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@Nungali This is an awesome article, I think, that sums up some of the concepts we've been discussing. It even mentions Lapis Lazuli from Afghanistan. https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium-1177-bce-the-year-civilization-was-destroyed-1.5350507 It seems that we know so much more about The Iron Age, which makes sense since the farther you go back in time the harder it is to find things. But, the collapse of civilization probably didn't help. Much was lost. Like you said, though, people were moving all over the place exchanging technologies, goods, ideas, religions... The BMAC and Central Asia we're part of that complex network. Hopefully someday that area will stabilize and modern archeology techniques can be employed to uncover more.

Thanks for sharing all of this. Lately I've been really interested in this region, too. It all started when I watched the video by Indigo Speaker, The True History of the Bible: https://youtu.be/DUBwboig61Q (YouTube won't allow this video to be embedded here for some reason). Anyway, I looked for other sources to back up what he says. I found what most people would consider "legitimate" sources to back it up. It's all true and totally destroys the worldview that many people in the Evangelical community hold. Then as I dug deeper and learned about things like the collapse of the Bronze Age, invasions by "The Sea People" during the collapse throughout the Mediterranean, chariots were invented in Central Asia, horses were domesticated in Central Asia, then horses and chariots were taken to the Middle East and Egypt, people from Central Asia we're part of the Hyksos along with Semites that briefly ruled Egypt, Indo-Iranian (the real Aryan people), Proto-Indo-European (PIE) language... I could go on and on. What I'm trying to say is that there is still much to be learned about the influence of ancient Central Asian cultures. I think they were way more advanced than people realize, just as much as Egypt, the Levant, and Mesopotamia.

@welkin It sounds like you subscribe to the Dragon Door school of fitness. Good stuff, but you ask about safe Daoist methods. The worst injury I ever sustained in my life was doing snatches with a 1 pood kettlebell. That was 14 years ago and my back has never been the same since. Don't get me wrong, I love kettlebells. I still use them. I was using kettlebells before they were cool and the only place you could get them was from Pavel and Dragon Door. Weight training is awesome, don't let anyone discourage you from doing it. Study after study has proven it to be a superior, life extending form of exercise. Look at Pavel Tsatsouline, he is not a big man, but very strong. His methods are very much about building internal strength, too. I also tried Scott Sonnon clubbells. Didn't get into them too much, but I do like doing Turkish Get Ups with a club. Really gets the forearms burning. My favorite implement now is a sandbag. Check these out - https://www.repfitness.com/conditioning/strength-equipment/sand-bags/rep-sandbags-v1 Add in some dumbbells and a balance ball and you have everything you need. As for the other stuff... I am have dabbled in many things over the past 30+ years. Tried Kundalini Yoga - the Yogi Bhajan people weren't my peeps. Neither were the Qaballah or Hermetic folks. I found my home with Qigong. I now practice Zhineng Qigong. I also do Zhan Zhuang. Yesterday I just got the book 'The Mind Illuminated' so that I can add sitting meditation to my regimen. Too me it all fits together perfectly. It's OK to experiment. You've been given some good advice by other people here, too. I think the important thing is to find what you like then stick with it. For me the main thing has always been weight lifting. I've been doing it for 37 years (since I was 12). It changed me and is a big part of who I am today. It transformed me from a kid that always got picked on to being someone who could stand up to anyone. Today peoples' jaws drop when I tell them how old I am. They think I'm 15 years younger.

Have you found this article yet? https://flowingzen.com/5523/where-in-the-world-is-dantian/ I guess something to keep in mind is that we are not talking about physical anatomy here. The energy body is going to be a little different for everybody. Something I read once is that people often mistake the dantien to be too far forward. So, before I start my qigong I like to put one hand on duqi and the other on mingmen to center myself and find my dantien on the line that connects them. I think we tend to visualize ourselves as we see ourselves in the mirror (looking at our front). Putting that little bit of pressure on my back helps me to sink my perception deeper inside.

Thanks for sharing your stories. It's nice to hear from others that are on this journey where we are learning from all of these different sources. I have been wanting to raise the subject of how we are combining all of these religions/philosophies/techniques into something new. I was raised a Christian and still find much power in the teaching of Jesus. But, I saw him in a new light after reading Nisargadatta. Fundamentalists will say I'm supermarket shopping for religion. But, I think all religions have developed as a mish-mash of influences as people came into contact with new cultures and new ideas. Today, the whole world is connected and there is something to be learned from everyone. Now I am incorporating Buddhist and Daoist practices into my life.

Everyone has a bias, regardless of how learned they are. We are the sum of our experiences, or rather how we internalized those experiences. Our brains take shortcuts in reasoning based on those internalized thought pathways. It's the only way we can function, our physical minds are limited in this way.

Reminds me of a song by Living Colour - This Is The Life In another life You might have been a genius In another life You might have been a star In another life Your face might have been perfect In another life You'd drive a better car In another life All your jokes are funny In another life Your heart is free from fear In another life You make a lot of money In this other life Everything is clear In another life You're always the hero In another life You always win the game In another life No one ever cheats you In another life You never have to change In another life Your friends never desert you In another life You never have to cry In another life No one ever hurts you In this other life Your loved-ones never die But this is the life you have This is the life you have This is the life you have This is the life In another life You're always the victim In another life You're always the thief In another life You are always lonely In this other life There is no relief In your real life Treat it like it's special In your real life Try to be more kind In your real life Think of those that love you In this real life Try to be less blind

What is your goal? Here is a long, well researched list. http://www.egreenway.com/qigong/index.htm

What is your warmup routine? I had to briefly suspended my ZZ practice because of knee pain. What was I going wrong? Instead of doing knee circles, hip circles, and arm circles I switched to doing Ba Duan Jin for a warmup. Bad idea. I was spending to much time in a static horse stance. Is your pain deep or more toward the surface? If it is toward the surface then myofascial release or trigger point muscle therapy might help. I also work in front of a computer all day and this has given me much relief. I see that you (the OP) are in the UK. When I went to that muscle therapist, that I mentioned in a previous post, being the kind of person I am I asked a lot of questions. I asked what style of therapy he was using. He said it was British Sports Therapy. Also, look up the Three Monkeys School of Qigong ( .http://www.3monkeysqigong.co.uk/map_of_teachers/ ) to find a teacher. I have corresponded with John Millar. I am taking his course on Udemy. He was very kind with his responses.

Many years ago I sought out a muscle therapist. I fell backwards and landed on my shoulder playing volleyball. I could not lift my right arm straight in front (like changing the radio station in the car) without a shooting pain going down my arm. This lasted for two years. After 3 sessions with a muscle therapist I was completely fixed.

http://www.zhinengqigong.org/methods/level2.html Step 2 is specific to the shoulders. What kind of shoulder pain are you experiencing? Even though I am a weightlifter I have experienced discomfort in my deltoids when doing Lift Qi Up, Pour Qi Down. Same for doing Master LKC's style of ZZ standing at the stake. In both cases, though, I think it is because I failed to relax. The arms should float up and not be moved by muscular tension.

As a practitioner of Zhineng, I've found Gina Lim's videos to be very helpful. There are also shoulder exercises in the 'Body & Mind' method. Also, I think wall squats are helpful for correcting alignment issues all over the body. Perhaps adopting the Three Centers Merge posture for ZZ might help, too.

At first I thought I would just stay out of this discussion because I am relatively new here. But, that is precisely the reason I think I need to speak up. I have learned so much in the time that I have been here and I have gained so much encouragement to move forward on my current path. I feel like I'm starting to make some friends here and am so thankful for the advice that some have taken the time to give me through PM. I would be very sad to see knowledgeable, experienced people leave because of a few trolls. Hopefully I'm not giving myself too much credit here, but I think it's pretty easy to spot a troll and their BS. Can I ask why people just don't ignore their BS and not respond to them? What do trolls want most? ATTENTION. Am I wrong to think that if you just ignore them they will go away. As long as they are not inciting violence there is no need to ban them, just don't encourage them.

The 'Lift Qi Up, Pour Qi Down' course on Udemy by the 3 Monkeys School of Qigong is excellent. It goes into a lot of detail, but it's easy to follow. They are very good teachers. I gave it a 5 Star review. That is the starting point for Zhineng. If you want in-depth explanations of the theory behind Zhineng and additional methods then download the book, 'The Methods of Zhineng Qigong Science' from daohearts.com. Payment went smoothly through PayPal. For some free videos on YouTube you can watch Gina Lim, Luke Chan, and Mingtong Gu. There is another online teaching website - www.zhigongonline.com . It has a paid subscription, but I have been watching some of the free content from Master Liu. Also on YouTube is the 'Qi Channel' and talks/interviews with Ooi Kean Hin. Ooi has also authored several books on Zhineng.

I think Zhineng Qigong has everything you are looking for. It also goes by two other names: Wisdom Healing and Chilel. What I am using is a course on Udemy. It is very good and affordable, $11 right now. https://www.udemy.com/lift-qi-up-pour-qi-down/ I've also ordered the book, The Methods of Zhineng Qigong Science, from here for $20. https://www.daohearts.com/books/ More free resources: http://www.zhinengqigong.org/index.html I haven't used these (yet), but Mingtong Gu has online instruction. https://www.chicenter.com/Chi/Home/index.cfm BTW, I'm an engineer, bought several books, tried a few things, and this is what I settled on. It's a very comprehensive system.

I am working my way through the Zhineng Qigong system. I daily practice (usually starting after 11pm) 'Lift Qi Up, Pour Qi Down'. If I'm not too tired I will do '3 Centers Merge' Zhan Zhuang for 20 minutes. On the days I don't lift weights I do 100 wall squats, currently my feet are hip width with toes 2 inches from the wall. I'm learning the movements of the 'Body & Mind' form as time allows. I lift weights twice a week for 1 hour. I have a stretching routine that I do daily that takes about 10 minutes. I'm also slowly working my way through a Usui Reiki course. Reading 'Prior to Consciousness' by Nisargadatta Maharaj.

"The only religion that makes sense to the modern, scientific mind is Advaita Vedanta" This is the real reason church membership in the West is declining. Now that we are a highly literate society people have read the Bible enough to realize that it doesn't make any sense. But, when faith is lost a void is created and hence all the woes of society that we see today (opioid crisis, mass shootings, and suicide).

Yes, after doing my research that's why I selected it. I'm an engineer so I have a mindset that always looks for the most efficient solution. I'm married with 2 kids, too. So, I don't have a lot of time. I do weight workouts and do a lot of compound movements, once again, to be efficient. I have to do my qigong at 11 at night after everyone goes to bed. It's the only time I can get to myself.

Yep, all out west. I'm in Pittsburgh.

After doing Zhan Zhuang Zhineng style with Three Centers Merge for a few days I might have some insight now. I read up on Yiquan Zhan Zhuang and it seems like it's purpose is to create a steel wrapped in cotton body. 3 Centers seems more like a meditation and is not meant to be an internal martial art. Sinking down with toes pointed in seems more supportive and requires less work from stabilizer muscles. One other observation, the time seems to pass more quickly when I do 3 Centers Merge.

God Is An Astronaut is great for doing qigong late at night. It keeps me awake, yet it is relaxing.

I just started reading 'Prior To Consciousness: Talks with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj'. I found a PDF I could download to my phone. I read this article that said that 'I Am That' is like kindergarten, this book is like graduate school. https://realization.org/p/nisargadatta/nisargadatta.html

This is what I hope to get from my Qigong practice - To allow my mind to enter a state where I can experience "I AM". This conversation with Maharaj Nisargadatta in 'I Am That' seems to say everything that needs to be said. Why is it so hard for us to do? 65. A Quiet Mind is All You Need Questioner: I am not well. I feel rather weak. What am I to do? Maharaj: Who is unwell, you or the body? Q: My body, of course. M: Yesterday you felt well. What felt well? Q: The body. M: You were glad when the body was well and you are sad when the body is unwell. Who is glad one day and sad the next? Q: The mind. M: And who knows the variable mind? Q: The mind. M: The mind is the knower. Who knows the knower? Q: Does not the knower know itself? M: The mind is discontinuous. Again and again it blanks out, like in sleep or swoon, or distraction. There must be something continuous to register discontinuity. Q: The mind remembers. This stands for continuity. M: Memory is always partial, unreliable and evanescent. It does not explain the strong sense of identity pervading consciousness, the sense 'I am'. Find out what is at the root of it. Q: However deeply I look, I find only the mind. Your words 'beyond the mind' give me no clue. M: While looking with the mind, you cannot go beyond it. To go beyond, you must look away from the mind and its contents. Q: In what direction am I to look? M: All directions are within the mind! I am not asking you to look in any particular direction. Just look away from all that happens in your mind and bring it to the feeling 'I am'. The 'I am' is not a direction. It is the negation of all direction. Ultimately even the 'I am' will have to go, for you need not keep on asserting what is obvious. Bringing the mind to the feeling 'I am' merely helps in turning the mind away from everything else. Q: Where does it all lead me? M: When the mind is kept away from its preoccupations, it becomes quiet. If you do not disturb this quiet and stay in it, you find that it is permeated with a light and a love you have never known; and yet you recognise it at once as your own nature. Once you have passed through this experience, you will never be the same man again; the unruly mind may break its peace and obliterate its vision; but it is bound to return, provided the effort is sustained; until the day when all bonds are broken, delusions and attachments end and life becomes supremely concentrated in the present. Q: What difference does it make? M: The mind is no more. There is only love in action. Q: How shall I recognise this state when I reach it? M: There will be no fear. Q: Surrounded by a world full of mysteries and dangers, how can I remain unafraid? M: Your own little body too is full of mysteries and dangers, yet you are not afraid of it, for you take it as your own. What you do not know is that the entire universe is your body and you need not be afraid of it. You may say you have two bodies; the personal and the universal. The personal comes and goes, the universal is always with you. The entire creation is your universal body. You are so blinded by what is personal, that you do not see the universal. This blindness will not end by itself -- it must be undone skilfully and deliberately. When all illusions are understood and abandoned, you reach the error-free and perfect state in which all distinctions between the personal and the universal are no more. Q: I am a person and therefore limited in space and time. I occupy little space and last but a few moments; I cannot even conceive myself to be eternal and all-pervading. M: Nevertheless you are. As you dive deep into yourself in search of your true nature, you will discover that only your body is small and only your memory is short; while the vast ocean of life is yours. Q: The very words 'I' and 'universal' are contradictory. One excludes the other. M: They don't. The sense of identity pervades the universal. Search and you shall discover the Universal Person, who is yourself and infinitely more. Anyhow, begin by realising that the world is in you, not you in the world. Q: How can it be? I am only a part of the world. How can the whole world be contained in the part, except by reflection, mirror like? M: What you say is true. Your personal body is a part in which the whole is wonderfully reflected. But you have also a universal body. You cannot even say that you do not know it, because you see and experience it all the time. Only you call it 'the world' and are afraid of it. Q: I feel I know my little body, while the other I do not know, except through science. M: Your little body is full of mysteries and wonders which you do not know. There also science is your only guide. Both anatomy and astronomy describe you. Q: Even If I accept your doctrine of the universal body as a working theory, in what way can I test it and of what use is it to me? M: Knowing yourself as the dweller in both the bodies you will disown nothing. All the universe will be your concern; every living thing you will love and help most tenderly and wisely. There will be no clash of interests between you and others. All exploitation will cease absolutely. Your every action will be beneficial, every movement will be a blessing. Q: It is all very tempting, but how am I to proceed to realise my universal being? M: You have two ways: you can give your heart and mind to self-discovery, or you accept my words on trust and act accordingly. In other words, either you become totally self-concerned, or totally un-self-concerned. It is the word 'totally' that is important. You must be extreme to reach the Supreme. Q: How can I aspire to such heights, small and limited as I am? M: realise yourself as the ocean of consciousness in which all happens. This is not difficult. A little of attentiveness, of close observation of oneself, and you will see that no event is outside your consciousness. Q: The world is full of events which do not appear in my consciousness. M: Even your body is full of events which do not appear in your consciousness. This does not prevent you from claiming your body to be your own. You know the world exactly as you know your body -- through your senses. It is your mind that has separated the world outside your skin from the world inside and put them in opposition. This created fear and hatred and all the miseries of living. Q: What I do not follow is what you say about going beyond consciousness. I understand the words, but I cannot visualise the experience. After all, you yourself have said that all experience is in consciousness. M: You are right, there can be no experience beyond consciousness. Yet there is the experience of just being. There is a state beyond consciousness, which is not unconscious. Some call it superconsciousness, or pure consciousness, or supreme consciousness. It is pure awareness free from the subject object nexus. Q: I have studied Theosophy and I find nothing familiar in what you say. I admit Theosophy deals with manifestation only. It describes the universe and its inhabitants in great details. It admits many levels of matter and corresponding levels of experience, but it does not seem to go beyond. What you say goes beyond all experience. If it is not experienceable, why at all talk about it? M: Consciousness is intermittent, full of gaps. Yet there is the continuity of identity. What is this sense of identity due to, if not to something beyond consciousness? Q: If I am beyond the mind, how can I change myself? M: Where is the need of changing anything? The mind is changing anyhow all the time. Look at your mind dispassionately; this is enough to calm it. When it is quiet, you can go beyond it. Do not keep it busy all the time. Stop it -- and just be. If you give it rest, it will settle down and recover its purity and strength. Constant thinking makes it decay. Q: If my true being is always with me, how is it that I am ignorant of it? M: Because it is very subtle and your mind is gross, full of gross thoughts and feelings. Calm and clarify your mind and you will know yourself as you are. Q: Do I need the mind to know myself? M: You are beyond the mind, but you know with your mind. It is obvious that the extent, depth and character of knowledge depend on what instrument you use. Improve your instrument and your knowledge will improve. Q: To know perfectly I need a perfect mind. M: A quiet mind is all you need. All else will happen rightly, once your mind is quiet. As the sun on rising makes the world active, so does self-awareness affect changes in the mind. In the light of calm and steady self-awareness inner energies wake up and work miracles without any effort on your part. Q: You mean to say that the greatest work is done by not working? M: Exactly. Do understand that you are destined for enlightenment. Co-operate with your destiny, don't go against it, don’t thwart it. Allow it to fulfil itself. All you have to do is to give attention to the obstacles created by the foolish mind.

I'm having a hard time finding Zhineng/Chilel/Wisdom Healing teachers or practitioners in the U.S. My only option seems to be to get on a plane an attend a workshop.