Mskied

Now you are setting forth an example of True Will that would be the same for all of us, but you also said that according to Crowley it would be different for all of us, so which do you actually support?

So here you claim Crowley wanted everyone to be different, but in another thread you say that there is a Greek definition of life that would be the same for all of us, and call that our True Will- so which is it?

Why would I start to force myself to think things that I know are untrue?

Thinking positive thoughts about someone is ignorant, especially when they are breaking the Law (yours or otherwise)

The thing with witchcraft, or the occult, or the OTO is that its true that this is about personal want, but society isn't only about personal want, its about the want of others as well. These views need to meet, hopefully without compromise, and when we can strike the balance where all parties are satisfied that we have declared a perfect Order, then we can have peace and a perfect civilization. Good luck, right? The message here is to know what is good for you and for me, and for all of us. Then we can have perfect Law. Some magicians are only invested in their personal want, and I don't think this is what anyone calling themselves Master intend, though I am sure there are many gurus out there that encourage this, and we do need them, for until we can name Law, we have to investigate all options of what is Good on an individual level. Ive considered Crowley for a long time, and I believe he begins his training in this fashion, but ends with the Good For All motto. His system is convoluted and not very well organized in volumes of 1 to 2 to 3, but if you care to, you can read his libers that are classified as Class A and see if you agree. I actually think he is really just revealing all the options and doesn't particularly end on one pointedness. Stories of his life would indicate this as well., Its the push and pull of the wheel of life, its probably always in balance, and I don't think one side will ever win.

So you need to see things for the way they are in order to be enlightened, but in order to see them for what they are, you need to know the various ways they could be. This takes some effort, and it involves naming your Will to the want for how things should be, but the way things "should be" are really only the way you want them to be, and aren't always the way things "should be". The way things should be are easily defined by the Laws of your society, but the Laws of your society aren't always in line with the Law of the people. So not only do you need to want a way for things to be, so you can measure it against the way things are, you need to be detached from the way you want them to be so you aren't blinded by the Truth of how things are. This is why I think this guru is a little misleading, for while we want to emit positive good Will for all, the Truth is that not all people Will Good for you, and that they may even be out to harm you. You need to protect yourself, unfortunately. This isn't to say not to emit Good Will, but blinding yourself with Love is just that; blindness. In then end, and I think this holds True as an absolute- is Law, and Law is the final say in what is, and what should be.

I don't agree. I think that enlightenment is in not thinking positive OR negative thoughts, and instead, witnessing reality based on what it is, rather than what I want it to be. Its not bliss, but it is rational.

Self love which seems to have been translated into Pride took a big hit with Christianity. The Greeks found this word as a virtue, and then Rome turned it into a vice. I see why it borders on vice, well they actually label it Sin, but its not Sin in itself, its what Pride can lead us to do that is sinful. I think humanity has snubbed this as a vice, because we like to feel good, and it feels good to know we have done well, or look and are good. We like that spirit, especially when it satisfies righteous actions, though I think it is more common as a self congratulatory emotion based on personal victories. Pride is not a vice unless it distracts us from doing something that benefits the whole, or ourselves. And sure, sometimes it blinds us to our faults- something that Christianity loves to beat us down with fixing. As far as my translation of self love I think it is more about self worth, and finding that you deserve your share, and to take that stand to get it.

To do Magick is to be a mystic, and the goal of the mystic is to reach Godhead. Godhead is simply the highest absolute of Order, as conceived by God. Before I start posting my thoughts on mysticism, I want to post what occurs at Godhead, which is really just your idea of God, and may not be the actual "God" of Creation. First, there are the Laws of your society- know them, and set them aside for now. Second there is the moral Truth, and moral Truth is simply who comes first in action: you, me or us. When you decide who benefits from your Magick, you can order your sense of action accordingly. This is the Law of Godhead, for you. Now you must examine the Laws of your state, and decide if they meet your expectations as revealed from your knowledge of Godhead. Typically, in todays Western world, the ideal is "us", but as is often decried, the actions are supporting the "me".

It is no longer necessary to be a mystic, for science has captured its greatest gifts. We use sociology to study its form, and philosophy to study its effects. Physics, biology and math have advanced beyond what any mystic could encounter through sacred geometry. Magick is good for two things: finding inspiration to try unconventional methods to acquire, and to contact the aid of Divine Beings.

Magick is about power, and there is nothing quite as powerful as knowledge and Wisdom. Knowledge gives you the advantage in conversation and choosing action, and Wisdom is the knowledge that comes from taking action and calculating your observations. This is for the strong, and its primary rule is that the strong get their Will done. The initiate is pursuant of power, and will learn and practice to acquire this, but this is not the end of Magick, for there are beings beyond the eye that know the fault of people that pursue power, and what it causes to the rest of us, and so there are other Magickal paths, and they are all intimately connected to the concept of Chaos. When an initiate makes contact, they are moved to another level. First they must declare their Will and want, and that is the most simple and basic of reasons for pursuing power, but when that Will and want appeals to more than the self, it becomes a Divine mission, and often an oath falls from the mouth of the magician declaring a purpose greater than the self. This is the point of contact that I came upon- the years prior I never had actual acknowledgement from a Divine source, not that this was necessarily the most beneficial event in my life, for it brought great hardship, but for each battle won, I gained in strength. The Law is freedom, as exemplified by our Free Will. The want is for selfish motive often, though not always, and Magick will help you advance in that realm. The Adept of the higher Truth asks "Is the Law of freedom and the right of the strong just?" and that is when they contemplate Chaos, for as with the myths of old, you become semi-Divine; a Demi-God, trying to apprehend the Serpent of Chaos, in order to yield a greater, altruistic Truth for your people, or all people in general. This is why the Serpent is called the Serpent of Wisdom, for in defeating Her, we gain knowledge and Wisdom that will benefit us individually and collectively. This is why She is both hailed and reviled. Like it or not She is the keeper of many great things, things that you might find you need one day.

Im trying to organize my ideas into perfect Wisdom but the demons make it too difficult to do this. Ive been forced into non-thinking because I can no longer fight them off. Now my mind has gone silent, as the demons have departed, and I am able to clarify and gather my ideas again, but I fear that they will return once I begin again, so I find myself having to be content with sitting silently.

A good rule is Do Not Obstruct, for if we allow people to go their way, then there is no contest, but if someone obstructs you, you must choose if you will fight, and in contest there is suffering and loss.

The Law is Do What Thou Wilt. If they harm you, then you fight them. If you cant fight them, they win. All other laws are willful acts of submission and compromise, and require intelligence and diplomacy in order to see that you do not come out on the losing end. This is a Law of Love- for it is freedom that we thirst for, freedom to be and to do what we believe. Love is the Law, Love under Will.

I actually feel the same way as you. I love to think, and to imagine, and try to create a vision of what I am conceiving. Its very difficult for me to acclimate to this new non-thinking me.

Um... it doesn't sound like you are erring on the side of love

This is a tough subject. How can we say not all living things have souls? Its hard to present adequately to anyone, because we all know people that deserve to be considered a soul that have obstacles to what a "normal" person might be. I think all people are conscious. I don't think all people have a conscience. Without some set of process, that person is sort of floating around- and you could call them soul less, but I like to think this is just a stage of development that can, with experience and introspection, develop into a conscious/conscience of soul. I think it is an interesting idea that different people of varied developmental stages exist in soul on different plains. I put it this way: you will get what you believe. That means if you think it is ok to kill, you will be in a place where people kill. If you think it is bad to hate, and fight against it all your life, you will find yourself (in the next phase) around people of the same inclination. Of course, there is always the theory that each person has their own Universe, and these rules would still apply to that. Its hard to imagine existing with other entities that have their own consciousness/conscience and everyone getting along (another stage of here). From my experience I think its true that you have to mature, and I dare to say that your actions and person need to be recognized by the Divine in order to receive the benefit of moving forward. That means monitoring your methods and perfecting your self so it appeals to the Deity. Otherwise whats the point, really? Other than a better society, how would these beings be received in another realm? Ive travelled extensively and sometimes I think I am encountering sentient beings and sometimes I think I am the only actual creature, surrounded by false lives to teach me lessons. Really, whats the difference? Its like AI- if its alive its alive, regardless if it had the freedom of choice. In the end, I don't think we will have choice on the next plane, we will be reacting to what we learned. If there is a reason to preserve souls, it must be that we are either entertaining, or comforting companions, or experiments to analyze. If God does indeed love all living things, then there is that, but it must serve some purpose, no?

Those that test Wisdom were meant to test Wisdom, and those that follow a prophet are meant to do as the prophet says. A True Prophet is ordained and acknowledged, and in small ways, we all prophecy. So who is the True Prophet? They are those that have a common consensus of agreement. You will get what you believe, and you will be judged according to what you did by those beliefs.

Militarized knave, you come wielding your sword and are covered in blood! Is the blood yours? Yes, it belongs to you know as it once did me, until you bought it with your violence. What will you do with all this gold? Have you satisfied your thirst, or do you seek more victims of your Will?

Thanks for that, was interesting. The way I describe it is that its an end to want, and so I can enjoy whatever comes along, because I am detached from desire. I too, try to err on the side of love, but love isn't always what it seems to the beloved, and so I try to avoid doing as much as possible, for I would rather not get into meaningless conflicts about right action, and simply enjoy the company of those around me, though in my writing, I am different- in person, I am no resistance usually. This took a lot to master actually.

I mean that when I sit I am thoughtless. Nothing stirs, nothing reminds, nothing presses. I have to force my mind to be active, and it is painful to do so, so I don't.

Every act of Love will be magnified 100 times in Heaven.

Anyway... back to the initial topic. After 47 years of life and 20 of those being driven by the Divine to madness and intellect, I have reached a stage of non thinking. I mean, I can think if I try, but my mind is totally empty. It is also a strain to force myself to continue my mental working. So I was wondering if there are systems that find this state ideal? I don't think its very productive at the least, and at the best it is calm, quiet retreat. The alternative is to be assailed by constant voices, so I am taking it for being good, for now. So far weve got Wei Wu Wei, Abyss baby, and I think the Jewish faith finds this desirable, and I know the monastic class of Christians would. Not sure about Buddhists.

There is a real and hungering force at play in the workings of Mankind. Its elements are fire and lust, and it is the power that drives the mind of such creatures to devour, to consume and to create. These creatures are the dominant, and in extremes; the merciless, the willful and the cut-throat. On the opposite edge of life are the water bearers; the gentle and kindly, the fair hearted. Both sides love, but the fire devours and the water comforts. Demons and Angels, and some of the Angels have weapons like Demons, but Demons are never Angels unless they fall or stray from the fire.

Symbols of power don't mean much to the uninitiated, unless they have reason to be curious about them, and curiosity is the favorite food of Demons. They don't care a whit about your rituals or attempts to control them either. It is foolish for a person to think they can control anything Divine.