Still_Waters

A few years ago, when my niece was teaching English in Seoul, South Korea, I decided to go visit her in Korea. She asked me if I would like to spend a couple of days at the monastery of the Grand Zen Master, the Golgul Temple, in Gyangju (South Korea). I jumped at the opportunity but her e-mail request was rejected with the simple statement that the Temple did not accept tourists. When I followed up with a description of my background, however, we got an immediate welcome e-mail to which we responded in the affirmative. Since my visit was at the time of the Korean New Year, the students were given time off for the holidays. At the monastery during our visit, there were subsequently a number of young children whose ages seemed to range from about 8 or 9 to the teens and older. We hung out with one monk in particular whose English was excellent and who was explaining in detail some of the activities at the Temple. One experience that I have never forgotten was watching these young kids being instructed in self-therapy using mindfulness meditative techniques which were very consistent with one of the prevailing therapies, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), in the United States therapeutic community. (CBT is actually based somewhat on Buddhist mindfulness techniques.) Having a clinical social work background myself (in addition to my primary corporate career), I was able to discuss what I saw with therapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists. All were duly impressed with what these youngsters were doing and, when I mentioned this on another thread, it was suggested that this be written up in more detail in a separate thread. That is what I am doing now. Using the ABC terminology of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, this is what I observed. The youngsters would identify an Activating Event (A) in their lives that had an unsatisfactory Emotional Consequence (C) which had clearly created unwanted difficulties for them either with family, teachers, friends, or others. They would then go into meditation to discover the Underlying Belief (B) that had triggered the sequence of actions in the aftermath of the Activating Event. They were uncannily insightful in identifying the thought behind the action as well as the thought behind that thought and so on. They were equally insightful in how to adjust the Underlying Belief (B) to ensure a healthier, more satisfactory Emotional Consequence (C). Monks would assist them in their endeavors but NOT as therapists. The monks were available as sounding boards and counselors whenever the youngsters encountered obstacles that they were having difficulty overcoming. In listening to the youngsters discuss their findings with the monk, who was translating into English for me, I was really impressed with their insights into the thought processes that were translating into problematic actions as well as their insights into how to address the situation. Since I only sat in on a few of the consultations (probably with the more accomplished youngsters), I could not assess overall results but what I saw from the kids, especially the ones under 10 years old was truly remarkable by western therapeutic standards. Being connected to the therapeutic community in NYC, it was very reassuring to hear very positive comments about this eastern venture into what is essentially self-therapy training for youngsters at a very early age. On another note, the group meditations at the monastery followed a more traditional pattern. We awoke at 4 AM to the sound of a stick tapping near our sleeping quarters. If that did not wake us up, a LOUD GONG could be heard at about 4:10 AM that would wake anyone up. By 4:30 AM, everyone assembled at the Great Meditation Hall. Promptly at 4:30 AM, kirtan started and lasted for approximately 30 minutes. (Even though the language was Korean, it was easy to pick up the short mantra-like phrase that was used. In this manner, within 30 minutes, one's thoughts were reduced to one so that the one remaining mantra-thought could be more easily eliminated in order to enter the silence.) At 5 AM, the hall suddenly went into complete silence, as expected, for 30 minutes. At 5:30 AM, we all followed the monks up a short incline as we walked around in a circle until the head monk dispatched one monk to initiate the walking meditation through the wooded mountain area. About 10 feet later, he dispatched another monk who followed. One after another, he dispatched monks and disciples and the pattern became obvious. Follow the leader in sequence and in silence as we walked through nature in the outside world. One did not have to think about where to walk or what path to follow. In silence and without thoughts, one just followed the person immediately ahead of us. At 6 AM, the walking meditation ended at the dining area where we got on line and helped ourselves to a vegetarian breakfast. We ate in silence but could go back for more as needed. That was the morning routine and the silence was awesome for starting the day. That's probably enough to start this thread. I hope that some of this is helpful in some way to whomever may read this post.

As usual, Steve, your posts are excellent. The Imagination approach is indeed quite worthwhile, and many do use that approach but it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy in some cases as one can easily blur the boundaries between imagination and reality. However, the second stage of the practice, as described, is well-communicated as one would expect from the Dalai Lama. "But in the second stage of practice, ... you actually bring about such a dissolution, not just with imagination, but in terms of reality. You bring about such a dissolution, and at a certain level of this practice the clear light will manifest." Ironically, this was unexpectedly the subject of a discussion of a very similar nature last night with a Kabbalistic Hassidic Rabbi and his group in nearby Brooklyn. The terminology was different, of course, but the understanding of the process was virtually identical as this is a very common practice across the various traditions as I had mentioned here in the past. That is what prompted me to come back briefly to see how this thread was progressing if at all. As your post also noted, diet is very very important as well. That was discussed last night as well. Very good post ! Thanks for sharing ! You bring so much to this site.

I love what you wrote and this indeed has become a very good thread for "rants". Although stream-of-consciousness discussions can sometimes seem a bit chaotic, a lot of good revelations often come from what might initially be perceived as tangential. I agree with you completely that a major part of spiritual growth is indeed related to our interactions and "our connections - with other people, our teachers and students, community, nature, and ourselves". In watching the thoughts and images that preoccupy us in dealing with others, one learns a lot about one's self and thus gains insights into how to maintain one's equilibrium even in the most trying of times. I actually like listening to alternative perspectives as you suggested --- both traditional and unorthodox --- as everyone seems to have a piece in the puzzle of life. I have discovered that one apparently irrelevant stream-of-consciousness comment can often prove to be a connecting link to resolving something for myself in particular and/or spiritual aspirants in general. However, as I have often said, I weary of theory without the theorist being able to translate the theory into a practice, to discuss results of that practice, and to indicate in some way how others can validate the theory. A common question in Zen "dharma battles" relates to how can one verify any theory or position that is presented. I may seem opinionated at times, but I do rely in many cases on direct verifiable experiences and stand firm on them. At other times, I state clearly and unequivocally when I am still in the process of investigating a theory which I have not yet confirmed via direct experience and welcome comments. Relating direct experiences is my way of demonstrating how I came to certain conclusions while others here have openly attributed that to wanting to talk about myself. Nothing could be further from the truth. What resonated most with me, however, was your statement: "I would love to see this place become more of a community, oriented towards mutual support and genuine camaraderie, rather than a warehouse of information, opinion, and ego. I can recall many instances of trying to offer some helpful information from an alternative perspective and meeting with nothing but denigration and criticism because my perspective didn't align with the "OP" or with a particular participant's paradigm or opinion." Reflecting on this, I thought about my own spiritual mentor and I don't think that this objective can be accomplished here on this site. My spiritual mentor would not discuss spiritual topics over the phone or in writing or even during face-to-face meals. She would only discuss spiritual matters from the dais when she had the undivided attention of all involved and could observe here-and-now reactions on every level. That is not possible here in an online forum. As I re-read that portion of your post, I started to wonder what I am doing here where direct experiences are denigrated while quoting dead gurus with no validation of theories has become the norm. I then shifted my focus and realized that, since I live in NYC, there are many high-quality SMALL groups that I attend here which, as you suggested, do constitute "more of a community oriented towards mutual support and genuine camaraderie rather than a warehouse of information, opinion, and ego." In those groups, we do exactly what I do here. We discuss practices, methodologies for validating theories under consideration, and any results of the practices. If some think that I am confrontational here, it is nothing compared to the challenging questions posed to all of us in our face-to-face meetings. Some very intimate details are raised which would likewise not be ideal in a forum like this where they would be exposed to denigrating ridicule. Having re-read your post, especially this part, I became resolved to go once again to four such meetings tomorrow (Thursday), Friday, Sunday and Tuesday as that is probably the best place for me based on what is either directly stated or implied above. Your stream-of-consciousness "rant" above on a seemingly tangential subject has triggered a realization in me which translated into action regarding where best to spend my time in the future. My sense is that some of the posters here will be delighted if not outwardly thrilled if I minimize my presence here in the future as I am now inclined to do. It's not about winning debates but in discovering Truth and, when someone demonstrates that my spiritual paradigm or practice has potential problems, then I change as I have done in the past. However, grandiose statements with no support other than the words of dead gurus is generally not what works best with me, as should be obvious to all now. Hence, I've decided to start minimizing time spent here if not eliminating it altogether but I may still wander in from time to time as there are posters here for whom I have the utmost respect and highly value their contributions with you being one of them.

Acknowledged. Our positions are clear and well-defined. Feel free to ignore all of my posts, as you have duly indicated.

I hear you !

I agree completely with what you wrote. Like yourself, "I have little interest in theory and intellectual understanding so debate doesn't turn me on. It's not my place to try and convince anyone of anything, just my option to make an offering if conditions seem favorable. " However, when some one denigrates a common practice by calling it a "myth", I respond very strongly as you have seen lest such people shake the foundations of those who are earnestly engaged in the practice. That's where I draw the line and will continue to draw the line there despite the "warnings" of that clique. Like Joe Miller and my own spiritual mentor, I can become quite ornery when that line is crossed but not quite as ornery as the consummate Joe himself. LOL Having said that, I hope that you do get the book about Joe Miller as he is probably the most outrageous, unorthodox mystic I've ever encountered. The stories in the book are absolutely hilarious and irreverently reverent in a most unique way. Joe was in vaudeville and was at heart an entertainer .. but what an entertainer ! He combined depth with humor and behaviors that would readily shake people out of their intellectualism. Joe enjoyed bursting into one of his wife's "Songs To Live By" from time to time. "Ignore the opinions of others. Let the rumors of your foolishness spread far and wide. None if it matters in the least. Busy yourself with the burning of all of the furniture in the house of the mind. When the job is finished, dynamite the foundations and bulldoze the lot." "Then, you'll be ready to meditate," he would remark afterward. In "conscious sleep", when practiced seriously and effectively, one burns all the furniture in the house of the mind and then dynamites the foundations and bulldozes the lot.

In the book, "The Message of Our Time" (written by Pir Vilayat Khan about the life of his father, the Sufi Mystic, Hazrat Inayat Khan), there is an entire chapter on "Die Before Death". Since what is written there has already been described in sufficient detail both in my posts and in those of others here relevant to conscious sleep, it should suffice to quote this one passage from the book. (Incidentally, I studied under Pir Vilayat Khan for two years and was able to discuss such subjects with him personally.) "If one is able to retain the continuity of consciousness over the border from the physical world to the dream and vice versa, one will practice dying before death. This is taught by the Sufis as a preparation for death rather like the Bardo Thodol (the Tibetan Book of the Dead) and the Egyptian Book of the Dead and other similar works. In fact, this is precisely what meditation is." It is good to see Jeff write that "it is possible to maintain awareness during sleep". Hopefully, OP and the cadre who follow him and who "love" everything he writes here will similarly conclude that "the Myth of Conscious Awareness in Sleep" is most assuredly NOT a myth at all but is in fact a very common practice among those who truly seek to know themselves. It baffles me that one who does not fully understand the three basic states of man (deep sleep, dream, waking) through direct observation and experience can even venture to claim knowledge of that which lies beyond other than to quote others. While second-hand information is most definitely useful as it spurs one on to investigate the Truth, it is clearly no substitute for actually validating the information and thus knowing for one's self through direct experience. It seems best at this point to proceed deeper beyond the basics and into the practice itself with those here who apparently do understand the process and the practice. "Conscious sleep" is obviously a preliminary practice that facilitates knowing one's self through the emergence of both conscious and unconscious tendencies during the dream formation process so that those conditioned tendencies/urges can be weeded out and one can become firmly established in that which lies beyond thoughts and images. Any comments on this subject would be most welcome. Continuing with "The Message of Our Time" since I'm on that subject now, legitimate questions regarding the process of validation are raised as one would expect. "But what proof do I have that the phantasmagoria of dreams is as real as physical matter? Dreams are elusive and evanescent like cloud formations, whereas the house is still there when I wake up in the morning. Actually, you can return to that dream house night after night. No doubt the most convincing answer is to be found in astral travel, because one can check whether the astral traveler saw the furniture in the place you changed it to in order to test him (although one could account for that by telepathy). But the astral traveler has a very definite experience of displacing himself in space, including sometimes a bird's eye view of the landscape." Although I have had sporadic verifiable experiences in "remote viewing" (a term that is widely used in scientific circles and one which I personally prefer to astral travel), I fully acknowledge that I cannot do it consciously at will. I readily concede that the mental aspects of the Cosmic Mind have commanded more of my attention than the physical. It should come as no surprise to many here that I attend a meditation group with senior members of the Edgar Cayce organization in order to glean whatever I can through unpublished documents regarding Cayce's experiences with the Akashic Records (the Book of Life, or whatever other terms one wishes to associate with the Cosmic Mind). Cayce, as everyone probably knows, is one of the most documented psychics of our time despite some of his predictions of the future being somewhat off. (One learns not to predict the dynamically unfolding "future", as my spiritual mentor advised me many years ago.) I've noticed that, once one perfects the practice of conscious sleep to at least some degree, the mind becomes firmly established in complete and utter silence for longer and longer periods of time. One can feel one's self soaring above the self-limiting little separatist gestalt commonly called the ego and into the metaphorical sky of consciousness. At first, one tries to navigate and explore. However, eventually, one realizes that one should just abide in that stillness and peace with no expectations for "results" until what is important is spontaneously revealed. In a future post, I may give a verifiable example of my first "remote mental activity" experience which stirred a skeptical me into taking action that ultimately saved a young man's life. It is my understanding now that whatever is important to be revealed --- whether it requires action or not --- will be revealed in the proper moment. Can I do this consciously? No. Does it happen? Yes. When it happens and action is required, the validity of the "remote mental activity" (for lack of better words) becomes evident. It is my understanding that this faculty is inherent in all who have a pure heart in that particular moment. Conscious sleep is therefore the gateway to greater possibilities that can be validated. This is in complete accordance with the "Thy Will Be Done" Principle from the Christian Lord's Prayer, as one connects with the "higher power" and acts unerringly in the best interests of the Totality with no ulterior motives and no expectation of a return. (Incidentally, as a side note to the Kashmir Shaivism adherents here, it would appear that this is actually very consistent with at least one aspect of that sect. "The Shaiva Siddhanta goal of becoming an ontologically distinct Shiva (through Shiva's grace) was replaced by recognizing oneself as Shiva who, in Kashmir Shaivism's monism, is the entirety of the universe ." In the manner described, one is thus inspired to act in the best interests of the greater Self which, in Kashmir Shaivism's monism, is indeed the entirety of the universe whether we call it Shiva or otherwise.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_Shaivism Any comments on this subject would be most welcome. P.S. I just ordered and received another book, "Meditation and the Bible" by Kabbalistic Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. I have read two of his books and his depth is incredible. He points out that there are only a limited number of ways to approach the mind in meditation, and that all traditions utilize virtually the same gamut of methodologies albeit with different symbologies. I've also read the book "Kabbalah" written by his disciple, Perle Epstein, who is a great-great----great descendant of the legendary Baal Shem Tov. In that book, the writings and sayings of great Kabbalists are presented with obvious parallels to the eastern traditions that we discuss on this site. (As I've said many times in the past, the major traditions at their deepest levels all seem to point in the same direction.) Rabbi Kaplan's book is presented as a "radical interpretation of the Bible" which focuses to a large extent on previously unpublished writings related to the elevated states of consciousness exhibited by the prophets. (Jeremias is actually my favorite in this respect as his well-documented prophecies were clearly fulfilled at the time of the Destruction of the First Temple and the subsequent Babylonian Captivity). Rabbi Kaplan's son still lives in Brooklyn and, after reading this latest book, I may try to get an audience with him to learn more about what he knows that was left unsaid.

Perfect. It is good to hear you say that "it is possible to maintain awareness during sleep". Thank you.

You might want to check out "The Great Song, the Life and Teachings of Joe Miller". He was an outrageous American mystic who rubbed shoulders with the best of them in his highly unorthodox manner and language. He referred to us all as "wild-assed sparks of the infinite" to give you an idea of his use of language. He didn't take any money for public speaking or private consoling. He spoke for free and would talk to anyone who was interested. Relevant to the topic at hand, there is a short chapter in the book on "Waking, Dreaming, and Deep Sleep". He specifically states: "If you get to a point where you can keep your consciousness focused, you can go through the whole period of falling asleep, dreaming, , deep sleep and back awake again without losing that consciousness. Now, when you can do that, you're cooking on the big burner." Joe was well known in spiritual circles for his outrageous behavior. At the Masonic Auditorium, Krishnamurti asked a purely rhetorical question about love. Joe boomed an irreverently reverent answer down from the rafters. At the Herbst Theater, he hollered something at Ram Dass. Ram Dass closed his eyes, let the eruption of sound cascade through him and smiled warmly, saying "Hello, Joe." Once after an empowerment, Joe challenged the formidable Chogyam Trungpa. When Joe tried to decline a gift (of flowers) and give the flowers back to him (Muktananda), Muktananda said, "No, one must always give offerings to a saint". Joe's life story is fascinating and his wisdom ranks among the best in a highly unorthodox manner. Joe's understanding was gleaned from many traditions but he considered Ramana's teachings to be the exquisite culmination of the quest, the penultimate expression of the divine wisdom for our age. Whenever he encountered a "REAL ONE", there would be a mystical , non-verbal exchange of energy, an understanding that flowed both ways. HOWEVER, if the atmosphere was stale, staid, phony or overly intellectual Joe would detonate one of his incendiary devices --- but his intent was to revivify, not destroy. In such cases, Joe would attempt to "rattle their cages", or seize the opportunity to show the audience something, and maybe send a shock wave through it. He didn't mind making of fool of himself if he could stir a few people on to look a little deeper. Since I have high respect for you based on what I have seen of your posts, I mention this so that you can now better understand why I responded so strongly to OP's completely ungrounded assertions presented as facts regarding "The Myth of Conscious awareness in Sleep". When some one initiates a thread openly characterizing a practice performed by many as a "Myth" while obviously knowing little or nothing about the practice, it cannot simply be skipped over. As Joe would most assuredly have done, one must "rattle their cages" and the cages of their entire intellectual clique lest they damage the practice of many who read their nonsense and thus associate their negativity with the practice. I have no concerns about being banned from this site for my strong comments. My spiritual mentor was excommunicated from a Shankaracharya order for advocating female equality and debated her position so successfully in the public forum that the order requested her to return. She refused since she did want to go back to that nonsense. Like Joe and my spiritual mentor, I feel likewise. I have noticed subsequent posts by OP and noted that one poster characterized one of those posts as "juvenile". I, however, have decided to give the kindest and most charitable response possible --- NONE. Let everyone here decide for themselves whether conscious awareness in sleep is a myth or not. So be it.

I was introduced to DeMello by a Jesuit priest who knew DeMello personally. Apparently, he is as impressive in person as he is in his eloquent, insightful writings. It would have been nice to have met him personally.

I too would be interested in hearing Jeff comment more about his practice and a separate topic does seem appropriate. As you suggested, I too might start a separate thread about the young boys at the monastery of the Grand Zen Master in Gyongju, South Korea, whose practice I related to psychologists, clinical social workers, and even psychiatrists. They found the practice to be extremely advanced especially for kids who were under 10 years old. It was a form of meditative self-therapy very consistent with Buddhist mindfulness which, of course, is a guiding principle in the modern therapeutic Cognitive Behavioral Therapy methodology.

As you duly noted, one of the key aspects of Karma yoga is that one loses one's self (the little separatist self) in selfless service to others. Your statement is very concise but nonetheless very powerful.

While your terminology may differ from that to which I am accustomed, I do recall a certain fear when initially experimenting with conscious sleep specifically in reference to "blowing out of the physical seed atom" (using your terminology) and wondering whether one can come back to the physical after experiencing the transcendental aspects of happening. There are recommended safeguards. Nonetheless, you are absolutely correct in saying that "I would make sure that you know what you're doing before crossing that bridge! " In the classic story about Shankaracharya leaving his body for an extended period of time (about a month) and entering the body of a king who had just died, he had completely forgotten about his previous body and his mission until the memory was awakened by hearing the chanting of his disciples. At that point, he consciously left the body of the king and returned to his body to resume the debate that had triggered this particular experiment. You raise a very good point, and I am sorry that I did not mention that earlier.

That reminds me of a similar incident when I went to the Haridwar Kumba Mela in 1998. Since the ashram was still under construction, all of us slept on the temple floor in sleeping bags. My companions told me that I fell asleep quicker than the others and was snoring. They said that they were discussing whether to wake me up to stop the snoring that was interfering with them falling asleep. They reported that, while still "asleep", I responded as follows. "I am NOT (emphasized) snoring. (pause) Wait a minute. I will check. (pause) You are right. I am snoring. I will stop." At that point, they noted that the snoring had indeed stopped but that I was still obviously "sleeping". Like yourself, I enjoy using examples where others are involved as it adds a level of objectivity to the relating of the experience.

That is an awesome statement --- "With deep practice and insight there is the possibility of charitable action with no "self" or desire engaged." At that point, things "just happen" without even thinking. I concur completely. Also, I have had many discussions about altruism and , in most "charitable" activities, there does some to be some ulterior motives involved. I agree that, ordinarily, "most charity is not quite so selfless". As for Anthony deMello, I was surprised to see you quoting him. I have two of his books, "The Song of the Bird" and "One Minute Wisdom". Both contain lots of very short stories with wise, thought-provoking morals to each story. I would highly recommend both of them.

(This was initially posted in the Buddhist section, but probably is more appropriate in this section.) I was recently introduced to Edward Selim Michael by a very spiritually-insightful Jewish woman who has hosted Quaker and Buddhist groups for as long as I have known her. I recently finished reading Michael's book, "The Law of Attention: Nada Yoga and the Way of Inner Vigilance". He clearly states that the aim of the book is "direct inner experience" and that is what attracted me to him. My own spiritual mentor of over 30 years once said, "Question everything, even what I say... and, if a teacher can't point you to the direct experiences, then go elsewhere". Edward Selim Michael seems to be such a being who points one to the direct inner experiences. I just ordered another one of Michael's books, "Obstacles to Enlightenment and Liberation", because he warns against getting into comfortable, familiar ruts and I plan to use his book as a checklist to see what tendencies I may have that could be holding me back. Michael seems to be a man who has been there and not just some one pontificating grand theories and quoting the masters but one who speaks from direct inner experiences. I wasn't sure where to post this topic but decided to post it here because, despite his yoga/meditation inclinations, " It was to Buddhism that he felt closest, but as his teaching was based on his direct experience, he did not hesitate to quote Christian, Hindu, or Sufi mystics." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Salim_Michael To get the discussion going, I will include without comment a few quotes from his book, "The Law of Attention: Nada Yoga and the Way of Inner Vigilance". (Note that I have replaced the masculine word "he" in the quotes by "one".) 1. "The aim of this book is to help seekers arrive at recognizing, through direct inner experience, their higher nature and the after-death state, the state from which they originated and to which they will return on leaving this form of existence." 2. "Without perhaps realizing it, one will then start to sleep inwardly again, thinking that one is still working by being merely satisfied with the intellectual knowledge and memory of certain limited spiritual experiences one may have had in the past." 3. "If, during meditation, this luminous expanse of consciousness becomes adulterated and diluted in the slightest degree with one's habitual state, it will then inevitably cease to be Truth." 4. "It will be readily evident to one who has practiced meditation seriously and has had enlightenment that what was right and necessary at the beginning of one's quest will no longer be right or practical later".

Keep in mind that Siva started this thread about "The Myth of Conscious Awareness in Sleep" which has been questioned by several practitioners here, including myself. That practice is common to several traditions, so the subject of that thread caught me (and apparently others) by surprise. When someone speaks that authoritatively and NEGATIVELY on a subject on which they seem to know little, it makes one question their credibility when they say "I know this as a fact" in reference to other things. The absence of any statement regarding practice, results, validation of theories, etc. makes one even more suspicious. As I said before, I weary of theory when no specifics are given regarding practice, results, and ways to validate the presented theory. Regarding Dzogchen's concept of spontaneously perfecting as stuff comes up, it is obvious that, as "stuff comes up", one can deal with it and get rid of it. The same phenomenon happens in conscious sleep and in other meditative methodologies as well. That is somewhat obvious and requires no further discussion. Now, let's shift to the practice that you introduced. Having participants bring up their deepest fears and issues is cool but, having a postgraduate degree in clinical social work which included an internship as a therapist, I'm not convinced that this is a more effective practice than the conscious sleep practice discussed in this thread. It is, of course, simpler and easier. In conscious sleep, as dreams occur, the unconscious as well as the conscious presents itself quite effectively in the sequence most conducive to addressing the underlying tendencies/urges brought to one's attention. I'm not even sure that the practice you indicated is more effective than the simple meditative practice I directly observed with kids as young as 8 or 9 years old at the monastery of the Grand Zen Master in Gyungju, South Korea. However, that is a subject for another time. In any case, you've at least introduced something in the way of practice and that is appreciated. Regarding the post of Siva's to which I responded, it was very disappointing especially in light of the subject he presented for consideration in this thread. The thread, however, turned out to be great despite the original post. Lastly, while intellectual masturbation is intellectually stimulating, theories are most assuredly no substitute for practice, discussion of practice results, and methodologies for verifying the theories that are presented as "facts" albeit with no substantiating additional info. While I read such posts from time to time and they occasionally spark some interest, I am far more interested in statements that trigger action in some way related to practice.

I weary of theory without practice. What action has this triggered in your practice, and what results have you directly experienced? Theory is nice but, when it does not translate into action and practice, it is no more than just intellectual talk.

While all that you wrote is quite interesting, I am sufficiently aware that I will never probe the depths of quantum physics as you have done nor to I intend to do so. My pathless path is to "Know Yourself" and to become as firmly established in the stillness as possible. Wilbur's compilation of mystical writings from the Nobel-Prize-winning quantum physicists and Capra's Tao of Physics (albeit geared more simplistically for the masses which include me in this respect) have served their purpose in convincing me that there are no significant contradictions between modern physics and eastern mysticism. Perhaps, that is all I need to know with scantier details than you felt necessary for your own unfolding. Despite the typo that you noted (), I do subscribe to the theory that "Silence is Golden" and have made that inner silence a significant element in my practice. It is my understanding also that Nisargadatta did not DEMONSTRATE shakti power but I do not interpret that to indicate that he had not experienced sahaja (seedless) samadhi. I recall a cute story about some one who asked Nisargadatta if he could tell the weather in New York. He responded "No" but he added that, if he wanted to do so, he could although it required special training and practice. There are some powers/siddhis that just do not command interest and it is my understanding that a sage can hold back the shakti/shaktpat at will. I have seen enough demonstrated siddhis to realize that virtually anything is possible so siddhis no longer fascinate me as they once did nor do I personally want to acquire them any longer though there was indeed interest at one time. I have seen far too many beings who demonstrate siddhis who do not seem to be enlightened by any means and might actually be demonic in some cases. Nonetheless, seeing those who demonstrate siddhis has convinced me that virtually anything is possible. The quest for siddhis, however, seems to be an unnecessary distraction though some may manifest naturally with no efforts whatsoever as needed. My sense of Ramana is as you stated and I too feel that he meditated years after his nirvikalpa samadhi experience at the age of 16 but obviously do not know for sure what was actually happening with Ramana at that time. As for healings, I am often suspicious of those who do healings publicly for prolonged periods of time especially if they do it for money. However, as in the case of the instantaneous multiple-personality-disorder "cures" and my own NDE, I am very aware that the mind is a major component in healings. This is one area that I have researched without drawing attention to myself. Thanks for your input. I am now shifting away from more detailed research into quantum physics and proceeding more with the process of "Know Yourself" and becoming firmly established in the stillness. My sense is that this is most appropriate for me at this point in time. Thanks again for your input.

The book I mentioned was EDITED by Ken Wilbur. I read with interest your connection with Ken Wilbur but the book that I recommended merely is a composite of the writings of the Nobel-Prize winning quantum physicists and all Ken Wilbur did was to put them together into one book. The writings really have nothing to do with Ken Wilbur and are quite interesting, especially Schroedinger's comments. It's good to hear that you experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi as that gives one a glimpse of the Reality. Of course, it is temporary and the next step is to move on towards Sahaja (seedless) Samadhi and that's one of the benefits of my "conscious sleep" practice. It identifies inner pressures from both the conscious and the subconscious that trigger dream formation. Once identified, they can be addressed either through yoga (discrimination) or bhoga (indulgence to get them out of the way). In any case, that's what I do as, one by one, I try to eliminate them so that virtually nothing drives me and I can surrender in the moment to that which lies beyond thoughts and guides one unerringly in the best interests of all (the Totality) with no expectation of a return. That works for me. I had not realized that " the poor people in India could not afford to be direct students of Vivekananda (and Ramakrishna) since it was too expensive." That is indeed disconcerting about the Ramakrishna order. I sometimes go to the Vedanta centers (Ramakrishna groups) in NYC and I have not experienced the expensive nature that you mentioned. However, I can't rule out that it was that way in the past. Your explorations and practices are indeed intriguing and illuminating. We all seem to take some interesting steps along the pathless path and even Buddha practiced extreme austerities before he discovered that the "Middle Way" was more appropriate. I've personally taken some interesting steps which were learning experiences in some ways but from which I backtracked to proceed in an entirely different direction. One learns through one's experiences. I have to ponder your point: "So for example in Daoist - Buddhist meditation - if a so-called spiritual guru can not sit in full lotus with ease - for as long as the person wants - then their body channels are not open and clearly they can not even achieve real Nirvikalpa Samadhi!! " In my formative years, when my spiritual mentor would say or do something that really commanded my attention (as she often did), I would sit in the lotus position absorbed in meditation without being aware of the elapsed time and only after I came out of the meditation did I realize that 8-9 hours had passed in that state. Now, however, I rarely do sitting meditations and was not really surprised when I saw a quote from Ramana Maharshi saying something to the effect that sitting in meditation at prescribed times for specific times is only for the merest of spiritual novices (by his standards, I assume. LOL) While Ramana may indeed talk about visualizing the light on the right side of the heart, that practice never resonated with me as my chakra meditations guided me further up to the ajna and then to the sahasrara. When Ramana Maharshi spoke to a Jewish group, he stressed the importance of "Be still and know that I am God" (Psalm 46:10). In his "Talks", he defined "Be Still" as the I AM with no other thoughts. (Of course, this is an intermediate step as he added that "that which is (eventually) no longer even says I AM.) That resonated more for more than the heart visualization. However, I readily concede that "different strokes for different folks" is applicable even to spiritual aspirants. LOL I agree with you when you say "all we can do is continual purification and harmonization of the body-mind-spirit-Emptiness (formless awareness)." The points on the guna, however, seem to have varying levels from the gross to the subtle and hence require more thought. Nisargadatta Maharaj indicated that the gunas on the subtlest levels as one spirals up towards self-realization are (1) inspiration (sattva) of varying degrees of purity, of course; (2) activity (rajas) as one acts on the inspiration; and (3) consolidation (tamas) as one becomes firmly established in the realization and is ready for the next one in the cycle. That resonated with me relative to the gunas. I am familiar with Karl Pribram and the holographic model but I have never heard of Eddie Oshins. I will have to check him out before commenting on that section of your post. I must think more about your comments on healing as it is a well-known fact that people with "multiple personality disorders" (now called a dissociative disorder) can have a serious dis-ease like diabetes with one personality but it disappears immediately with the emergence of another personality only to reappear once again with the re-emergence of the dis-eased personality. Having had a near death experience years ago when I emerged SYMPTOM-FREE from a three day "irreversible coma" (doctors predicted extensive brain damage and organ damage if I survived), I have studied the process of healing and the mind-body connection. As a matter of fact, I recently received an e-mail from abroad from a fellow with whom I had worked meditatively. In it , he told me that his degenerative incurable neurological disease is actually reversing itself and that a television documentary is being planned regarding his positive outlook and remarkable results. Healing is indeed an absorbing phenomenon and one that I have studied carefully without drawing attention to myself. My spiritual mentor would similarly recommend a practice and thus facilitate the dis-eased one becoming a light unto him/her self and a healer for him/her self. I once asked a renowned healer in India how much of the healing was due to him and how much to the dis-eased person. After staring at me for an uncomfortably long time, he finally said that 70% of the healing was due to the patient himself and that the 30% which he contributed as a "healer" was convincing the patient that healing was indeed possible. The specific methodology was not particularly important as long as the receiver believed that it would work. Hence, he used many different modalities depending on the belief system of the patient. I am similarly inclined though I realize that some illnesses serve a purpose and must run their course. This leads us to a deeper discussion on the nature of life and death but that is a discussion for another time. As you duly noted, "Silence is (indeed) golden". We are in total agreement on that point and it needs no further discussion. Your concluding statement is absolutely right on target: "..as Master Nan, Huai-chin states - most people in the modern world develop "heroic over-exuberance" as the spiritual powers manifest - and so then use those spiritual powers and then "fall back into worldliness." That is why I have lost all interest in powers after realizing that virtually anything is possible. The great masters point out the pitfalls associated with the intense urge to acquire powers, and thus I personally have avoided interest in any acquisition of powers. As Ramana Maharshi has indicated, when one is firmly established in that sublime state, one can call upon whatever powers are needed to address the situation at hand in the best interests of all with no expectation of a return. That is how I see things now. Thank you very much for your very informative and illuminating post. I read it with great interest and will probably read it again ... and again. In addition, I will check out Eddie Ochins. Thank you again for sharing all this. I really appreciate it.

Awesome post ! What more can one add to it ! I particularly liked your concluding statement: "But you have to do it, cause it feels better." I completely agree. Once one gets even a glimpse of what you so eloquently described, one surrenders to it completely "cause it feels better" than anything else and, in that state, one is guided unerringly in the best interests of all with no expectation of a return and one gravitates quite naturally to abiding as continuously as possible in that state. Awesome post !

The secret is here - Ramana Maharshi: So what he states is actually corroborated by science. I'll leave my personal experiences out of this - as well as what teachers have shared with me, etc. But in fact the "paradox" that Ramana is discussing is found in science - in advanced high level physics - and therefore this "paradox" is something that the "ignorant folk" need as a "concession to argument." So Ramana Maharshi uses his mind - the spiritual ego as light - to "kill" his mind - by "turning the light around" (as it is called in Daoism). So in physics (or quantum biology if you want) - light is a paradox since it has no rest mass but light does have relativistic mass (that term is not normally used anymore). So now it is called "super momentum" or "superluminal momentum." So if you were to trap light in a box you could not tell if the light was matter or not. Light transforms into matter - but the MASS stays the same - the mass meaning spacetime itself as the ether. So in quantum physics this creates the paradox called the "measurement problem" because science relies on the speed of light as the limit to make measurements - and a measurement in time requires the loss of the ether of light. The ether of light or the spacetime of light is faster than the speed of light. This problem or "measurement problem" of science is actually inherent to Western philosophy, since it goes all the way back to Plato and how a "unit" is defined by based on infinity as an external geometric measurement that is symmetric in time. So this paradox is actually solved by the three gunas - which is OLDER than the Brahmin Vedic philosophy. So the quote I give above refers to the three gunas - and it's actually from music theory as complementary opposites. So the three gunas are actually the same as Daoism. This is something that most "advaitins" do not acknowledge. In fact I have not seen ANY advaitins acknowledge this - not even David Loy who thinks he knows about Daoism. haha. So then we think of light as frequency based on color - but by turning the light around - we go to "zero/infinite" time as the "rest mass" of light - and so this reverses the holographic spirit information. As qigong master Yan Xin states - the qi is "bidirectional" based on intention - the Yi as intention is actually from the Shen as light. So then red light is the yin qi energy - as the Tamas blockages - and blue light is the yang qi energy as the Sattva blockages - the golden light is from the blue light neutralizing the red light - so as the blue light is absorbed this is from the Future as an Ether spacetime shift. This is explained in relativistic quantum physics. So you then increase the golden light by increasing the yellow. So the "yuan Shen" is called the "light of no light" because it is this eternal process of "turning the light around" - and so what Ramana Maharshi did was rely on left-brain logical inference (Vichara). But he said that at first you repeat the I-I-I-I not as a mantra but as logical enquiry and the I-thought gets concentrated. THEN you visualize light on the right side of the heart as the "direct path." Now since Jnana Yoga is the highest level - he doesn't focus on the preliminary requirements of celibacy and fasting - and not even eye contact with females (as I have read the Brahmin priest rules). A three day ritual purification is required if a male brahmin priest makes eye contact with a female. So all of this is glossed over in the Western Advaita scene. But if you read Vivekananda's books on yoga - he is quite clear that Jnana is the highest level of yoga. Even in Buddhist Vipassana, if you really study it - they also teach to visualize light and that it is the highest level of meditation. So what happens then is that the Yuan Qi as the Ether has to "surround" the light - to empower the light - and this Ether is a spacetime vortex. Western science has proven that spacetime is curved even at only 1 centimeter in distance (the size of the pineal gland). So the experience of the Yuan Qi is that is it not HIGHER nor is it LOWER but rather it is at "zero/infinity" geometry and yet it is the 5th dimension as TIME that can not be seen! So it is an "ether-knowledge" based on time (not on space). Just as Kala means Time and so Kali means to turn time around as this spacetime vortex that both creates and destroys matter. So then in Nirvikalpa Samadhi - the mind as spirit turns back on itself as pure "reflection" - and this reflection is "held" so that the external object being reflected is then "merged" with - and so this Sattvic mind state means there is no movement but while this "reflection" is being held - there is still movement or "doing" of the Ether itself - the Ether-Knowledge can then only be logically inferred after the fact. So if you read Poonjaji's memoir, "Nothing Ever Happened" - he doesn't know what happened - when six of him (as light-matter) all attended six different birthday invitations. So from the perspective of the Yuan Shen - as "clear light" - as Ramana Maharshi states - the light gets SO BRIGHT that there loss of the ego (just as in deep sleep there loss of the ego) But there is KNOWLEDGE that remains - only it is NOT your ego knowledge. It is the Ether-Knowledge itself as formless awareness or Shakti or Yuan Qi - and this Knowledge actually operates FROM THE FUTURE - and so it can solve whatever problem was "perceived" to be happening (in the past). And so this is happening eternally - and we can LISTEN to it or logically infer the source of light. But we can not see the source of the light. That's why Ramana Maharshi calls it Mouna Samadhi. But the West fixates on visual perception and hence the misunderstanding and the need for "concession for the sake of argument" as Ramana Maharshi explains. Although you didn't really address the specific points I raised, your post is nonetheless very educated, informed and intellectual. Your knowledge of quantum physics is quite commendable. (If you haven't already read it already, you might want to read "Quantum Questions, Mystical Writings of the World's Great Physicists" edited by Ken Wilber. It contains the "mystical writings" of Nobel-Prize winning quantum physicists such as Heisenberg, Schroedinger, Einstein, De Broglie, Jeans, Plank, Pauli, and Eddington. In addition, the latest edition of "Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra is also quite good in exploring the parallels between modern physics and eastern mysticism. I have found both books to be very illuminating relative to quantum physics and eastern mysticism.) Now, let's move on to Ramana Maharshi. In the Ramana Maharshi quote that you provided, you highlighted (among other passages) " This has to be conceded in argument with ignorant folk" and "The satvic mind has to be admitted as a concession to argument." Have you considered the possibility that the Ramana passage that you quoted was similarly a concession to the intellectual folk? An aware observer will note, as I have said repeatedly, that Ramana often (not always) responds to questions in "Talks" at the level of the questioner. The passages that you highlighted, as I just re-quoted, clearly indicate this. Instead of getting bogged down in the intellectual theories contained in the "Talks" which are concessions in one manner or another, let us proceed deeper to an abridged version of the "Ribhu Gita" which Bhagavan refers to often in His "Talks". In the abridged version of this classic, the translator includes in his selection passages made familiar by Sri Bhagavan. This was published by Sri Ramanasranam (ISBN 978-81-88018-81-3) with the Sixth Edition being published in 2010. According to the foreword, the translator was encouraged by Ramana himself to study the Ribhu Gita as his sadhana. The translator, Professor N.R. Krishanmoorthi Aiyer was the Head of the Department of Physics in the American college in Madurai and hence was steeped in the objectivity of modern science. At the end of your post, you mention "Mouna Samadhi" as it is called by Ramana Maharshi, but it wasn't really clear to me though I obviously know the meaning of both words. In the Rabhu Gita, it clearly states that "One should not give room to any thought and should ever abide in Maha Mounam (peace of total stillness)" [Chapter 14, verse 38] Lest you question whether this is taken out of context, this theme is continuously repeated throughout this publication. - "The state of firm abidance in that thought-free alert awareness-Self, constitutes integral perfection, yoga, wisdom, Moksha, Sahaji Samadhi, the state of Siva and the state of Atman-Self, which scriptures proclaim by the title of Brahman." [Chapter 5, verse 26] - "The Vdeka Mukta is free from the least trace of thought; he abides all alone in his effulgent pure-Awareness-Self in intense unbroken bliss, totally oblivious of limited forms, in a state of Maha-Mounam (stillness of body, speech, and mind)." [Chapter 9 Verse 1} - "Abidance in the state of thought free alert Awareness is the state of mukti beyond thought and expression. The emergence of thought is the bondage of untold suffering. Abidance in the Self is the true non-dual samadhi , and that alone leads one to the eternal bliss of mukti. [Chapter 21 Verse 41]. Those quotes should suffice for now, but I could easily have provided more. I don't want to turn this into intellectual theorizing based on Ramana's concessions to the intellectual folk. Although I can only speak for myself, my direction is clearly geared towards proceeding to the thought-free Alert-awareness of which this speaks. This is consistent across traditions. In Judaism, Ramana quotes Psalm 41:10 ("Be still and know ... THAT ... I AM ... God"). That passage is also one of my own personal favorites and guidelines. The first Buddhist jhana involves thought-conception and discursive-thought but subsequent jhanas are thought free. One of my favorite quotes from a Taoist/Buddhist handbook is "In utter emptiness and complete silence, simply watch the return". Lord Jesus said "Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see/realize God" (Beatitudes). My sense is that, at the deepest levels, all the traditions ultimately point to the stillness of "Mouna Samadhi", the expression with which you ended your post and with which I fully concur. Each of us comes to our conclusions in our own way as we are all unique. The subject of this thread related to conscious sleep and that is one of the meditation vehicles I use to observe the emergence of thoughts at both the conscious level and at the subconscious level so that, one by one, they can be eliminated in full accordance with yet another tradition that I did not mention above --- the Tibetan Book of the Dead. I am more into undoing and uncluttering as opposed to filling my head with theories that are essentially concessions to the intellectual folk who thrive on words and theories. I weary of theory. Your quote and your post was interesting but I had difficulty translating it into action. Turning the light inward is easy to say, but I'm still in the dark regarding exactly WHAT is your practice, WHAT experiences you have had, WHAT were the results of your practice, and WHAT action your entire post suggests. Please help me to understand better. P.S. I loved reading your post as it is indeed very educated, informed, well-written and intellectual but there is a point at which one must go past the intellectual. I was an intellectual in the past and it took a very tough spiritual mentor to shake me loose of all that. Now, I am at a stage of de-cluttering, not accumulating more clutter.

Thank you for your comments. What I quoted was not a commentary. It was simply one translation. I have other translations of the Mandukya Upanishad, but I agree with your suggestion that we should have no further discussion on this particular point. Let us simply agree to disagree. That is fine.

Excerpt from the Mandukya Upanishad, as per Eknath Easwaran: "The third state is called Prajna, of deep sleep, In which one neither dreams nor desires. There is no mind in Prajna, there is no Separateness; but the sleeper is not Conscious of this. LET HIM BECOME CONSCIOUS IN PRAJNA AND IT WILL OPEN THE DOOR TO THE STATE OF ABIDING JOY." "Of Turiya, without parts, beyond birth And death, symbol of everlasting joy. Those who know AUM as the Self become the Self; Truly they become the Self." Draw your own conclusions. I have nothing to add at this point. The words of the Mandukya Upanishad seem to speak for themselves. It clearly says, "LET HIM BECOME CONSCIOUS IN PRAJNA (deep sleep)". In any case, I am not going to be drawn into a discussion on any differences you may raise between this translation and others. I will say, however, that if a person cannot even know himself in the three obvious states of man --- deep sleep, dream state, so-called waking state --- and turiya, then it seems pointless to carry on a discussion with them regarding their theories or theories that they have studied about the overall nature of the Reality. They should first know themselves before going any further. In my opinion, the value of "conscious sleep" has been sufficiently stated by posters here as well as masters of other traditions. Now, do what seems best for you. I can't think of anything more I can add to this particular dialogue.

I love what you just wrote, particularly: "...feeling good is of your natural nature. And going with the flow of your naturally good feeling nature doesn't require you to do something, but rather let go of what prevents you from being your full true self. Naturally. That which you enjoy, by your very nature. " I've learned to surrender to that which lies beyond thoughts, and allow my pure intuition to unerringly guide my steps one step at a time. I think less and less in terms of likes and dislikes but rather in terms of "This is where I am now and how do I proceed from here in this moment." As you duly stated, one can indeed go with the flow and enjoy it without being kept in the local mind as another poster postulated. Thanks for posting. The posts here keep getting better and better as I see that the quiet ones are coming forth more and more with pragmatic wisdom and not just scriptural quotes.