Still_Waters

Interesting response. Can you elaborate more on " It is in fact the establishment of Awareness (as a newly awakened centre) that causes the cessation of thoughts, and not the cessation of thoughts that uncovers Awareness already existing." (I have other questions, but will hold off on them until I hear more elaboration on the HOW of what I have asked for further elaboration above.)

Those are all good questions and serve well as a catalyst for discussion. Based on my direct experiences and/or readings and/or meetings with extraordinary beings, here are my takes on each of your questions. Feel free to comment, question, or provide information refuting my current positions on these subjects. 1. Having practiced meditation for years under various spiritual mentors and also having studied clinical psychology in a postgraduate program at NYU, one becomes painfully aware that there are some people who are out of touch in varying degrees to both thoughts and feelings. For such people, no explanation regarding the pure-thought-free awareness is possible. For the others, no explanation should be necessary. Since the thought-free state is virtually impossible to describe in words because words (in most cases) proceed from thoughts and feelings, I am not quite sure how to express the inexpressible in words. Edward Salim Michael, however, aptly notes that, when "one redirects his gaze inwardly to dwell in the silence of his true abode, he will at that moment begin to experience a state of pure uninvolved impersonal awareness". It is alert but uninvolved. That should suffice for now. 2. Thought-free awareness initially can be lost very easily. When one has mastered the four-step thought-observation meditations (observation, extinguishing thoughts, creating a thought and watching mental associations, and the mind-jerk to clear the mind completely), one realizes that certain tendencies/urges will trigger mental associations and, from that root, the mental tree grows which eventually can manifest as action. The key is to cut that metaphorical tree at the root as soon as the initial thought/urge arises. One by one, one eliminates the personal separatist urges and , as that progresses, the lapses out of pure thought-free awareness become less and less frequent. Initially, however, one falls out of the thought-free awareness very quickly and quite frequently. Eventually, however, the thought-free awareness becomes more and more continuous. 3. The origin of intelligence is something that I have long pondered and, even recently, have changed my position. I would welcome your comments on what I am writing next. The sage Gaudapada, who was a preceptor of Shankaracharya and who wrote a commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad, cogently argues that the unity in apparent multiplicity as well as the inherent intelligence is "the very nature of the Effulgent Being". He scoffs at speculative creative theories as mere placebos to satisfy the masses. I am leaning towards his position on that subject --- that intelligence is "the very nature of the Effulgent Being". At first, I thought that this was a great "cop out" (LOL) but, as I meditate on it more and more, I am leaning towards that conclusion and have realized that there are other sages who have similarly come to the same conclusion. I would welcome your comments on this subject as it has raised questions for me many times in the past. 4. You seem to have hinted at your position when you refer to "all experiencers seemingly have a physical body ". With your implied position, I agree completely. It is my position that the body is actually a mental projection just as dream-bodies in a dream are a mental projection. Various sages point to this but my direct experiences have supported this position, and I will mention a couple of supporting experiences here in my response to your questions. When I was in my early 20s, I had a near death experience (NDE) during which I emerged from a 3-day "Irreversible Coma" completely symptom-free. (Details of what transpired during the NDE can be discussed at another time, as it was a life-transforming experience.) My parents were told to make the funeral arrangements as there was absolutely no hope whatsoever and, even if I did miraculously come out of the coma, they predicted extensive brain and organ damage. During the NDE, it became clear to me that it was not yet time to leave the physical body behind and that it would be well to return. I was aware of my consciousness slowly returning to the physical form "below" (that which was viewed previously from above) and I sat straight up SYMPTOM-FREE to the amazement of the entire medical staff at the hospital. That convinced me that the mind can change ANYTHING related to the body and that is consistent with the mental-projection point of view. In addition, you may or may not be familiar with the following well-documented multiple-personality-disorder (dissociative disorder nowadays) during which one personality has a serious dis-ease such as diabetes whereas another personality has no trace of the dis-ease. The dis-ease comes and goes instantaneously depending on the mental state (personality) of the person. I could give other examples to support my position on this subject but this should suffice for now. 5. It has been my experience that , in thought-free awareness, one drops body consciousness. To answer your question, therefore, I don't find it "localized in any part of the body". 6. You ask if objects actually exist. I think that the best answer to this question lies in the apparently paradoxical syllogism of Shankaracharya that is often quoted. When I first read them, they made no sense to me but they now appear to me to be brilliantly eloquent. "The Universe is unreal. Brahman is real. But Brahman is the Universe". Syllogistically speaking, this translates is the real is the unreal which presents an apparent paradox. What I believe that Shankaracharya is saying is that the Universe is unreal when one views it as an independent entity. With that perspective, objects are not "real". However, when one realizes that the Universe is a projection of the underlying Reality, one sees objects in a very different light and, in that sense, they are very real. To get back to Gaudapada's position mentioned previously, all is real if one views all as the "very nature of the Effulgent Being". Now, as I mentioned before, feel free to comment, question, challenge, and/or present refuting evidence. These are very deep subjects and I welcome your input and your input might trigger a change in my position. I want to thank you again for serving as a catalyst to a very thought-provoking, illuminating dialogue. Thank you !

Just as every dream-object in a dream is the consciousness of the dreamer, so is every object in the worldly appearance (wood, stone, etc.) a manifestation in the consciousness of the Source. (There is much truth in the Biblical expression that "man is made in the image of God" and the equivalent hermetic principle "As above, so below".) The implication is that one must re-connect with the Source whereby all things are possible just as all things are possible when one shifts attention from the dream-object to the dreamer. It should be obvious, however, that the re-connection to the Source assumes "resurrection in God" (one of my favorite positive expressions from a Sufi Master) as opposed to the less positive expression of annihilation of the little separatist self. Both expressions nonetheless are equally applicable.

In pure thought-free awareness, which is understandably difficult to sustain at times, there are no thoughts and hence no objects. At that point, one can shift attention from one aspect of one's nature to the other just as a lucid dreamer can shift perspectives between that of the dream-object and that of the dreamer. One discovers how to live metaphorically in "two worlds" (virtually) simultaneously. These are great points in a great dialogue, rideforever ! Feel free to share more.

While I am not a particularly big fan of Osho and some of his practices, my direct experience with the Rudolf Steiner group (both books and "meditation" groups) is consistent with this particular position of Osho's. I can relate to Steiner's writings because intellect (very important in scientific research) was my own major hindrance to the clear vision since I was an intellectual Phi Beta Kappa who took a lot of pride in my intelligence/ego; it took an extraordinary spiritual mentor to move me past the realms of thought in which Steiner's groups seem to be fixated. His techniques are, however, useful and I too employed them at various earlier stages in my spiritual unfolding without realizing that it was what he taught. (I only heard about Rudolf Steiner recently and, while I may go back to the nice friendly groups from time to time since one learns something from everyone and everything, his path is not my path at this point of time.)

I have been practicing "conscious sleep" for years, as it is a very effective and illuminating process described in traditions such as Tibetan Buddhism, Sufi "dying before death", yoga, and others. In my opinion, it goes beyond "lucid dreaming". As related to the dreaming aspect, one can remain aware in the stillness and peace of deep sleep ... and then watch dream formation from start to finish. One can also watch and study the transitions between the three states of man (Deep Sleep, Dreaming, and the so-called Waking State) as well as that which lies beyond. In dream formation, one can obviously shift attention between the dream-object and the dreamer. One discovers quickly that, in a dream, one can shift attention whenever one chooses and, of course, anything is possible then. There are some dream interpretations that are very obvious as they correspond to what is in our mind during the waking state. As you duly noted, some dreams are in symbolic form. Even deeper, when one transcends the three states, one has revelations regarding the nature of Reality. The great Tibetan Yogi, Milarepa, did dream work and, after realizing that he could do whatever he wanted in the dream state, he shifted his attention even deeper and realized that he could also do anything that he wanted in the "Cosmic Dream" of which one becomes aware once one goes beyond the realm of thoughts and ego. Herein lies the nature of the miraculous but, in that state beyond the ego, there is a very interesting propensity to identify with the whole and to act in the best interests of the whole with no ulterior motives. It may appear as magick, but it is deeply spiritual --- an awakening to one's original primal nature.

I was curious to see what the posters here had to say about Rudolf Steiner, as I recently was invited to a senior meditation group of his where they couldn't really answer any of my in-depth questions to my satisfaction. The meditation itself was extraordinarily basic and geared more to beginners than to an advanced group. I have read "Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, How It is Achieved" and there's a lot of good, basic information there. However, I didn't finish the book because it didn't go deep enough and there were things in it that ran contrary to intuition (at least for me). For others, as I am reading here, it might be well suited to their spiritual development. I investigated Stein because, for a brief moment, I had an urge to know more about the Akashic records. His following recommended a book to me, which I purchased but the name of which I can't recall because I got rid of it rather quickly. Although the followers were nice, I was very disappointed in what I experienced and also in what I read. Steiner is intellectually brilliant but I had serious concerns about his depth so I checked out some critiques of Rudolf Steiner online, as I often do when something troubles me. I came across a critique by Osho which resonated with my own intuitive impression of Rudolf Steiner. It might interest posters to read this and I am therefore posting the link. Feel free to share any comments that you may have, as I am certainly receptive to constructive comments. https://southerncrossreview.org/76/osho-steiner.html While readily conceding that Rudolf STEINER WAS A GREAT MIND, Osho goes on to confirm my own conclusions --- that Steiner does not really understand meditation. QUOTE: " Rudolf Steiner does not know what meditation is, and what he calls meditation is concentration. He's completely confused: he calls concentration meditation. Concentration is not meditation. Concentration is again a very, very useful means for scientific thinking. It is to concentrate the mind, narrow the mind, focus the mind on a certain thing. But the mind remains, becomes more focused, becomes more integrated. Meditation is not concentrating on anything. In fact, it is a relaxing, not narrowing. In concentration there is an object. In meditation there is no object at all. You are simply lost in an objectless consciousness, a diffusion of consciousness. Concentration is exclusive to something, and everything else is excluded from it. It includes only one thing; it excludes everything else."

Verse 77 in the Gospel of Thomas is also very thought-provoking and quite illuminating: Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all. From me all have come forth, and to me all has reached. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

The key point, as you duly summarized in your closing statement, is indeed that "The spirit is eternal and for those who have realized it, will not die."

What you wrote resonates as truth with me. There are often many interpretations to the same passage and all of them may very well be true.

Actually, the whole verse is interesting but that particular passage caught my attention. In reading "Journey of Souls" by Michael Newton, his conclusions include the possibility that there may be various levels of creation with not-so-perfect souls-in-training creating some universes just as we ourselves create dream universes. My spiritual teacher spoke cryptically at first about "time within time". There is a story from the Yoga Vashistha which talks about worlds within worlds. The Christian Jesuit mystic Teillard de Chardin spoke about a matrix of worlds, both hierarchical and parallel. Before reading any of the above, my own visually-oriented meditations led me to the same conclusion though I readily concede that those meditations were unexpected revelations "outside the box" (so to speak) at first. That is when my spiritual mentor started to "go there" and speak on such subjects. Those are my thoughts on verse 11. I am starting to tire of the more mundane "of course" discussions and participate in them less and less. The part about "when you were one you became two" seems somewhat clear and more conventional than the rest and that's why I didn't comment on that part of the verse. Also, Jesus once said cryptically "let the dead bury the dead" and my sense is that he was talking about those who are dead to eternal life. Hence, the rest of the verse did not capture my imagination sufficiently to introduce it as a topic for discussion. Parts of the verse just seemed conventionally clear while the part that I quoted is not often discussed and hence I introduced the subject.

I found verse 11 in the Gospel of Thomas to be particularly intriguing: Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die."

Many years ago, I was interested in Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. I tend to research deeply things in which I am interested. At that time, I had a friend who introduced me to some one who had known Gurdjieff personally. (She had spent time in the Crimea with Gurdjieff while fleeing from Russia at the time of the Russian Revolution. Her father had been court painter for the Romanovs and she had lived at court until the Revolution. She knew Gurdjieff well and stated that she regularly beat him at chess.) After discussing Gurdjieff with her and hearing more about Ouspensky, my spiritual practices proceeded in a different direction and I never looked back. Gurdjieff apparently exhibited a very powerful presence but, as you duly noted, "indications are that Mr. G. lost it" and I won't go further. As you probably know, Gurdjieff was interested in movement among other things and wanted this woman to collaborate with him on movement exercises. (Instead, she ended up eventually in NYC and became a prima ballerina under Balanchine. )

The implication "that human bodies existed independently from the souls that now influence them" also left me with questions similar to yours. I must ponder that more. There were other questions raised with me that are consistent with what you wrote.

Personally, I found the sections on "The Advanced Soul" and "Selection" to be particularly interesting as the process resonated with me even though some of the details didn't. Unfortunately, as the author duly noted, there was understandably very little about the advanced soul since those types are clearly not inclined to come in for hypnotherapy. Hence, despite the various points of view, most of the perspectives are from the lower levels of spiritual development and thus everything is somewhat skewed downward. Nonetheless, it was interesting. Particularly riveting were some of his conclusions --- especially the parts about the hierarchy of spiritual worlds which raises the possibility that a less-than-perfect God of a particular universe might indeed be a soul-in-training. The hierarchy resonated with me completely though, once again, I must think more about some of the details.

Once again, words become a barrier to descriptions. It is a fact that Edgar Cayce read the entire Bible once a year for every year in his life ... with a little catching up for the child years when he couldn't read. Also, as you duly pointed out, Cayce did have at least some revelations that were in conflict with his traditional Christian beliefs that he taught in Bible class. He reconciled himself with those revelations and did explore the traditions of other cultures as you also said. I agree with you completely that he "parted so drastically from typical Christian mythology". Perhaps, I should not have put a label on Cayce as his teachings and readings speak for themselves. I am familiar with the book, "There is a River". Are you familiar with the excellent documentary on the life of the "Sleeping Prophet"? (One could argue that even the word "Prophet" doesn't apply since many of his "prophecies" did not come to fruition. That is mentioned in the documentary whose link I am providing below.) How would you describe the Cayce phenomenon as well as Cayce himself ?

I just posted this on another site but would be interesting in discussing this statement from Ramana Maharshi on this site. Talk 177 from "Talks with Ramana Maharshi" (this goes deep into the process of creation): Ramana: "...the body and all other objects are contained in the brain. The LIGHT (my caps) is projected on the brain. The impressions in the brain become manifest as the body and the world. Because the ego identifies itself with limitations, the body is considered separate and the world separate." I've practiced conscious sleep for years with the understanding that "Man is made in the image of God" and "As above so below". When one watches dream formation from start to finish, one can see how the light (of the dreamer in this case) projects on the brain of the dream-objects and how the impressions in the brain of the dream-object project the dream-body and the entire dream-world. It was Ramana's words, as noted above, that moved me to explore in this direction. When one can still the mind ("Be still and know ... that ... I AM ... God"), one can sense alluring vibrations that are more subtle than thoughts. These vibrations, as many sages will affirm, pull one from the crown chakra (sahasrara) towards the LIGHT of the Source. The sounds are as alluring as the sounds of the sirens luring sailors to the distant shore in the Homeric epic, the Odyssey. This would be an very interesting subject for further discussion. (Edgar Cayce, the American Christian mystic who was reportedly able to read the Akashic Records of the Cosmic mind, talks about a dot --- possibly the OM point in Hindu terminology --- which he becomes as he travels towards the LIGHT drawing him to the Source. The "dot" --- bindu --- in OM is generally considered to be the symbolic representation of the seed from which the universe springs into existence.)

Excellent point ! What more can one add to it ! One can only repeat it: "Unreal in this context means something that is impermanent and not independently existent."

I love this story so much that I actually posted it verbatim in its entirety without comment on another site (www.spiritualforums.org) while giving you complete credit for being the source of the story. It's awesome and thought-provoking to many while being very clear to those who have met a "Master B" and a "Master A". Thanks again for sharing this wonderful, illuminating story.

Thank you, dwai !

It is reported that Ramakrishna similarly touched Vivikenanda and, in that manner, gave him a glimpse of what it's like to have one's butt kicked through the gateless gate (using your terminology). I agree with your assessment that "the answer might lie in whether the student was able to grasp what was being transmitted by Master A in silence." I think that I was alluding to that in noting the importance of the purification process in making us receptive to receive the transmission. My sense is that we are writing is largely on the same wavelength. I too can relate to what Jeff is writing since I once wanted words, words, and more words with explanations. it fed my ego and my intellect. (As Pir Vilayat Khan once said of the intellect and the ego, they are very important until they are no longer needed.) I too wanted teachers who could come down to my level immediately as needed.Things change with time. Like the proverbial chicken trying to peck its way out of the self-limiting shell, the mother chicken (guru) watches patiently until it sees a breakthrough opportunity and then pecks at the weak point in the shell as the breakthrough happens quite suddenly and all is revealed.

It was difficult to describe what I experienced in words. It was the best I could do. It has to be experienced to be understood. It is definitely NOT intellectual understanding. It is definitely beyond the realm of thoughts, as you indicated, and that is a characteristic of the Buddhist jhanas after the first jhana. It is, as another poster once wrote, "knowing without thinking". Once again, one gets bogged down in words. The key is that what I was pondering was resolved in some indescribable way without thoughts. Before my teacher left the earth plane, I recalled asking her a question. She looked at me for a long time before responding, "You're an experienced meditator. Meditate and all will be revealed." The revelations manifest in many different ways, but they do manifest.

I fully understand what you are saying regarding your concept of a "true master" teaching at the level of the student. I once thought exactly the same way. Nisargadatta Maharaj once said that "there are numerous primary teachers to teach the alphabet". Students will naturally be drawn to the level of teaching best suited to them, as in the story that we are discussing. The student clearly belonged with Master C, while Master C correctly pointed out that purification is absolutely necessary for a student to be able to proceed to a Master such as Master A. (It's almost like a student expecting a teacher in a PhD course in Quantum Physics to bring the level of the class down to the level of a novice student. That student clearly must first go to some preliminary classes on the subject.) I can most assuredly relate to your dilemma as, many years ago, I went to see Sri Chinmoy in person in New York City. He did not speak but sat there in complete silence. At that point in time, I required further purification and could not clear the mind completely of thoughts and concepts. I got nothing out of the session and never went back. (Whether Sri Chinmoy was a "true master" or not is irrelevant for purposes of this discussion; that session was completely unfulfilling for me as silent sessions are probably similarly unfulfilling to you.) Many years later, after significant purification had taken place, I was fortunate to be in the presence of more than one "Master A" types ("true masters" in my opinion) during which the silent teaching was indeed far superior to anything I had experienced before. (I described what takes place in these silent sessions in another post, so it does not seem necessary to repeat that here.) I will, however, share another intermediate story that took place right here in NYC with a "homeless" black man, a "Master B" type who did not reveal himself for two years after our first meeting. I met him in Grand Central Station on Thanksgiving evening many many years ago. There was something very special about his energy and I was drawn to him for some inexplicable reason. I offered to buy him something to eat and he graciously accepted. I paid the bill, patted myself on the back for the good deed (ego, ego, ego), and left. For the next two years, I kept running into this man at Grand Central Station, at St. Francis of Assisi Church, or sometimes on the street. I always took him out to lunch/dinner and would talk to him as good-deeders (ego,ego,ego) often do. Sometimes, he would ask an apparent "dumb" question that left me thinking afterwards that it wasn't so "dumb" after all. Sometimes, he would make an apparently "dumb" statement that similarly was not so "dumb" and left me pondering afterwards. Finally, after about two years, he revealed himself in a very shocking manner. I had just walked out of St. Francis of Assissi during a sermon which did not resonate well with me. He was standing in the vestibule so I naturally took him out to lunch. While we were eating, my thoughts (yes, thoughts, NOT words) wandered to the sermon with questions. All of a sudden, he directly answered the first question quite profoundly. I was stunned but discarded it as a "coincidence". It then happened a second time, a third time, and then a fourth time. It was suddenly very clear that this was not a "coincidence" and I stopped thinking altogether and just stared incredulously at him. He simply responded, "Isn't it obvious that people can read each other's minds?" He then proceeded to counsel me on spiritual unfolding as if he had known me for my entire life and was aware of everything in my psyche. It was sensitive and not threatening at all. Since I had known him for two years already, I asked why he hadn't spoken to me like that before. He answered that I was not even at a point where he could discuss basics with me. (Ego took a big hit there. LOL) Wanting to continue the dialogue, I offered to take him home that evening but he refused. I offered to give him my phone number so he could call collect at any time. He refused. He did say, however, that whenever I needed him he would be there. True to his word, for the next 7 years, he manifested seemingly out of nowhere whenever I was doing things that were "less than noble" to put it mildly. LOL Like Master B in the story, he would speak in few words but they were penetrating words that boggled my mind. Our parting was unusual as he suddenly announced on one encounter that I wouldn't be seeing him any more. I was upset and wondered whether I had done something wrong. He simply replied that his work with me was done and that another teacher would come to take his place. (This proved to be true.) He then hugged me and proceeded to walk away. I couldn't let go so I followed him down the street and was only a couple of steps behind him as he turned the corner. I then turned the corner only seconds after he did, and there was no one there. I never saw him again, as he had stated, but another teacher did come to take his place. What I am saying is that there are various levels of teachers and we are naturally drawn to teachers best suited to our needs and temperaments AND level of purification. As Nisargadatta Maharaj also said, the realized ones tend to speak less and often communicate in utter silence. That has been my experience. No longer do I have sustained interest in complicated theories expressed in inadequate words. Such theories, while consistent within themselves, are nonetheless interesting/entertaining and I definitely do indulge. I learn from all --- even those who talk a lot and quote from the various scriptures. However, more often than not now, I gravitate towards those who speak less or communicate in complete and utter silence as well as those who can describe from direct experience the process whereby they enter the stillness in which all things are revealed. All the rest is talk --- albeit helpful at times --- but just talk.

In the case of Master A, I can only comment from my direct experiences with Masters who have taught in utter silence. There is definitely more going on. To be receptive, one must still the mind completely. Then, if a question should arise, the entire "response" simply floods one's consciousness as when one opens one's eyes on top of a mountain. One does not see things sequentially, as with words, but the complete understanding floods one's consciousness just as the whole panorama floods one's vision when one opens one's eyes on top of a mountain. Once one "digests" the happening, there may be some silent contemplation on what has transpired after which one returns to the stillness until another question arises. When there are no questions arising, one simply abides in the peace of the Great Stillness. Some of my "silent interactions" lasted as long as 3 hours.