience, so far.

yes, i agree, it doesn't seem to have a lot of ground shaking significance, as most of the life forms i see don't seem to be that interested in me other than just looking. maybe this is why it isn't discussed that much, as it probably is interesting, but not much more than that. thanks for the comment. It is good to meet folks who have similar experiences.

This for me, is a very deep question, and in my experience the two are not mutually exclusive. I have met my fair share of so called "awakened or enlightened" people who had huge sticks up there asses, thought way to much of themselves, sat on little thrones in white silk pontificating there "Truth', while there high paying followers threw money, and many times there own bodies at these folks. But I have also seen just a few folks who did not do this, but lived simple happy lives. The one commonality with this very small group who I feel are the "real deals", is there profound sense of humor. They laugh at themselves, at life, and almost constantly have a gleam in there eyes, when they talk. A few wear rags, but one cannot help being drawn to there simple wisdom. Just my two cents.

From a zen perspective, this is the highest complement.

This reminds me of an old zen story: " A zen student approaches his teacher who is a great zen master and ask, "master, what happens after we die".. To wit the zen master says, "I don't know".. This shocks the young zen student, and he replies, "But you are a great zen master, how is it that you do not know what happens to us after we die"?........ The zen master answers, "yes, it is said that I am a great zen master, but I am not yet a dead zen master". LOL. just love that one.

For one thing, this was a funny reproduction of what Plato said. sometimes we folks in the so-called "spiritual searching crowed" forget to just laugh. Or maybe I am to old to get young folks sense of humor which might be the case......... but, this was an Allegory , to wit, : " Definition of allegory 1: the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existencea writer known for his use of allegoryalso : an instance (as in a story or painting) of such expressionThe poem is an allegory of love and jealousy. 2: a symbolic representation : EMBLEM sense 2" An allegory does not have to conform to logical rational investigation. it is more of a ,,what do you modern kids use now days........ yes a Meme, like a picture that gives a sense of things. Kind of like Picasso's bull did not look like a real bull, but gave a subjunctive impression. hard to enplane. thanks for the comments.

Same here. While my background is soto zen, later modified because I wanted to see why I was having lucid dreams and found Tibetan dream and sleep yoga, (which, if I am not wrong is from the Bon shamanic tradition) , I don't know of do much other than the above mentioned as far as Tibetan Buddhism goes. But from what I have seen, so far, there comes a time when we have to stop reading and talking, (like I am doing right now)LOL and just sit, or practice. that seems to be where the rubber meets the road.