-_sometimes

Honestly for me this has felt like a breath of fresh air. I feel like much of the spiritual things you see out there are quite neurotic, and can build what I now see as an unhealthy obsession with some 'ideal state/place/no state'. The idea of no self, no progress, etc can be quite stressful if you're not 'there', and if you're more neurotically inclined, it really can emphasise that side of you. When you look at daoism and discover that it starts all at the body, getting in touch with yourself, building profound physical and mental health, and then building on that - the fact that daoism doesn't even place much emphasis on seeing your true nature as the ultimate end, that really it's just the start, not pushing away the idea of training and development, it's a quite a relief I heard Damo Mitchell saying in an interview how the most harmful advice he received was about no self, and that it tainted the way he saw things for long time, and I kind of agree. How can you possibly expect to get anywhere when, the vast majority of the time, you don't even know you have a body?? Not quite on topic I know, but I remember being very much into zen, with the no development, you are already there mindset, and honestly it just hurt my brain and gave me headaches lol

What leads you to think this way? Do you consider the spiritual path to be amoral? Not sure if 'amoral' is the right phrase, but you don't consider movement towards spiritual development to be superior to other ways of being? So that movement in either direction - towards spirituality or away from it, or perhaps not in any particular direction, doesn't really matter?

So, if your ability to pay attention is hardly existent, could it be better to use intention to at least have something to work with, and then slowly peel back the layers to leave attention remaining? That’s what Damo calls ‘intention’. For example, I find if i actively try to drop this intention, I spend more time on attention vs intention than actually being aware at all of some part of the body. Is better to maintain awareness of the body at all times regardless of the quality of that awareness, and let go of intention as much as you are able without dropping the object of attention itself? Should the focus first and foremost be on the body? This was harder than Damo's approach because there is a strong likelihood of losing oneself in thoughts because there isn't really anything to 'hold onto'? Thank you I will! I feel a little more in touch with myself and some of my tension forming behaviour already, I don't plan on stopping

His free mco course. Just the first exercise, anchoring the breath. I intend to follow through the entire course, which should result in a functioning lower dantian and active microcosmic orbit - if this actually happens, then I will definitely sign up for his course, but I feel like right now the MCO course is more than enough to last several years of practice

I guess it's based on whether you view things that hinder spiritual development to be a negative. If you're spending much of your time playing videos games, because you find them so amazing compared to real life, or because your life sucks and you want an escape - not being able to play them would likely force you to deal with your stuff, because not having an escape means you have to live with yourself. And living with yourself if you're a mess can be so painful you have no choice but to improve. I feel like providing people with yet another reason for not being present with themselves, is not really the most ethical thing to do. Video games keep getting more beautiful, awe inspiring, absolutely stunning. It makes distraction seem all the more compelling, even to those not predisposed to such endeavours. That being said, I've only ever played games solo, perhaps the social dynamic makes for a completely different experience, as@silent thunderyou attest to.

Also, it's really really hard for me to maintain attention on multiple parts of the body at once, I can't quite figure out how to place attention across multiple areas at once, so I end up just skipping through attention of the different areas unable to hold attention of the entire thing together. Does anyone have any tips in this respect?

Thank you so much for posting, it's great to hear how far you've gone. I'm very happy for you I wonder what you mean by this, I would be happy to learn more about no Netflix/TV as well, was there a specific reason?

I work a few days a week in a physical, labour-intensive role, that doesn't require much thought. I currently have a dedicated practice of anchoring the breath as per damo mitchell's intro the microcosmic orbit, which I expect will take a lengthy time to develop in order to move onto the next stage. I want to develop my mind in a way that can assist in this progression, and as I have much mental time on my hands whilst working, I would like to do something during this time. I've tried different kinds of mindfulness, such as awareness of the body involved in the breathing process, what breathing feels like, resting my attention on/in the body, etc., but I'm not really getting much from it, I think because I have little faith in their ability to get me anywhere, so I don't really feel confident in giving it my all. I would like to still my mind - although not through repression - into a calm, relaxed state of awareness, that can be useful in daoist practices. I can't focus 100% because I still need to maintain active awareness of my surroundings. To give a little more context as to my default mental inclinations, if that may help with suggestions, I have a tendency to adopt negative over positive thought patterns, and my mind tends to gravitate towards dullness and forgetfulness - by forgetfulness I mean periods where I have little self awareness, will snap out of it, and wonder where I just went. I appreciate any input, many thanks!

I find candle gazing to be helpful in calming my mind and bringing some attention to the process of perceiving. I'm not quite sure the role this sort of meditation has in daoism, so this sort of perspective is more than welcome. As for fire kasina, I've heard some crazy things from those or who have practiced extended periods, warnings of psychosis, hallucinations (or not?) during retreats, seeing closed eye visuals even outside of practice.

Can you recommend a translation of the Dao De Jing that most closely embodies a description of xin zhai? Thank you

Would you be willing to share some examples of those signs?

According to my understanding, Jing is dense, but not dense enough to be physical. Neither blood nor semen are Jing, I don't know about women, but the issue with semen is not the semen in itself, it's the energy required to ejaculate. Excess of anything 'contrived' causes leakage of Jing; feeling lustful, ejaculation, intense emotions, a scattered mind, excess thought, worry, fear, poor diet, poor quality sleep, excess consumption, lots of distraction. I have read that cutting off leakage of Jing is impossible, you can only conserve it. I don't know about congenital Jing though

Can virtue according to daoism be a way to enlightenment? Not making life about oneself, acting mindfully in all ways, dissolving aversion and distaste towards all that one encounters, could this lead to a developing of Shen (in a stable integrated fashion that doesn't break the system) without going through the alchemical process? Or at least assist in the movement towards moving out of samsara in this life? I would be very happy for some discussion around this. I am fairly young (20s), and have very little time to dedicate to practice, as I am building a career, study in my spare time, have people I care about who I wish to spend time with, exercise so I don't end up stagnant, etc. and this all takes up a great deal of time, where half an hour even of dedicated practice a day can be very difficult. In 10 years I will have time for 2 hours a day maybe, but I hear even that is very little if one wishes to really make strides in one lifetime, and not only that, but I could die before then, and likely that death will be confused and uncertain, very much adrift. I feel very mournful about this, I wish to develop spiritually and make meaningful progress, but I have too much doubt to drop my future for what I only see now as a potential. So in a similar vein - perhaps there are alternate ways - can a layman ultimately develop their Shen, to a significant, ideally irreversible, level, without specifically dedicating large amounts of time to quiet sitting?

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I am grateful for your input! I tend to stay too long in bed after waking up, not really feeling the energy to get out.. now that you've mentioned this, I have more reason to avoid doing so, especially since I do have some trouble with sluggishness, so thanks!

I know this is an old thread, but it popped up during a search and I find this curious. Why is this particular activity good for less drainage of one's Jing? If you're waking up at regular times, why should that matter?

I do wonder what the end goal to daoism actually is. I was reading white moon on the mountain peak by Damo Mitchell, and it seems, at least according to him, that even becoming a heavenly immortal doesn't necessarily mean that the path is over, the end has been reached, we just don't know what comes next, I assume because there has been no teaching beyond that point.

if you don't mind the question, how would you personally describe true virtue?

Quoting from damo Mitchell's work: I will read further.. but, it seems, at least according to Damo Mitchell, that conduct can definitely play an important role

That would highly depend on the motive, I would imagine?

Although you ask this for me to ask myself, I can tell you somewhat. I'm not looking for special abilities to traverse a multitude of dimensions.. this mind is what I can best describe as very confused, uncertain, and with no apparent foothold or certainty in things. If I were to be placed in solitary confinement I would likely lose my sanity, and I ask myself what is the use of sanity with conditions. Under certain conditions, I could completely dissolve into something that could hardly be called a free being, completely bound by concepts that have no basis in reality, but completely delude me. Ultimately, I wish to be so certain of things, that the fabric of reality tearing apart in front of me would not cause a complete psychical breakdown. I understand that spirituality is not about escaping, this is aversion, and clearly not the way. I am not wanting to escape my life, I am willing to undergo much suffering and I understand it as part of the process, the suffering is not what I am averse to, it is the uncertainty of my existence, the not knowing, the fact that deep down I don't know what is up and what is down, what is truly appropriate and what isn't. I operate based on what appears to be a set of deeply layered views, which seem to ultimately stand on absolutely nothing. I continue to operate on these views because the alternative would be to sit down, cease all such actions based on these views, and perhaps this will allow some form of higher truth to emerge; for genuine, non-contrived action to arise. But the sacrifice required for something so uncertain as 'higher order truth' is not something I am willing to make at this point. I believe I should first settle my affairs, develop financial stability, and then perhaps, 15-20 years from now, be able to ask these fundamental questions, and if nothing comes of it, so be it, I would return to a world I have built, nothing so bad there. But as I mentioned earlier, I could die before this, and I can't feel happy with myself just letting time pass, leaving open the opportunity to lose myself in the fun of self-indulgence, no longer caring for this when I do have the ability, and eventually, when the time to pass comes, realise the mistake I have made, but of course, too late. This is why I ask about virtue. I want to know what I can do in the meantime, how I can leave myself open to change from the outside, grace or whatever that may be, so that even if I cannot have a dedicated practice, I am nonetheless open to the arising of wisdom, and so that, as time passes, I develop in a genuine way, not building more delusion, but lessening it.

How does it help build this foundation?

I'm not entirely sure what I mean by virtue, but by enlightenment I mean the full blown, whole thing, a la celestial immortal, Buddha, the furthest reach of the spirit. By Shen I mean the end goal of qigong - the Shen 'layer' has been reached, a solid foundation has been built, allowing for actual spiritual development, neidan I believe is this process after this that would traditionally work on Shen in daoist circles?

I've realised an issue with that, mainly being, if you're cultivating virtue to be enlightened, or 'saved' from samsara or whatever, it's not really virtue is it. More like desire masquerading as goodness. In the event that virtue can lead to development of the spirit, or towards the ultimate perhaps, would choosing to cultivate it, eventually purify the mind from the above?

If ya'll don't mind the off-topic, just popping in to say this thread is positively fascinating, and one of the reasons I love to lurk this forum. Many little gems if you look long enough. Thank you all for contributing as you do