Zen Pig

This is kind of a weird question. Cannot find anything on line, or in books. when I sit in meditation, I sit zen style with eyes about half open, for various reasons, but when I wake up at night, or early in the morning, (I wake up at 4 am to meditate), I usually lay in bed, for a few min's in a kind of meditative state, with eyes closed. This was a kind of intuitive thing that I discovered, and found that if one stays in a open state of mind without thinking, images form in the closed eyes. Starts with colors merging, and then changing to shapes, images, and then other life forms. then changing to very clear pictures. The closest I can get to finding information on this, is what western lucid dreamers call W.I L D or Waking Induced Lucid dreaming, where one of the techniques is to do this exercise with closed eyes, when one first goes to bed in a meditative state. Not trying to accomplish lucid dreaming, as my dreams are already lucid.......... But this WILD technique is the only other one i have heard of. Any information or experience in this matter? Of course, I have been around the block long enough to not become attached or indulge in this kind of thing. Like most odd things i have experience, i just watch them, and let them go, but this is interesting none the less.

First of all, while I do expect a few "answers" to this rhetorical question, and while some might have both validity and lack of validity, I do not throw rocks in glass houses, meaning that I have no idea, but this is something that is kind of tickling my soul a bit. My journey so far has addressed a large percentage of my own negative thinking just by the practice of daily sitting and walking meditation. With that said, I, along with the large majority of humanity still have negative thoughts. This is very interesting to me. I would conservatively think that at least 90 percent of humanity's daily thinking is negative. While I have read that the majority of folks who look into this idea, believe that it is natural for humans to have negative thoughts for what ever reason, of which there are many. And while there might be some truth to this, I don't really buy into the easy dismissal of negative thinking being our original nature. To sum up, this is something that I am really looking into, and I have no illusion that the answer will be obvious, until it is obvious. such is the nature of the "Ah-ha" moment.

I was looking into esoteric literature on the web, and came across this study published in NIH / Frontiers of Psychology peer reviewed journal about experiences of seeing images in meditation. While they had to keep what little explanation for this phenomena in the realm of the western rational reductionist religious world view, I am amazed that the western world is actually taking meditation seriously to the point of studying it, validating it and publishing findings. Will wonders never cease. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3879457/

Hmmmmmm. sounds interesting, but if offered to me, I would say, "No Thanks". It's not that I don't find this sort of thing intriguing, But like the old saying goes, "Man's got to know his limitations" And I do not do well with to much power. Like life of just hiking in the hills and spending time with family.

The only kinds of "deeper meditation" I have seen, and played with just a bit was Tumo, simple Neigung, reverse breathing, what some call Buddha breathing, and breath of fire, and so on. I still do most of these kinds of meditation, but am not focused on any outcome, and always start with over an hour of simple sitting From my limited experience I have seen a couple of things. First of all, in most mystical/spiritual traditions, the very first lesson, even the very simple ones , hold all the "secrets" of the path. Second, and this relates to "dangerous" practices, that could harm people, this is mostly because we are seeking power or control rather than seeing our complete inseparable connection to everything. (or as the old saying goes, "be careful for what you pray for), from what I have seen this wanting power or control or the changing of our lives, comes from deep seated fear, which can lead to all kinds of shitty outcomes. And yes, a good teacher should be able to see someone's intent in getting into this kind of practice. Saw this all the time in martial arts and this is one of the reasons a good school will work with a new student for years in order to see the kind of person he/she is, and also see how there ability develops before they teach the real hard core stuff. Years ago, I made the mistake of telling a couple of young men that there was a spot that one can strike and make them piss and shit themselves at the same time. They bugged me for years to show them this spot, but I knew that they were way too young and immature to be given this technique. I even told them that this was a very dangerous technique because you are striking a chakra spot, and it could cause all kinds of damage. The same can be said about some of the meditation techniques.

yes, this is precisely why I try to shy away from words like "awakened or enlightened". In my limited experience, it so far seems that our journey is on going and infinite. without a destination or a final goal. I have also seen many folks who have had some kind of experience, or experiences, and once they claim, "I am there, I made it, I am done", there ego starts to re-emerge taking control of what might have been a deep experience, and they end up being douchebags. IMO Lastly, I personalty don't try to judge some else's idea of an "awaking experience" and I try not to comment on my personal experiences. this way leads to useless argument. Kind of like arguing on what chicken taste like. we all agree on the word "chicken" for the most part, but we all can never know exactly how someone else experiences the taste of chicken. that's probably why some folks like it and some don't.

The breaking up of short term meditation has been of interest to me. From my experience, for the first few years of sitting, it is difficult to really get into an open state in 20 minutes, and I had to start with around 40 or 45 min's if I remember correctly, and work to an hour, at first. this longer time helped me drop into what ever I needed to drop into. But maybe folks who do 20 min's do just fine. I suppose it is different for different folks, but if one is having trouble letting go, or getting into the so called zone, then I would suggest trying to connect the two 20 min sitting times into a 40 min to start. got to be able to play with it.

Well, maybe if we think that, then ok........ I do not define meditation. I just sit. I also walk the hills in our valley. hell, I sometimes get lost in looking at a puddle of rain water. (seen some freaky shit that way) I have seen so many people who rationalize why they "don't need to meditate" or why "meditation is not important", and that is fine. As the late great Shunryu Suzuki use to say, "Do or Do Not, there is no Try" (sorry to disappoint star wars fans, Yoda was not the one to coin this saying), So if one does not think meditation or sitting or this kind of path is important, then that is also fine. Hell, dance, play a sport, go for a long run. Have a good old fashion roll in the hay with the one you love. that is living in the moment! its all the same after a while. IMO.

yes, we have been hooking up Tibetan meditators to bio feed back machines since the 70's. I use to work in a biofeedback lab as a tech back in the day. interesting stuff. thanks. My old organic chemistry professor told his new students that if they gave Wikipedia as a reference in there papers, they would get an automatic F. same with YouTube. But thanks for your input.

I have heard of this technique before, but having done tai chi for over 10 years, (modified yang form, full yang form, chen form,) etc. it is about physical connection, of aligning and relaxing your body structure, dropping your center, and letting you body move as one unit, starting from the soles of the feet, up the legs to the lower spine, and transferred through the waist, into the shoulders, (the most difficult transition) and into the hands,/finger tips. it sounds simple, but we are conditioned to move like a robot, one segment at a time. so transferring energy is both very physical, and also comes from a kind of connecting our body in a mindful way through practice. Of course, there are more esoteric forms of energy transfer, but i would not worry about that, as just learning to connect the body, energy in a physical manner takes decades of daily work. My suggestion for anyone taking any kind of Martial art, is to not get in a hurry. the best , deepest lessons are in the basic forms. relax, take your time and focus, and above all Have Fun! . good luck.

If meditation works as a way to relax, then that is wonderful. If meditation becomes deeper for others, that is also wonderful. half an hour is also wonderful. hell, 5 min's a day is wonderful. From my experience, and I might be kind of dense, I had to start out with an hour a day, until I worked up to 3 hours a day, every day, but I get that this is not everyone's cup of tea. I always try to relate to what folks feel right doing in the moment. some people like to take a half hour walk several times a week , and they feel better, and have some good health experiences. Others like to hit the gym, run, walk lift weights, do MA for much more time. one is not better than the other. we must find our own balance. simple stuff. Our human tendency is to believe that if we do not have the same experiences as someone else, then by definition, they are delusional, and we are on the right track. We are just walking each other home. good luck

Having worked for several branches of government, including research, I don't think there is some kind of organised conspiratorial program going on, for the simple reason that most government agency's could not find there ass's with both hands. LOL. I do however see how firm our western rational mechanistic belief is. If the researchers did not use accepted verbiage, this study would not get published. But I do tend to agree with your comment that most spiritual things that come to the western world do get corrupted, turned into a profit scam, changed to agree with our preexisting belief system, and so on, until one could not recognize the original teachings, this has happened to Zen, Advaita, shamanism, and other ancient systems.

Having come from a zen background, I had to at some point drop all the technical descriptions of walking meditation. With that said, I walk in our mountains about 12 miles a week. I don't try to do anything, simply observe life as it unfolds as I travel. as far as foot placement, I enjoy walking on ice and snow in the winter, as I become completely aware of my feet, where and how they are placed. walking on ice will keep one in the moment or they will end up on there ass! As far as I have come to understand walking meditation, it is a transition off the cushion. one learns to carry the practice through out the day, which seems to be the goal of sitting or walking meditation. good luck

Indeed.

yes. I worked in health care and research for years. back in the day, I had to crawl up into the ceiling vents to bring out a necked young woman who crawled up into the interstitial space and talk to her/ help her out. she was covered with shit........... so yes, but then again who was really crazy? her or the guy crawling up to pull her out because I got money for it. after all, she was not hurting or harmed, she just wanted out, and covered herself with shit so we would stay away, I would have done the same thing on reflection.

Indeed, but working with "normal" people takes a surgeons hand.

wow. interesting. how do you know that she had delusional thoughts? walk me through this. I mean in a real scientific way. to make an analogy, if one ask me how a computer works, I can go from boolen logic, to hexadecimal to basic language, then to the hardware such as tethrahedalicly bound amophous semi conductors, to TLL (Transistor Transistor logic), or now days, PLC (Program logic control), to something folks jack off to on their display. so in that vein, walk me through how you map the brain, to determine that this woman is sick or crazy, or delusional. Or maybe this is something you learned in a book, and have never had direct experience with. have you ever seen something that most people would say, "It is an illusion" or not there"? have you ever heard voices that no one else ever heard? or is this just a belief that you learned? not saying this is good or bad. just rhetorical question for both you and me, to sit with. It is always good for me to challenge my beliefs.

wow. very interesting. we have prayer flags out side of our home for years. never got how they worked. This video is very alien to my culture, for the most part. Only by learning a little about Chinese medicine, can I understand any of it. Just a couple of comments so far. I have always wondered on a deep level about the "inherent sin" or "inherent blindness or muddy water" of the human soul. It is this almost universal belief that we are born being flawed. I have seen a lot of new born babies, and never saw one born with sin, or flaws. curious. The idea that we , by nature are some how blind or flawed is something both western and eastern, but not necessary deep hunter gather tribal . Seems the closer we get to the earth, to the actual living with mother earth, the less we see ourselves as some how flawed , don't know why that is, but I digress. Damaged Bla sounds right to me. The Mu hunehen or bad tightly connected part of the soul connected to the physical body, that can become a "bad spirit" is very similar to the Hopi tradition of the so called "ego part " that disconnects after death, and represents all of our egotistic greed, selfishness, and other negative human potential. amazing that the Bon and Hopi beliefs are so connected. This is why in the Hopi culture one should never touch a dead body at death, because this part of us can invade a living human and cause damage. great video. thanks

While I enjoy a lot of these text, it seems that they are much like text, sayings, books on Zen. In other words, one only "gets" it, when they get it. From my experience, no matter how well someone tries to explain the transcendent, It never fails to either fall short of the real experience, or more likely give folks a false mental impression of "what it is, or what it is like". This can sometimes do more harm than good by creating a kind of belief in how folks think this transcendence should be like or look like. Tjhen many spend much more time arguing and talking about it, then just sitting with it. Of course, once one has had an "ah-ha" moment, or moments, then reading these kinds of things can be cathartic in that one sees the common threads of personal experience. just my two cents.

for me, this is where vedanta and zen diverge. In Zen, we look for the very simple "suchness" of life. nothing is left out, to say, "I am not that", while a great tool for self realization, gets kind of fucked up by folks, especially in the west who develop a belief about these statements that were designed to start one on the path, to shake up our long held beliefs. For me, so far, and that can always change, I am memories, relationships, mind, wind, rain, sun, earth, everything. If I divide "me" from these things, then this is duality by definition. Everything, is both an inseparable part of the "all", and at the same time unique. weird shit.

good call. that is why I am not in a "school" or religion, or belief system. For me, and all I can speak to is my experience, life seems , so far to me more than "black or white, this or that, up or down,,,,,,,, " you get my point. Once I am locked into a box of belief, then the delight of the journey stops.

I have come to see, that Zen , like many spiritual traditions, develop due to different people's character. i find Zen straight forward (even when it's not), the cutting away of our ideas about life, and a direct slap upside the head. Many others find there path in spiritual forms like bhakti yoga, which is more heart centered, and emotive. Or the sufi direction which is a combination of both. It seems like the old saying goes, "there are many paths to the top of the mountain" comes to mind, and our own personality gravitates to ones that rings true for us; good post.

wow. you don't screw up in inches do you? LOL. the use of earth grounding sounds good. I have done that when I had "zen sickness" which is a similar experience. My personal take is to be careful asking spirits for a quick fix, or for that matter trying to get something for nothing. like the man once said, "there is no free lunch in the universe". good luck

I also get this kind of light show, and if I just lay there and watch it can turn into other beings, or landscapes. this is not uncommon. In lucid dreaming they call this state, W.I.L.D or Wake Induced Lucid Dreaming. One just watches the lights without trying to figure them out, or develop a belief of what they are, and simply watch. then the dream state starts while you are in-between awakening and sleep. at least that is my experience. don't over analyze it. what good does that do anyway? LOL

Hello brunocbbc. only a couple of suggestions from an old man. 1) if you are a beginner, start out with simple sitting meditation. I come from a zen background, but have also had kundalini experiences, so from my experience basic sitting meditation is about the same in most traditions. because it is simple, don't underestimate it. Most of the amazing things I have experienced were so simple, that we tend to miss them. Here is a good link to get started. https://www.lionsroar.com/category/how-to/ Don't do meditation to "get or achieve" anything, do it with a sense of curiosity, and the humor of a child. 2) Be careful of folks, or books, or YouTube videos, who try to tickle your ass claiming that they can send you spiritual power, or show you how to become enlightened or live forever. Many of these people are fake teachers who take advantage of people searching. Meditation moves in inches, if one is in a hurry, they might want to develop powers, or insight quickly. In my experience, I have never seen this end well. Good Luck