Mskied

I have a friend. He emulates the trickster Gods and clown figures. I recognize that he does this out of bitterness. He thinks people are ignorant. Im in the process of trying to enlighten him that giving in to wicked action, contradicting the very virtue that you admire to prove a point i.e. cynical action, is just as evil as the evil you are trying to expose. I recently asked him how he sees people as ignorant, and Ill ask you the same question here. There is much speculation on what enlightenment is, so I will ask too, what is enlightenment, as well as what is ignorance?

Well this is an interesting idea. I used to be a trickster type as well- often pulling people out of their "illusions"- I mastered the art of turning the mind to see something new, and as you said, there is always something new to see, as we are all somewhat ignorant. I did this because I had an objective that I didn't think was ignorant, and it seems to be the same one he has- we both wanted loving kindness to prevail. I realized eventually that I was ignorant and stopped tricking people into seeing my way, and started to work with their way and showed my version of life in unison with theirs. This worked well for me- for I wanted love, as does he- but for him, he is not finding it, where once I started to be transparent, I found plenty. I was still ignorant though, because what I thought was love was also a weakness on my end- I was too kind; I should have been more firm in certain things. That is why, I believe, I was initiated by the God into the Jewish mystical path- because they have a firmness, whereas mine was more Christian based. Christianity is a wise tradition, for they know the ignorance and error we are prone to, but it too has a flaw- we have to hold people accountable at certain times, and that is when I realized that forgiveness should be granted when it is earned. Now, you can say that there is no error, that all things are allowed and that the only one that sees the mistake is me- and that may be true, but I still see it, and if it isn't reconciled with my Will, then I will harbor resentment. Life should be lived on my terms as well as theirs, and so if I need an apology, I should wait for it. It is this way because I have my own measure of kindness, and I want to love kind people, and if I am not around kind people in my life, I will withhold my love. I may still be ignorant, but it is my Will and my life, and I should choose. I am more than willing to compromise as well, and admit folly and fault easily. In relationships, this is a blessed state- where both parties see that there is error- and it matters less that we are all ignorant, and more that we both see it. There may never be honest enlightenment, but life is better when both can agree, or agree that we do not know. Playing the trickster gives the upper hand, and some people don't mind, but it is not self effacing always. I found it is better to be frank when discussing feelings, for deception and game play only confuse the mind, and often, it is my mind that gets confused. Kind of like cynicism leading to sincerity and gentleness- it is a cold and skeptical method to be gentle and warm, so why not just be gentle and warm?

Nungali I apologize for naming the star when I have little knowledge of what they consider it. I should have just said acute heptagram. Otherwise it sounds like we are on the same page. It was indeed a personal initiation, not exactly begun by me, but pursued by me after it was revealed. I didn't have the time to study, it was seat of the pants, and it has taken 20 years to put these pants back on. I agree that there is a general process to it, and it has taken a long time to reach that point, as the particular, based on my naivete and ignorance, had to be examined first. Now that I am at the plateau, it doesn't hold much mystery, but that is because I still have yet to bend to a particular method. I have really only learned a small amount in 20 years, but about myself? I have examined it all, and I found some interesting general tidbits, as well as particular choices I made, and am well aware of our ignorant condition (mine probably a little more so than the average). In the end Id say that I actually fall into the Jewish mystical tradition. The visions and idea I began with were heavily Jewish. Im no biblical scholar, but what I did carry, and what is laid out in genesis, follows along with the process I underwent. As I said earlier, it seems that righteousness is something of a fallacy, though it is one that we will champion because the alternative is horrific to the weak and the kind. Steve, I am in agreement with you. A spiritual path should enlighten you about who you are and why you are, and what you will be and do.

Im a middle pillar, so I have two. Do What Thou Wilt Love is the Law

I agree that my two cents isn't the most powerful pennies in the jar, but that isn't the point of my protest. If we allowed the "movers and shakers" to make the rules, you can bet that those rules would include killing us when it suits them. My point is that, as a whole- a species, a unified voice of enlightened people- enlightened as to what is Good- we all deserve to speak. It seems like that is just a fairy tale.... that there is no "Good" and Truth no longer has a capital T, as was said. I guess its a personal choice, and may God have mercy on whoever picks poorly.

Angels have swords.

That is my question too. If we say that what is right is based on societies interpretation of what needs to be done, then we accept that as a community, we all have a voice in what is happening. If there is no absolute moral truth that stems from enlightenment, then it varies depending upon other things, like amount of resources, or public opinion. In a community all parts rely upon one another, so how much say do I have on what goes on? With taxes, this is my money too, and with liberty, some actions have consequences that drain on our taxes. It is not just about wronging someones personal property, its about wronging the coffers of society. We seem to allow certain things taking place at upper levels of production and technology while the common person has less freedom. Certainly there should be a standard for this type of thought; uniform truth for uniform law- logic based on enlightened concepts of what is right. For instance, I have no right to say what you should not do, but the Law does- and the Law is based on what is right to protect the rights of others, and yet when it comes to my tax dollars- which I pay to care for public works, and now health care- it is something I co-operate with because I take advantage of it too. Do you think the time will come in the future that certain behaviors which are unhealthy will not be paid for with tax dollars? Right now drug addiction- and the drugs are illegal, is being paid for by tax dollars- is this right? If they are caught doing the drug they go to jail but if they fall ill from doing it we pay? That doesn't make sense. There is also the problem with my labor and the price of your goods. I have little choice in how much you pay me, and I have little choice in what you charge for your goods. In a community that decides right and wrong, a community that should recognize that we are a united people that rely upon one another to create a working whole- shouldn't all parts be covered in consideration? They say that if we don't like the price, we don't have to buy, but the way our wage system is set up, we increase the wealth to certain positions so that they can afford the price of the object while the lower class has no access to those goods. They obviously expect to sell X amount of the good at XXX price, a price that is affordable by the wealthy alone- so they factor in how many wealthy people need to buy it at XXX rather than pricing it at XX to sell more to the lower class too. The lower class are being ignored, essentially- and this is the labor force on whose back all of this relies upon. With public health care, the lower class has no way of paying for the escalating costs. On services that we all need to survive, we should have some sort of % control over the profit from said service. Shouldn't we all have some say in this? The alternative, of course, is that there is no moral truth, and that anything I want and can get away with- whether by law or not, is allowable- and I fear that this is the truth from top to bottom to some degree. So where is enlightenment, and what is it good for exactly? It seems to be loose rules for the people that are willing to follow rules obey, and the rest of them get away with what they like. There is no justice, really, except when certain powers captivate the masses and stir their emotions to prosecute people in power. So, is enlightenment even necessary? Does it really "exist" or is the enlightened mind the one that knows the rules, and how to break them. getting away with whatever they can when they can? I fear for our species and our people, because when the day comes that the less educated and less important lower class are no longer needed, there will be genocide. Right now we are a pool- we are a resource, and we provide consumption and labor, but when the need for those positions are absent so too will the need for the lower class. The lower class already is disposable, but what happens when we no longer need them to produce with their labor? Is enlightenment really peace and security, or is it spawned by vicious predators that will one day execute the less deserving?

Well that's just the thing, I named it what someone else named it because that is what can be found popularly. If I named it based on what it was for me, no one would know what Im talking about. Sure, what it means to me and the names of what it meant to the author that had experience with it will be different, I actually have had little luck finding those explanations so I really cant speak about what it is to those authors, only to me, and for me, it was a key to other worlds and spirits. Ive posted some of my experiences here elsewhere. I really cant coincide what Ive seen with what has been written, and I get the impression that most people that have used a system based off of the actual use of it don't actually have first hand experience with what it physically and psychicly did to me. I gather its like anything: a symbol that has been granted meaning based on the research by the author- and really, that doesn't have to be similar from one case to the next. Its like any identified symbol in nature- the actual meaning will vary based on the authors experience. Since my experience with it has been very hellish, and I haven't read anyone talk about the psychic Hell that happens when something like this is used, I assume they are just imitating other authors explanations, who may not have had similar experiences. Im curious to hear your explanations, and would ask to point me to some resources about it, as I said I have little real writing on the subject.

It does seem more and more that defeating someones arguments is difficult in our world. That is because, at least in America, liberty is the central theme, and so there is much that has to be allowed. One thing about concepts is that there are factors involved in society that can help you win these arguments. Take for instance taxes and social programs that aid people of low income. If you are paying for my health care, should you not have a say in some of my health care choices, especially the ones that raise the cost of things, such as smoking? Sure, we don't absolutely know who will get cancer and why, but there is strong evidence of other diseases that are caused by smoking. If someone else is having to pay for my treatment, shouldn't we prevent the choices that create the disease? This isn't how things run, but maybe they should? As I keep saying, it all depends on the views and structure of the society you live in, and whether you can change it. Do you think that eventually we will allow anything? In the past 100 years, so many things have been opened to people that were frowned on if not outright unlawful. How far should we go with this? Where do we stop? Should we stop? Who is to say what should or should not be done? Is it enlightened to do this, or ignorant?

If this is referencing my ambiguity of the use of the key of the faery star, trust me, you don't want to know how it works. Mind expanding, that's all I can say. That, and inner worlds. Its a key to a door, and works that way. A door you want to enter? That remains to be seen. You can say all kinds of things about whats inside and what its like to be there, but the only thing that counts is what you bring when you come back out.

And as far as "men of infinity" just their name betrays their flaw- what they speak of is Eternity, not infinity- for infinity is something that is endless, and while eternity is endless, the infinite is such because it is ever changing, not because it is static, for infinity is the idea of no end, where if it were Eternal, then it holds its place. What they speak of is Eternal now, not infinite movement of idea.

What is a delusion? It is something that is not how you imagine it to be, or is not real altogether. Sometimes real things are unknown, and so we are prone to wondering about them, and what is- which we cannot perceive as is. So enlightenment is twofold: discovering what is unknown and clarifying it, and seeing what is known for what it truly is, so as to know it. When it comes to knowing what is, there is the material reality and the spiritual reality. The spiritual reality relies heavily upon other people, and what they think is. To know what they think is, and to know what you think is, and to clarify what it actually is, is not easy, because what "is" can also be defined by what should be. When it comes to a cut, what is, is that someone cut you- should they have? The cut "is", but how did it happen? If you cut yourself, you should know why, but if someone else did the cutting, you might not know, and you might not know if it was justified. If it was an accident of material, then it is simple enough to know "This paper edge raced across my finger too quickly and cut me". The first video by "Men of infinity" is about the now- the material now- and not the spiritual now- but the two videos play head games about knowing the now, like its a puzzle. This is addressed by the Greeks, to know the now. It was well defined by Plato and Aristotle- the world of forms and what "is". Morality and the actions of the now by living things is harder, and to be enlightened about cause is difficult, as is deciding if that cause is something you agree with, for if you do not, you should want to take contest with it. If you ignore these factors waiting for them to "dissipate" they might, but then so might whatever the action was that you pretend doesn't exist will take away your home, your food or your life. You cannot pretend that something is not, for all things are- and should you ignore, and yes, you are ignoring it- waiting for it to dissipate, then you are at the mercy of someone elses power over the result of action, and this is not enlightenment, it is learned helplessness. Some things will indeed recede, but the result of the choice and action remains. Its like this: you are a slave, and your slave master is angry, and he beats you in anger for something you have done (whether you should or should not have is up to him to decide as your master) so he is angry and vents his anger in beating you. You can sit and allow this, and take the punishment until his anger fades or "dissipates" and then things go back to normal, but if you haven't rectified why you got beat and taken action to see that it does not happen again, it will happen again. Magick is about taking control of your actions. It is about learning why other people take action. It is about controlling the actions to secure a just or welcome outcome for the magician. Were we all magicians, we would find ourselves discussing on action that we all agree with, but not all magicians want to play fairly, and so we have some that do unjust deeds, hide it, and get away with what we normally would not agree with. This takes diligence; to know what is good and right for yourself, and beyond that: for all people. This is the righteous persons challenge, and it takes place daily in public all over the place. If you simply wait it out for it to "dissipate" you will be missing out on your act of choice to influence the outcome of the debate, and will have to accept what comes. Enlightenment is about knowing the now, and knowing what the now should be in light of what is right- and what is right is open to debate depending on your society, but I think it can go deeper, should you have a truly moralistic understanding of Nature, and the nature of Nature, and the things that matter- such as existence.

It depends on your society mostly, though society can be changed by those that feel they are oppressed. It also depends on personal choice of faith in Truth. Anyone can feel oppressed and call someone ignorant. Anyone can claim to be enlightened and call someone ignorant. I have my own use for those terms, but I recognize that so does everyone. Where do I draw the line to take action to address ignorance or oppression? I don't really, but then, I live in America and don't stray too far- so I don't have to. Unfortunately laws are just laws until they aren't, and then we all reckon with the consequences. Id be a hypocrite to declare any, but I don't blame anyone that does. Should we? Yes. Do I know where to draw that line? Havent done enough thinking on that. You would say that an enlightened person would know an ignorant person, and know when that ignorant person is oppressing them- and this is true, but to name it on an absolute level? Im afraid to- because I think we have and will always utterly fail the goal. In failing the goal, however, we draw out new things that help us move technology and industry forward, so its a trade off. As always, one door closes and another opens. Lets just hope we don't open the door to Hell.

Tell that to the villain with the weapon that harms your life choices as they oppress you, or move against you, or inflict pain on you, or prevent you from maturity, or harm those you love. Not all things "dissipate"

Ive been fortunate, and unfortunate, in that I have been able to keep my mind clean, except that I have listened to nearly 4 decades of music, as much as I can, and have contemplated their lyrics and rhythm to seek truth. I didn't read much as an adult, and learned only minimal things in school. Mostly a free spirit, I have been allowed to spend my time musing about the invisible nature of force and the impetus to love and be kind. I naturally fell into the sphere of Chesed early. I guess I took for granted that I had a clean mind, and was able to do pretty much whatever I chose as I chose to do things- not very inhibited but not completely lawless. I was handed over to Thelema after initiation into Kabbalah (much to my dismay) and have spent 20 years fighting for sanity. I recognize that there is the LHP and the RHP- it is the easiest and most convenient analogy for working with Law and Will. The left is lawless- total lawless and willful beings. The right is the lawful and willed, and for that, you have every reason imaginable to proclaim your truth and attain your Will. It depends what you believe is Good. Go to the far right, and you find certain religious Truth, and the laws and rules of the prophets from those places. The key is to know your law, and to know what you will allow, and to know those that disagree with your law or work in ways that you would think is lawless. The Jewish faith warns about this very well, especially Christianity. There is symbolism, and the forms of religious and philosophical truth that comes from the real truth behind the symbol, and its been my duty to sort through the history of these things to assert my truth, in the hopes of aiding the world. Hard task. Im sure most serious students are aware that spiritual discipline is a life choice, and its not easily handled when we have to do other things in life. It is however rewarding. It requires great diligence to know, and to know not, and to know of others and to know your own- and to know how to defend against the others, and how to eloquently communicate and interact with people of opposing views. In our age, this is a monumental task. I began life just wanting to run, and now I am being forced to sit still. I am looking forward to the future to see what new journey is ahead.

also, some things will not just dissipate because you ignore them

That's not true. You fight something to defeat it, and when it is dead, you are free. You can live in delusion, and in a lot of ways, people do this all the time in healthy methods. It depends on your culture and what is acceptable or expected. What is your Law? That is how you start with what is delusion. There are other realms of delusion, which some call genius, which may or may not yield truth. We certainly do not understand the whole of manifest material reality, and spiritual truth seems to be elusive- so some delusions are necessary to pierce the heart of the invisible. But still, we want to "know" and not be deluded, for we want to interact with the now- which is only just "is", and yet... it is more than being, it is action, and those actions are being played out by people of Will, and what is their Will? Are they delusional? Should I wade through their fantasy for the sake of interaction? Why would I, other than experience, or to accomplish a task. And what task needs to be done? Survival. So delusion is that which detracts from our survival, and now you can proceed to making and stating Laws, which will provide you with naming the non ignorant needs of the managing of the now.

I don't like these definitions though they are not far from what I consider to be enlightenment. The key here isn't "living in the now" it is in the act of fighting delusion- and to do that we have to name the now, for the now is simply time moving, but to be enlightened ie, to know, is to know what is now, and none of these two videos tell us what that is, only what it feels like to be there.

In this Age, the world is surrounded by opinion- art, music, litterature, television, movies, conversation- more than ever in history has the world been surrounded with so much information, and yet... it is all opinion; even the enlightened Masters, for they cannot proclaim certainty, only confidence in the slivers of Truth that we possess, and yes, we possess Truth, for it is all True to some degree. We take in a lifetimes worth of opinion without processing what we hear, and so my advice is to take the pieces you possess and work them out like a carpenter, or a painter, or a sculptor- and see what we can form from it, and what the mass of material contains inside, for all of what is can lead to God, because God is All that Is.

I am a fundamentalist Occultist, and I struggled with Truth for a long time. My friends would say "There is no Truth" and I finally realized, after contemplating Chaos for 15 years or more, that there is Truth- it is all True. This was a huge mountain for me, to recognize what Hobbes pointed out about morality- that each person establishes it on their own based on their subjective realities. That is true, but then I kept looking, because that didn't satisfy me. I started as a Christian, and I moved onto the LHP (or was moved, rather), and I was inundated with concepts about self, self awareness, and selfish patterns of action. The voices in my head asked why I wanted to be in the "cult of the self" and I had no answer (as I said, I was put here). I spent my 20s practicing self actualization but came up with a benevolent method of interpreting the world because I saw that this was the only answer to all the various bias of the world. Still, this was not enough Truth for me, and so I sought hard, got the call from the Gods, and went forward- hence my being put on the LHP. Anyway, I conquered Chaos and kept digging. I moved from the LHP to the RHP when I realized that this is a community of people, that rely on one another for reproduction and survival, and that, as a fundamentalist; this was objectively true. It doesn't take long to re-establish a moral code after that. One man and one woman come together to raise a vulnerable infant, and when that infant is raised, they do the same- this is the objective Truth- and are all vulnerable still, even as grown people. The elemental journey I took taught me a lot about cosmic Truth as well, and the contemplation of fire really taught me about the variety of Truth that lead people away from my objective Truth. I believe this idea of fire is also objectively True- and it combats with the former objective Truth that I stated, so both are True, and we struggle with this juggling act, which I think is very well defined by the two sides of the body and the LHP and RHP perspective. Objectively, time moves, the Universe moves, human beings move- and things birth, rise and die. There may or may not be anything more for us after breathing the air is over, but while we are here, we have to co-operate with one another.

Thanks for the reply. My journey is sort of tragic. Some God wanted to get their point across- that this stuff works in ways that I was ignorant of. I don't have a practice. I wish I could, but the Qliphot have taken over my ability to alter my consciousness on my own, so I am at their mercy what I feel. Ive fought for my knowledge though, and now (lately) they have backed off. Many trips, many, many trips to the hospital later, and I look around and recognize that everyone wants to be a guru. What are we trying to discover, I wonder? What is each persons personal goal for their lives? So many questions need to be answered, in my opinion, before choosing a master or a system. I actually feel blessed, because I never had one. Cursed, because now that I am free, I see a lot of ignorance, and confusion, and suffering, and personal isolation.

Im sorry. Your questions combine into something I have to laugh at.

Sorry, I didn't read this post, but I have words about enlightenment. Enlightenment is when you understand. What is there to understand? Everything. Do you need to understand everything to consider yourself enlightened? I don't know, do you? Some people that can only add 1 to 10 could be called enlightened. It depends on your point of view. In America we have a way- capitalism and liberty- and to be enlightened about America, one needs to understand these ideas and what they produce. Christ has another way, and to understand Christianity you need to see and know it for yourself. Every "system" has a method, and a thesis, and in my opinion all systems start with the four elements. Sprinkle in some Kabalah, a dash of hope for what things "should" be, and the way things around you "are" (capitalism and freedom) and you can be enlightened. In this age theres a lot going on, and the more familiar you are with the systems around, the more you can consider yourself to be enlightened. When you talk to a Moslem, you want to know what they believe. Same thing with a Thelemite, and a Taoist, and a regular laboring Joe. You also want your own view. It could be considered enlightened not to have a view- and to work with the views of the people around you. That fits with America, because theres so many beliefs, and we are all allowed to have them. Some say that to have a belief is ignorance, especially when it comes to how you view others. It depends what you want, peace? Diplomacy? Sovereignty? Like I said, I found enlightenment when I discovered elemental magic, and then I found something else: infinity. I don't prescribe to a system, and I don't think God does either. Though I do believe there is a shape and movement to things, when it comes to spirituality, I don't think anything can be considered the bible. One more thing: there are unseen powers and forces of things that we do not yet know, and so there is much to understand about the invisible Universe, but good luck figuring all that out, because the ones that control it are tight lipped.

Its a key. There are a few things that I am aware of that go into the portal grade, and this is one of them. What does it mean? That depends what you bring, and what you seek. The Abyss is different for everyone, though it can be similar depending on system. If no system, then ones own. This is an inner key, not much more to say about it. You either know how it works or you don't.

What is there to say?