cah5896
-
Content count
25 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Everything posted by cah5896
-
Hello, I hope it's okay to repost my welcome post. Hello, Not quite sure what to say, but suppose it's best to be direct. I'm in my early 20s and from a traditionalist conservative evangelical Christian background. I've studied some in universities, traveled a lot, wrestled with my faith a lot, and through a long questioning process, finally was able to abandon my faith in Christianity. I have resentments towards Christians, and Americans in general, traveling has really shown me what a messed up place America is, but I know I need to grow out of resentment. Anyway, I read Tao Te Ching and Zhuangzi's teachings, and they really resonated with me, and then I found J Krishnamurti, and he seems to take Taoism to its logical conclusion better than most religious Taoists do. I've seen how every country has its idols, its Gods. In the end, it's all meaningless, emptiness. Religion is a crutch. Even secular countries feel the need to worship "democracy", "science", and "equality". Most people have a need to know things, to have things figured out. Anyway, I guess what I mean is I have low tolerance for BS. I know it's pointless to strive for immortality. I don't really care for a "kundalini awakening", or "opening the chakras". Does anyone know of a place where I can find a master that actually practices what's expressed in the Tao Te Ching and Zhuangzi without overemphasis on exercises? A place where I can go live out my life without dealing with a public that just wants some blessings or stress relief exercises while continuing to live their miserable lives? Maybe a cave or remote mountain, like the days of old? I'm in Taiwan right now. I'm willing to travel anywhere in Asia or even beyond. I don't understand the mindset of most religious Taoists here. I struggle to see the value of putting an exercise first, and adding in a bunch of other dogma from Buddhism like karma and reincarnation. In christianity you're put on a treadmill where you're supposed to go out and do good works and evangelize. Buddhism and Karma doesn't strike me as much different. Just another opportunity for people to lord power over others. Am I crazy?
-
@Starjumper Or I suppose in terms that would align more with your mind, is your knowledge of the word empty the same as walker's, as well as your knowledge of Allah?
-
@Starjumper Would you agree with what seems to be walker's reasoning, that other people creating supposed knowledge about supposed beings or terms in the English vocabulary is real knowledge that I should apply also? Other than that, I absolutely see your point now.
-
@Starjumper What good is knowing things that you don't believe in?
-
@Walker It's like you want me to think anything anyone else believes is true, all while denying everything I believe. I'm just supposed to be an extension of those around me eh? "Die to self"
-
And may the hard work of Deng Xiaoping and the CCP not be in vain as the threats of the crazy orange man threaten China.
-
@Walker You're still twisting everything subtly, taking everything at face value, and thinking in words. Of course we tried to make converts, and arguing with people is one way to possibly convert. Yes, you have tremendous emotional intelligence that I don't have. So what. You're putting it to bad use. In regards to Buddhist Thailand, you're using one example to sound like universal truth. And also it's based on someone's own testimony, which assumes that their assessment (ie. Meditation is important, having grassy picnic space is important) is universal truth that applies to me also. Of course this is classic American reasoning as well. We'll go to war based on one testimony that ends up being false later, like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony, or https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_and_the_Iraq_War Also how is knowing the characteristics of a fictional being real knowledge? And oops, I backtracked and made the assumption that knowledge is always valuable, which it isn't. Peanuts objectively exist, but not Allah or Buddhist emptiness. And why would I want to learn more about Buddhism unless it brought more value to my life. What I gather is everything I think, feel, and have experienced is invalid in your mind, and I'd do well to defer to literally anyone except myself, because they all know better than me, the Buddhist, the Muslim, everyone. I'm just a dumb person in my 20s who thinks I know everything, and need to be whipped into shape. There's a certain tendency of people in your generation to have a God complex, and you seem to fit the type. You'd like me better if I were more like eh?
-
@wandelaar @Fa Xin Thank you for your good advice too.
-
@Walker If people actually thought with the logic you use in the first paragraph we'd all be complete doormats, treating falsehoods and drivel the same way we treat precious truth in the name of having "no contradictions".
-
@Walker The more I read over those first two paragraphs in your last response the more I feel justified in being a bit nasty to you. That's absolutely false logic and there are contradictions in the Tao, there are good and evil. In fact the Tao is all about contradictions. Just because we see the beauty because there is ugliness doesn't change the fact that ugliness is ugliness.
-
@Rocky Lionmouth Thank you. You strike me as having a very good grasp on the Tao, and you are the type I'm willing to learn from.
-
@Walker When I was deep, deep into Christianity I would have sounded similar to you if I was arguing against a doubter. You say I'm not looking deep enough under the surface. What have these religions we've been dealing with for the past 2000 years done for us except cause more hardship, more wars, and loss of freedom? Maybe they help some people cope with life better because they pretend something is real mentally, but that's it. What do the people in Thailand get out of the monks except being required to give money in exchange for prayers, blessings, etc. I'm never going to out-debate you without delving as deep into your religion as you have, but that doesn't make me automatically wrong. And once again you seemed to misunderstand something about what I said regarding contradictions. I meant there are people like you who are Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc who really believe in their religion and would want to convert me to it. You accuse me of not seeing the deeper meaning behind things, but you certainly take what I say at very face value and seem to think in words a lot. Sure I don't know the "appropriate Buddhist meaning" of a word like empty, but that only matters if the Buddhist definition is the right one, and I'm done taking things on "faith" like what you do in Christianity. Does not understanding how the Muslims view Allah's character make me a less knowledgeable and wise person? I think that is absolutely ridiculous. When you say ancient teachings have layers upon layers of meaning, I'm guessing what you really mean is other people have found all this meaning, and again, I'm supposed to put all my faith in them like I put faith in my Christian pastor. You're cut from the same cloth as a lot of other people I've had experience with. You strike me as someone who would probably have more in common with an average Christian pastor than Laozi. You're probably pretty good at manipulating people emotionally too, and I've gone through some of your post history, and there seems to be a trend. I'm a student of Nietzsche too. "Others are sharp and clever, But I alone am dull and stupid. Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea, Without direction, like the restless wind" With that, I've already broken many Taoist principles with this thread and probably should be done, while you who claim to have much more figured out, but of course would never admit having it all figured out to appear humble, stay in your bubble of tradition and knowledge that comes across more Confucian-Buddhist, while I go to a mountain to try to figure things out on my own.
-
Hello, Not quite sure what to say, but suppose it's best to be direct. I'm in my early 20s and from a traditionalist conservative evangelical Christian background. I've studied some in universities, traveled a lot, wrestled with my faith a lot, and through a long questioning process, finally was able to abandon my faith in Christianity. I have resentments towards Christians, and Americans in general, traveling has really shown me what a messed up place America is, but I know I need to grow out of resentment. Anyway, I read Tao Te Ching and Zhuangzi's teachings, and they really resonated with me, and then I found J Krishnamurti, and he seems to take Taoism to its logical conclusion better than most religious Taoists do. I've seen how every country has its idols, its Gods. In the end, it's all meaningless, emptiness. Religion is a crutch. Even secular countries feel the need to worship "democracy", "science", and "equality". Most people have a need to know things, to have things figured out. Anyway, I guess what I mean is I have low tolerance for BS. I know it's pointless to strive for immortality. I don't really care for a "kundalini awakening", or "opening the chakras". Does anyone know of a place where I can find a master that actually practices what's expressed in the Tao Te Ching and Zhuangzi without overemphasis on exercises? A place where I can go live out my life without dealing with a public that just wants some blessings or stress relief exercises while continuing to live their miserable lives? Maybe a cave or remote mountain, like the days of old? I'm in Taiwan right now. I'm willing to travel anywhere in Asia or even beyond. I don't understand the mindset of most religious Taoists here. I struggle to see the value of putting an exercise first, and adding in a bunch of other dogma from Buddhism like karma and reincarnation. In christianity you're put on a treadmill where you're supposed to go out and do good works and evangelize. Buddhism and Karma don't strike me as much different. Just another opportunity for people to lord power over others. Am I crazy?
-
@Walker Okay. The way I think if someone is telling me I should learn more about something is to at least crack open the basics and see if the system is even worthy of exerting more effort trying to learn. Just going into the basics of Buddhism I see glaring contradictions to Taoism. Looking at the 9 virtues of the Buddha, you see a glorification of knowledge, in contradiction to Laozi. "Give up learning, and put an end to your troubles." -Laozi You see a glorification of being venerable and respectable. "Accept disgrace willingly. Accept misfortune as the human condition." -Laozi https://thebuddhadhamma.wordpress.com/2017/02/11/the-nine-virtues-of-the-buddha/amp/ --- There is more pseudo-Christian drivel, but I don't owe an explanation to this forum. I've spent the last 6+ years of my life more or less friendless, always accumulating more knowledge of the world and its history and thoughts in my free time. That knowledge has done nothing for me except make me more isolated and more anxious. You sound like the people at the Tibetan Buddhist center who always said "you can always learn more". That's like the definition of living an unfulfilled life, if what you have is never enough. "Great intelligence seems stupid." -Laozi I could keep "learning" about Buddhism so I could completely demolish it for you, but I am done exerting that kind of effort. Really when you say I have more to learn you mean I don't see things the way you do and you want me to "open up" to your point of view. There are hundreds of thousands like you all around the world, all part of different religions, who would see me how you do, see me as a lost and impressionable young man and try to get me to learn more about their religion, but why would I, when they are all contradictory and all flawed in the end.
-
@Rocky Lionmouth Thanks, I listen, but can't say I entirely feel the same way that I'm comparing to Christianity too much. Walker openly lumped Taoism and Buddhism together in his response. I know Taoists generally view Buddhism as compatible with their outlook, but it's hard for me to agree. If you're bringing in theology about differing paths after death based on your performance in this life, you're going away from what I'd think Laozi expressed in his writing. Laozi wrote in an eternal way, not really creating a religion with a definite beginning, whereas without the Buddha there would be no Buddhism. But I know the negative results of going too far the other way, viewing religions as always in competition with each other. You get things like the Thirty Years War in Europe and the ongoing battles within Islam. I do feel like I'm observant of small things already, and in person I'm maybe a lot different than how I sound on here. I've been diagnosed with clinical depression and anxiety. I know I haven't arrived where I'd like to be yet.
-
@silent thunder Oh, I see now what you were talking about. I didn't connect the dots that you were talking about the ten commandments specifically, as you just said commandments. It does make more sense in that context. My progression has been almost the same. It started when I read the whole Bible, and came in stages. First I questioned the apostle Paul, then Biblical inerrancy, then the trinity doctrine, and then everything else. It's agonizing how the decisions of some people a few thousand years ago and the conversions of our ancestors have so much clout on what we are dealing with today.
-
@rideforever Don't think I don't have a vast experience dealing with churchgoers. Christianity is a glorification of suffering and we're always urged to suffer the way Jesus suffered. If you think those are the "highest values" then so be it, but I disagree.
-
@rideforever I think you give Christians too much credit or you've been around much better Christians than I have. People like Pastor Robert Jeffress, Mike Pompeo, and John Bolton have no morals whatsoever. And Mike Pence is vain and thinks he is qualified to lead just because he's a Christian and follows the letter of the law in the Bible.
-
@rideforever Please at least Google my assertions before dismissing them. 1 Corinthians 11:14–15 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. In Matthew 5, Jesus equates anger to murder.
-
Or the fact that prayer is glorified, including intercessory prayer, as if God needs to be told what to do despite being all knowing and all powerful. Praying for people does absolutely nothing.
-
@silent thunder So a sage can't be homosexual, would never offend someone, and would never undermine someone's "faith" in Jesus? Those are all Biblical commands. In my observation of Christians, those with more clout in the community will use these things to keep others under control, but they themselves are exempt from them. Or there's the fact that hard work is glorified. Who gets to define if you're a hard enough worker?
-
It is narcissism to think differently than the herd. The herd is always right. The collective always has priority over the individual. You are to be completely subservient to the collective and its appointed leaders.
-
Here's the full list of sins. Makes North Korea seem like heaven. People in parts of America take all this seriously. https://www.wogim.org/sinlist.htm
-
@pegasus1992 Have you been following U.S. politics lately? Christians operate as a tribe. Because they equate morality to something as simple as believing in something, and the fact that Biblical commands are so unreasonable that they are impossible to follow (never get angry, never lust, always obey the government, have short hair if you're a male, have fellowship with each other, evangelize even if you're a shy introvert, etc.), morality is wielded arbitrarily on people both inside and outside the herd. Because of their tribal nature, the fact that a Christian nation like America is right by God simply for "believing" enables unjust wars. Morality is arbitrarily adjusted, like homosexuality not being accepted at all, and then suddenly "just another sin". American Christians do whatever the Bible tells them to as if it's written personally to them, like circumcising male children and spanking. In Calvinism, which is popular in America, people are considered totally depraved by nature, which justifies government immigration policy (because again, those other countries are more depraved than we are), and policing mentality. Parenting mentality also incorporates this by enforcing black and white standards on obedience. You obey because we are your parents and we have authority. Because protestants tend to view all people as equal, there are no monasteries, everyone's mission is to evangelize. You're taught to pretend a personal God cares about you.
-
Thank you for all responses so far. Even walker who was a tad harsher. Taiwanese are some of the nicest people in general that I've come across in the world. A huge contrast to Korea, which I consider hell on earth. I was accused of "pride" when I started to question Christianity, so I naturally bristle at suggestions to be more humble, but I understand I may have come across a certain way. Maybe let my guard down more is a better term. I did spend some time at a Tibetan Buddhist center on the other side of the world, and the people there were some of the most anxious, unfulfilled people I've come across, especially the ones who went on and on about "mindfulness" and the importance of meditation. By meaningless in my original post I meant most cultural traditions seem to be, not necessarily everything. I was always called an old soul growing up, but since I left home and all my foundations have been crumbling I've lost that veneer and I'm only recently expressing myself more confidently, and I really am fed up with my country and my background religion. Yes, I could have been less brash in my wording.
