Still_Waters

One cannot rule that out. The first of my truly awesome teachers was an outwardly uneducated "homeless black man" on the streets of New York City whom I knew for 9 years many many years ago. For the first two years, however, before he revealed himself, we had numerous "coincidental" meetings on the streets of NYC during which I would always take him out to lunch or dinner depending on the time of day. There was nothing particularly impressive about his words in general as he usually just listened to me talk about myself. Nonetheless, whenever we parted, there was invariably a seemingly bizarre statement or question he had raised that lingered with me and became a catalyst for meditation. After two years, he finally revealed himself in an extraordinary manner and I was stunned by his wisdom and understanding of the Reality. I immediately questioned him: "We've known each other for two years. Why haven't you ever spoken to me like this before." His response to me, who FOOLISHLY considered myself somewhat enlightened at that time based on my intellectual understanding of scriptures, was: "You weren't even at a level where we could discuss basics". However, his overall demeanor was sensitive and appropriate so I wasn't in the least bit offended. For the next seven years, we continued to meet "coincidentally" on the streets of NYC whenever I needed him most (whether I liked it at the time or not as I was sometimes engaged in less than noble activities when he appeared ). With one exception, he refused my offer to stay at my house or accept my phone number so that he could call collect whenever he wanted to meet so our meetings were unscheduled for obvious reasons but uncannily timely. Our parting was unforgettable. At our last meeting, he abruptly told me that I would not be seeing him again. Having grown very attached to this unusual relationship, I was understandably upset and asked if I had offended him in any way. He simply indicated that "My work with you is done" and that "Another teacher will come to take my place". He hugged me and started to walk away. I could not bear losing him so I followed him and was only a couple of steps behind him as he turned the corner. I turned the corner only a few seconds after he did, and no one was there. I never saw him again, but I will never forget those incredible 9 years with him. As for your statement, "At this point I think Spotless is just pretending to sleep in order to fit in with us mortal humans", you may be right. One never knows. However, be assured that I will be watching more and more of his posts in the future. LOL

That was very well said. Thank you once again for sharing.

Thank you for your post. There is indeed a surprisingly larger number than I initially expected who are out there and "have achieved this awakened state" as you have stated in your post. To me at least, it is unimportant what one calls it (Turiya or otherwise) as one can easily get bogged down in terminology and definitions. You stated it well when you said that "it is rare to those un-awake but not so rare in those Awake". That parallels my sentiments exactly though I did not think so in my early development days. As one matures spiritually, one comes in contact with more and more of these "not so rare" beings but it has been my experience that they are often very, very quiet. As Nisargadatta Maharaj once said, those well along the path to self-realization are generally very quiet as I too have observed. I have found that to be the case as well. On the other hand, the un-awake intellectuals seem to do the most talking and are constantly engaged in intellectual dialogues and spewing forth quotes which, as I have stated before, cannot adequately express the inexpressible. Nonetheless, the oral/written teachings serve a very important purpose initially as long as one is aware that "You yourself must strive. Buddhas are but sign posts ..." (Dhammapada, 276). The Buddhas and the oral/written teachings are but sign posts pointing out the way but PRACTICE is the key. Over 30 years ago, when I first met my primary spiritual mentor, she gave me a book on meditation. At that time, I was an intellectual novice and read the whole book in one week. (In retrospect, my intellectual reading processing now appears extremely ridiculous to me but that is exactly what I did at that time.) I went back to the ashram the following week and told her that I had "questions". After a long, very uncomfortable silence, she stared at me and asked, "You read the whole book in one week?" Sensing a quiz or an admonition coming, I shrank back and sheepishly responded, "Sort of". The follow-up question unnerved me completely: "...and you PRACTICED?") Even more sheepishly, I responded, "Sort of". At that point, she sternly instructed me: "PRACTICE. Only then can you ask questions. Now you may leave." My bruised little ego was deeply offended and I resolved never to go back to her. However, as I'm sure most of you long-time practitioners realize, she was absolutely correct though most teachers might have handled it a little more gently. (That is why, in a chapter dedicated to her in Linda Johnson's Book "Living Women Saints of India", she is referred to as the "No Nonsense Yogini".) Needless to say, I eventually became her disciple for over 30 years and actually wrote the introduction to a revised edition of that initial meditation book. In that introduction, I warned readers NOT to do as I had done initially and stressed the importance of PRACTICE. It is wonderful to find people here who have practiced and who contribute substantively to this discussion.

I learn from all. Ramana Maharshi has filled in some vital points in my meditation practices. He is not my only source. His "Talks" are obviously very disjointed since random people come to his ashram at random times and ask questions to which he responds in the moment based on their level of understanding. What he says to one person may not apply to another and he directly states that on many occasions. It was difficult reading him at times because his answers to the same questions from different people at different levels can be significantly different. Therefore, there is not a preferred prescribed practice from Ramana other than self-enquiry which he highly recommends. Even with self-enquiry, he states that there are relatively few who can practice that well. For those who cannot do self-enquiry for whatever reason, he recommends bhakti. For still others, he recommends karma yoga (losing one's self in service to others). For those who cannot do any of the above, he recommends pranayama since it is a "natural sedative" and will calm them down. The Tibetan Book of the Dead and the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying aptly describe the similarities between going to sleep and dying. I personally met with the author of the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying as we discussed my near-death-experience compared to what he had just taught at St. Peter's Church in New York City. In addition, the Sufi mystic Hazrat Inayat Khan spoke extensively about "dying before death" which employs the same principle albeit with different terminology. I studied directly under his son, Pir Vilayat Khan, for about two years and these subjects came up. Kabbalistic Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan of my borough, Brooklyn, spoke and wrote extensively about the talmudic consensus regarding what happens at physical death and how to prepare for crossing over. My practice and knowledge is a composite from various traditions that did not contradict each other regarding basics and are consistent with my own near-death-experience and my conscious sleep practice. In addition, my own spiritual mentor was a guide in this respect. I am not going to peruse Ramana's writings to identify where he spoke or hinted about conscious sleep. You will have to do that yourself if it's important to you. I would recommend that you follow your ideal practice to the end and do what is best suited to you personally as all of us are unique and what works for one may not work best for another. Ramana Maharshi has stated that explicitly as I mentioned above when he recommended self-enquiry for some, bhakti for others, karma yoga for still others, and a "natural sedative" (pranayama) for still others. Now, do as you wish. P.S. Ramana's words about the Light projecting the brain and the impressions in the brain manifesting as the body and the world triggered me to apply that to the dream-process and use that as a catalyst to understanding how to trace the Light back to the Source as best as possible. That was all that I said about Ramana in this respect and it was a vital point related to something on which I was meditating at the time. My teacher once told me, "You're an experienced meditator. Meditate and all will be revealed." Verily, what has been important to me has become a subject for meditation and revelations just happened in one way or another with Ramana's talks filling in various pieces of the puzzle for the subject under consideration. However, I repeat that Ramana is not my only source but what he has said does not contradict anything that I have discovered and incorporated into my understanding of the Reality. That is why he remains one of my favorites. P.S.S. I am sure that you have discovered that words are ultimately inadequate and cannot express the inexpressible. With a user-name like Siva, I am sure that you are aware of Dakshinamurti who taught in utter and complete silence. Quotes from the Upanishads can only go so far. Some of my most illuminating "dialogues" have been in complete and utter silence with masters who have virtually no following at all since there are very few who are receptive to that kind of communication. Most need words and "quotes".

Fortunately, I was a corporate VP and Department Manager in trading systems at Merrill Lynch as well as a consultant to airlines and casinos so I had the wherewithal to travel wherever I wanted on my spiritual quests though I did not always have a lot of time to be away when I did travel. Nonetheless, when I went to the Haridwar Kumbha Mela in 1998, I was away for 3+ weeks (long for me) and it was literally life-transforming and well-worth the time spent there. You are correct that most people think that "we seem to go from awake to asleep instantaneously" and also from deep sleep to awake instantaneously. However, as one practices conscious sleep more and more, the whole process slows down considerably and it's not as instantaneous as one had initially thought. It's similar to the thought-observation meditation technique where one's psyche is flooded with thoughts from all over the place initially but, as one observes more intently over the course of time, the thoughts slow down and then there is a space between the thoughts and then, eventually, one simply abides in the alert silence (NOT a dopey blissed out trance state) between the thoughts. I have used mantra meditation for years so, when I go to sleep, the mantra starts spontaneously and eventually fades into nothingness at which point one simply rests in the deep sleep state until that which triggers dreams arises. When I am walking down the street with nothing particular on my agenda, the mantra similarly starts spontaneously as I wander thought-free BUT ALERT until something that triggers a return to the active waking state (such as an ambulance requiring action) happens. Eventually, however, once one understands the process and has learned from it, one doesn't do it as assiduously as one had done in the past. One moves on to other practices or simply abides in the thought-free alert stillness more and more continuously without wanting to disturb it by mundane unnecessary thoughts. However, when necessary to function, one can activate the mind and the thought processes at will (or almost at will). (I still have a long way to go in certain areas. LOL) P.S. I absolutely LOVE your posts as your language is so clear and precise. I am learning from you, and I really appreciate both the CONTENT and the FORM of your posts.

First of all, I agree with you completely that the display of powers/"miracles" is most assuredly NOT a sign of enlightenment. As a matter of fact, it is well said in the east that miracles are rarely performed without at least some trace of ego. In the past, I must admit that I was very impressed with displays of powers and/or miracles. However, as one matures spiritually, one realizes that such displays are actually a "red flag" (at least to me) and that it's important to investigate even more thoroughly with such individuals to determine if there is indeed anything of an enlightenment nature than can be gleaned from them. What these phenomenon do prove, however, is that virtually anything is possible once one understands the subtle forces underlying the Universe. That is all. Once one gets that message, powers/miracles become surprisingly uninteresting. Moreover, the fascination with acquisition of powers can actually hold one back with attachments to subtler levels of reality and the ego issues that arise with those attachments to powers. Our interpretations of the Mandukya Upanishad clearly differ. It is said that Shankaracharya declared that if one could only study a single Upanishad it should be this one; similarly in a late Upanishad, the Muktika ("Deliverance"), Rama appears and tells a devotee that "the Mandukya alone is sufficient for the deliverance of the aspirant". Take it for what it's worth and proceed as you see fit.

I did due diligence by checking out your Ramana quote from Talk 177 and confirmed that you did indeed report it accurately. However, as for me saying that "the awareness IS the Light", I never said that. As a matter of fact, I specifically started my post by saying that I did not want to get bogged down regarding the exact meaning of the terms "awareness" and "consciousness" and "the Light but wanted to focus on the actual process of projection and the manifestation of the body (obviously including the ego) and the world. You are obviously intelligent and well-informed so I would like to pursue this even deeper in dialogue with you. The Ramana quote says that "the light is projected FROM Absolute Consciousness." Ultimately, the "light" is indeed obviously projected from a higher level whether we call it the Absolute, the Source, or anything else. In that quote, Ramana called it the Absolute and that is quite workable. However, what exactly is the Absolute? How many levels are there between us and the Absolute? Having directly interacted with sages who clearly demonstrate verifiable "remote viewing", they point out that from one level higher one can see from afar the events of this Universe. They add, however, that there is more than one level to be navigated to get back to the Source. My own teacher, who would slip about things that she verifiably saw from afar, stated that she could go back one level and get glimpses of the next level back. If you are familiar with the Yoga Vashistha, there are stories about worlds within worlds and time within time very similar to what we experience with the creation of the dream world within ourselves. The great Sufi Mystic, Hazrat Inayat Khan, talks about the levels back to the Source and it is well-documented in the book, "The Message of Our Time", which was written by his son Pir Vilayat Khan under whom I studied for over two years and discussed matters such as we are discussing now. I personally have had glimpses of merging with the Light from the next level to pick up verifiable "remotely viewable" happenings but cannot do it consciously and most certainly cannot sustain it for more than fleeting episodes. I could go on further but I feel that the above demonstrate the point that I am trying to make. In his Talks, Ramana states that "the light is projected FROM Absolute Consciousness". I don't disagree with that at all, but my sense is that Ramana did not want to overly complicate things by defining the Absolute/Source or going into the various vertical levels or horozontal parallels. (Regarding the horozontal, read the story of Lila and the King in the Yoga Vashistha which even Ramana Maharshi quotes.) I have also discussed Ramana's teachings on the "Absolute" and the Light with senior residents at the Arunachala Ashram in Queens, New York, so I have done my due diligence on this subject. I offered the dream analogy as the means by which I validated Ramana's statement on the microcosm-microcosm dream level. In conscious sleep, one can clearly verify Ramana's statement at the microcosm level and that gives one a better understanding of what happens at the higher level(s). If one is incapable of discussing the process at the dream level, which is totally within the scope of one's direct observations, how can one presume to speculate about what takes place at the higher level(s) and ultimately at the Absolute/Source level? Any discussion by us on the Light and the Absolute would be an example of the blind leading the blind. I am NOT at a level where I can validate anything projected from the Absolute/Source level. If you are, which I suspect not, then enlighten us all. When one's mind is thought-free, one becomes aware of the subtle vibrations at the crown which one can trace to the next level and merge with it eventually. (I've had glimpses but, as I've said, it's still a haphazard unrepeatable process for me that just happens spontaneously with me having no control over it like the sages whom I've encountered have.) What I can do , however, is observe the process of dream formation so that I can understand it better and thus how to understand how to proceed to different levels of the macrocosm. This is a fascinating discussion and I would love to hear your thoughts on this. However, let's not speculate on what the Absolute/Source is at this point since I am certainly not at that level and suspect that neither are you. Through glimpses, readings, and discussions with sages, I have an idea of the process though I cannot do it consciously. As far as the Absolute/Source is concerned, I love reading what Ramana says about it and the light projected from it, but I can't do anything about that at this point but theorize based on Ramana's words which I strongly suspect are a watered-down version of what really is so that he can communicate with us limited ones who would probably be overwhelmed if Ramana revealed it all exactly as it really is. As I said before, you're obviously intelligent and educated, so I would appreciate hearing more from you on this subject. P.S. There is an interesting though somewhat confusing movie called "Inception" which tries to depict worlds within worlds and various levels of consciousness. It's an interesting attempt to portray levels of consciousness though I would not see it again and wouldn't particularly recommend it. I think that the screenwriter has a sense of what is happening but, as with words, it's very difficult to communicate that aspect of the Reality.

Dwai wrote, " It is awareness. The Light in which objects are known " and you responded as above with a reference to Ramana Maharshi. Without getting bogged down regarding the exact meaning of the terms "awareness" and "consciousness" and "the Light", Ramana Maharshi (of whom I am a great admirer) did say the following as reported in his "Talks" (Talk 177): "...the body and all other objects are all contained in the brain. The Light is projected on the brain. The impressions in the brain become manifest as the body and the world. Because the ego identifies itself with limitations, the body is considered separate and the world separate". When one practices "conscious sleep" and watches dream formation intently from start to finish, one can see the Truth in Ramana's words as the dream world manifests and the dream-objects see virtually see the same dream world though obviously colored somewhat by the egos of the dream-objects. This is an interesting process to observe in meditative slow motion with far-ranging implications. ("As above, so below"; "Man is made in the image of God"; etc.). I would not be so quick to discount Dwai's position over terminology. It might be more beneficial to focus on the process whereby objects are known rather than getting bogged down in terminology. That is probably why the greatest masters whom I have met have communicated in silence as there are obvious difficulties that present themselves with the use of language. (Before you ask, I will add that I have indeed met masters who have communicated in silence for hours both at a Taoist monastery in Chengdu, China, as well as at the Haridwar Kumbha Mela in India, in addition to other instances of shorter duration. The problem of language and terminology is effectively eliminated for those who are receptive to such communication.)

It is good to see you here on this thread supporting the sharing of direct experiences on this subject and on other subjects as well. With people like you and others here, the quality of the discussions relevant to direct experiences keeps getting better and better.

I'm actually working my way backwards through this thread after reading posts identified on the latest activity log from this site. It's good to see confirming posts on conscious sleep NOT being a myth, as you have indicated subsequently, but a very practical practice not only advocated in the Mandukya Upanishad but also in the Tibetan Buddhist bardo literature. The Sufis call it "dying before death". This practice is common to many traditions and , having practiced it for years, I too do not consider it a "myth" at all as you have duly stated.

After reading your latest post, as accessed via this site's activity log, I was so impressed that I am working backwards in this thread to read your other posts. It is very rare for me to be in complete agreement with something that another has said or written, but what you have written here is something that I could have written myself albeit not as eloquently as you have just done. Even your terminology is very agreeable to me. Thanks for sharing.

I agree with you completely and I love the eloquent, precise manner in which you have described the process. I have practiced "conscious sleep" ("chetan nidra" or "sleep yoga" as you call it) for many years and have actually discussed the process at length with Buddhist monks in the highlands near Luang Prabang (Laos), Sufi Shaiks, Tibetan Buddhists in Lhasa many years ago, and other practitioners. Everything you wrote is very consistent with my own understanding and practice. At the Haridwar Khumba Mela in 1998, I personally met for the first time a yogi who reportedly had not slept in the traditional manner (supine) for years and, through an interpreter, asked him how he did it. He stared at me for a while and then responded directly to me in two words, "chetan nidra", which of course means "conscious sleep". The interpreter looked at me and said that he wasn't sure how to explain that response to me but I assured him that I understood and didn't need a further explanation. My colleagues and I checked out this yogi for the 3+ weeks that we were in Haridwar. We saw him during the daytime at the bandaras (feasts) and also at night at his tent beside the Ganges. At no time during that period did we ever see him lying in the supine position or unconscious. When I did a brief stint in Adult Protective Services, our organization worked closely with VPS (Visiting Psychiatric Services). One of the psychiatrists, who knew about my travels and interests, jokingly asked me if I had ever met any of the well-documented cases where yogis go without traditional supine sleep for years. I responded that I had met such a yogi personally and, when I described the process, he said that my explanation was the only explanation that he had heard which made sense from a medical perspective. Using your terminology, I find "dream sleep" to be very helpful in identifying latent urges (subconscious as well as the obvious conscious ones) that trigger dreams. Like yourself, I feel that cultivating awareness in deep sleep does indeed seem to be the closest we come to the experience of the Clear Light Dharmata Bardo in life as we are temporarily "free" of the body and workings of the mind. I also find it illuminating to observe the transitions between the three states --- particularly the transition from the deep sleep state to the so-called waking state. I hope that you post more on this subject as your observations and preciseness of language are very much appreciated. You have stated it better than I could. Thank you.

Feel free to make as many suggestions as you like. However, methinks the man dost protest too much.

I like that. Synchronicity. I wouldn't worry too much about blowback from the blowhards. There are people here who will appreciate your direct experience posts. William James, in his book on the "Varieties of Religious Experience", noted that there are so many similar "subjective" experiences that one can no longer deny their authenticity. Carl Jung developed his collective unconscious theory based on similarities cross-culture of "subjective" experiences. The people giving blowback don't seem to understand this.

Don't jump to conclusions without knowing the details. Having been raised in the Roman Catholic tradition with an "infallible" Pope whom I don't consider to be even remotely infallible, I approach such matters quite scientifically and use verifiable examples in which others were also either involved or present as witnesses. Don't jump to conclusions without knowing the details. Having said that, I won't be sharing any details with you since, by your own words, "a person revealing their personal practices in detail on the internet is at best dubious and at worst very foolish". With that, I agree. One does not cast pearls before swine, as the Biblical injunction clearly states. Such details are best conveyed in private to those who can understand and appreciate

I apologize for the delay in responding but I have not been on this site for several days for reasons related to my last post. Nothing more need be said about that. I am absolutely DELIGHTED to read what you have written, and I actually copied it to e-mail to myself so that I could store it in my "spiritual" folder for future reference since I am pressed for time right now and cannot respond completely as I would like to do. I also plan to check out the website that you recommended as well as the book which, incidentally, is available through amazon.com. (Ironically, I was at a meeting last week which was preceded by a gigong session that I had not attended but I met the teacher on his way out and he gave me his card. Perhaps, this is not a "coincidence". ) I can relate to virtually everything that you wrote in your post as this is EXACTLY the type of direct experiences I had hoped to see on this site. Having personally been in contact with masters from various traditions who VERIFIABLY materialize in open fields, see from afar (remote viewing), teach in complete silence, demonstrate telepathy, don't eat (for years), don't sleep (for years), read minds, heal, raise the dead (second hand info in that case from a Tibetan monk), and so on, I have come to the realization that virtually anything is possible once one "understands" (knowing without thinking) the subtler nature of the Reality. As you probably know, public miracles are frowned upon for the most part in the east. However, when considered important for the unfolding of a sincere seeker, it does happen often without explanation. ("Meditate and all things will be revealed" is the standard answer. ) The energy flow you mentioned sounds very similar to the "shaktipat" in the yoga tradition. It is common in other traditions as well. It was interesting to hear about your healing experiences. However, even in the case of psychotic multiple-personal-disorders (now known as a dissociative disorder), one personality can have a serious dis-ease such as diabetes while the other personality does not. While it appears to be an instantaneous "cure" (the dis-ease does come back when the "dis-eased" personality reappears), it is clear that dis-ease is far more than a physical condition. There are indeed yogis (check out Tapaviji Maharaj) who have restored their entire bodies through the kaya-kalpa meditative process. The body-mind connection is a great subject for meditation. I wish that I could write more at this time but this will have to suffice for now since, as I mentioned previously, I am pressed for time. However, with posts like this, I am encouraged to return to this site and separate the wheat from the chaff. Thanks again for your excellent experiential post. I plan to check out some of the information (books, website, etc.) that you have brought to my attention. One learns from all.

Many years ago, when I was in my early 20s, I had a near-death-experience (NDE) during which I emerged completely symptom-free from a 3-day "irreversible coma" when the doctors had said beforehand that this was impossible since there was clearly brain damage and organ damage. During that experience, I could see my body from afar, the entire hospital room, and verifiable things that were outside the range of physical sight (remote viewing). I had glimpses of the universal panorama as well as a mystical vision (which I completely misinterpreted but turned out to be eerily prophetic) that shifted my focus to eastern practices. Having been raised Roman Catholic, I could not explain these and other experiences during this period in the light of the limited Christian theology to which I had been exposed. I followed many of the Taoist and Buddhist practices noted in this thread and actually met Taoist and Buddhist masters in remote regions throughout the world. I also engaged in yoga and related meditation practices. When meeting such masters, I invariably asked how certain unexplainable (by me) happenings directly perceived by me were possible and how certain teachings could be validated for one's self since I was not content with merely repeating the words of others. That began a period of intense purification and validating practices. Eventually, I met a teacher under whom I was to study for many years. Her most appealing words were: "Question everything, including what I say, and, if a teacher can't point you to the direct experiences, then go elsewhere." From that point on, I learned how to validate whatever resonated with me from the eastern teachings and practices to which I had become attracted. It became clear that intellectual understanding and parroting words of alleged masters are not the same as understanding/realization. Here, on this forum, I read many grandiose statements and am in agreement with many of them. However, whenever I ask questions regarding how such statements can be validated or how posters came to those conclusions, there is only silence as the intellectual posturing continues. This leads me to believe that there is a lot of intellectualizing in this form with people parading around as if they are enlightened guides to others. (It should be noted that this is most assuredly helpful to others nonetheless.) However, I am wondering whether all these words are exactly that --- just words --- with nothing in the way of direct validating experiences to back them up. Correct me if I am wrong, but I would like to hear more about HOW posters here came to realize the statements that they make and to read LESS casual quoting of others with no perceived attempt to validate/verify. Without disputing that "Mind creates Reality" or cryptic references to " that which gives birth to the One" and other statements presented here, I would like to hear more about what convinced people of what they write so casually and HOW they went about validating such statements. Otherwise, it is still interesting talk --- but nonetheless just talk by people who seem satisfied with their intellectual astuteness. If that satisfies, then so be it.

I was recently introduced to Edward Selim Michael by a very spiritually-insightful Jewish woman who has hosted Quaker and Buddhist groups for as long as I have known her. I recently finished reading Michael's book, "The Law of Attention: Nada Yoga and the Way of Inner Vigilance". He clearly states that the aim of the book is "direct inner experience" and that is what attracted me to him. My own spiritual mentor of over 30 years once said, "Question everything, even what I say... and, if a teacher can't point you to the direct experiences, then go elsewhere". Edward Selim Michael seems to be such a being who points one to the direct inner experiences. I just ordered another one of Michael's books, "Obstacles to Enlightenment and Liberation", because he warns against getting into comfortable, familiar ruts and I plan to use his book as a checklist to see what tendencies I may have that could be holding me back. Michael seems to be a man who has been there and not just some one pontificating grand theories and quoting the masters but one who speaks from direct inner experiences. I wasn't sure where to post this topic but decided to post it here because, despite his yoga/meditation inclinations, " It was to Buddhism that he felt closest, but as his teaching was based on his direct experience, he did not hesitate to quote Christian, Hindu, or Sufi mystics." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Salim_Michael To get the discussion going, I will include without comment a few quotes from his book, "The Law of Attention: Nada Yoga and the Way of Inner Vigilance". (Note that I have replaced the masculine word "he" in the quotes by "one".) 1. "The aim of this book is to help seekers arrive at recognizing, through direct inner experience, their higher nature and the after-death state, the state from which they originated and to which they will return on leaving this form of existence." 2. "Without perhaps realizing it, one will then start to sleep inwardly again, thinking that one is still working by being merely satisfied with the intellectual knowledge and memory of certain limited spiritual experiences one may have had in the past." 3. "If, during meditation, this luminous expanse of consciousness becomes adulterated and diluted in the slightest degree with one's habitual state, it will then inevitably cease to be Truth." 4. "It will be readily evident to one who has practiced meditation seriously and has had enlightenment that what was right and necessary at the beginning of one's quest will no longer be right or practical later".

And how do you validate what you have just written ?

How did you validate the statements that you have just posted ?

Nicely put. I see the two traditions as being very compatible at the deepest levels. Although I have met many Buddhist monks and practitioners throughout the world, one of the most memorable experiences was a three-hour meeting with a Taoist master in Chengdu (China) which was conducted in complete and utter silence. It was one of the most illuminating connections I have ever experienced.

I was commenting about the views on reincarnation from other perspectives as well. That topic --- reincarnation --- really deserves a thread of its own.

Ramana Maharshi indicated that reincarnation is what they teach to the masses. Hazrat Inayat Khan, the Sufi mystic, indicated that, if the one life is an "illusion", then past lives must also be an illusion. Reflecting on the theory of reincarnation is quite fascinating and absorbing.

Your assumptions are amusing, specifically: "If you've been working with a live teacher for 30 years, closely, and you're not cooked then I suggest it's not working - you, her, or the both of you." Shortly before my teacher left the earth plane, I asked her a question. She responded, "You're an experienced meditator. Meditate and all will be revealed." That is absolutely correct. Shortly thereafter, she left the physical plane. Her focus was on facilitating disciples becoming lights unto themselves, and she did that quite effectively. Once one unfolds to a certain degree, however, that does not mean that one should leave the presence of one's beloved teacher forever. One still delights in her presence and delights in the equivalent of the "dharma battles". Being with a teacher for 30 years most assuredly does not imply that "it's not working". Having traveled throughout the world, I have met some truly extraordinary beings who have progressed to their ends (to use your terminology). It is unfortunate that you have not met such beings but I am of the belief that everything happens in the proper moment. Regarding kundalini, we are in agreement that "at some point one needs to go beyond the individual body/mind". Even Ramana Maharshi explicitly stated that the chakras and the whole kundalini process are only mental formations ultimately. I once practiced chakra meditations, but have not done that for many years. It served its purpose. As for Selim, I have only been introduced to him recently but I personally like his "unfortunate outsider psychology to, let's face it, thousands of years of spiritual practice and realization" (to use your unfortunate words). In the book which I am reading now, he addresses the point that you raised. "There is no lack of books on Hinduism, meditation, Hatha Yoga, etc. containing all sorts of attractive but unverifiable speculations about the beyond, the astral world, the causal body, and so on. However, among those works, how many are there that emphasize the imperative necessity for the readers to know themselves?" The Buddha always maintained the "Noble Silence" when asked metaphysical questions that "thousands of years of spiritual practice and realization" have speculated on to delight their readers. Buddha took the right approach in my opinion and Selim seems to echo that sentiment. In addition, today's society (especially in the west) has become too intellectual in contrast to the state of the simplicity prevalent in the years when many of those scriptures were written. Therefore, it seems important to recognize that many scriptures were tailored to a particular culture and time period but some adjustments may be necessary to really shake modern cultures out of a complacent stagnancy and intellectualism that might have arisen. In any case, thank you for sharing your views. I will continue to read Selim and enjoy what he has to say. Obviously, you prefer something else but it is not clear what that is since I haven't seen anything positive or constructive in your post --- just criticisms and questionable assumptions.