Cloudwalking Owl

The only time my teacher actually gave a formal talk (through horrible Cantonese to English translation) he mentioned that one of the big problems with people getting ahead in their learning because they told themselves "Oh, I couldn't do that!" or "I can't do it". I'd suggest that you probably do do things like what I'm describing already. But you might not do them very often, or, on command. Let me illustrate with a practical example. Once I was in my taijiquan club fooling around with a blunt, aluminum practice sabre. I noticed an 8.5 x 11 inch poster on the bulletin board promoting a cult, which annoyed me. I instantly stabbed it, flicked up the point, and, threw the poster into the air. Then I instantly did a move from the sabre form, which neatly sliced the paper in half, leaving both pieces to lazily fall to the floor. (I looked around the room and saw two beginner students with open jaws and bugged-out eyes. At that point the test for me was whether I would act groovy and mysterious---or be frank and honest towards them. It was an ego battle!) I could never do that move again if my life depended on it. It was just one of those bizarre moments when "everything clicks". I think everyone has those once in a while. But the issue isn't that anyone is groovy to have these experiences, it's that they do exist. The experience should inform the way you look at the world. As my teacher would say "You can do it! The question is whether or not you believe you can do it, and, whether you can put the time and energy into doing more often." I'd suggest that understanding that these things happen and how common they really are is an important step in being able to do them more often.

Thank you for the correction!

I am of the opinion that a lot of the language of energetics are metaphors or inarticulate attempts to get to something that people have an intimation about, but not haven't quite got a "handle on". I have a notion that it's important to realize that most Daoist teaching books are "evocative" more than "descriptive". A lot of our ordinary life has been explained since the time of the ancients, so I think it's important to try and distinguish what was a profound mystery to them but which are explained by modern science. But having said that, a lot of modern life is still mysterious---either because lay people don't have a handle on the modern knowledge, or, because no one really knows. Jumping to the conclusion that this is evidence of some mysterious energy is like the "God of the gaps" fallacy when a believer explains whatever science cannot currently explain as being evidence of God's intervention in human life. To answer your specific question. I instantly know how to type what I want (I touch type about 100 words per minute) without any thought. That isn't evidence of special groovy energy---it's an artifact of being taught how to type in high school and then spending most of my life writing either as a student or a journalist. But having said that, it is evidence of the Daoist principle that "Being comes from Nothing". We are programmed to see the world as being contingent---things only happen because something causes them. But that's not how we experience life----we just act! But having said that, we can change how we act by pursuing specific kung fus----like typing, like taijiquan or any other kung fu---such as cutting up oxen, swimming, shooting a bow, building a bell stand, or, any of the other examples that the Zhuangzi discusses.

At risk of annoying, I might suggest that this makes sense. Someone once told me that the essence of "Mastery" of a subject is being able to learn how to apply basic principles to novel situations. For example, a novice taijiquan player knows the moves of the set, but doesn't know how to apply them instantly in a fight. A "Master" at taijiquan is someone who is able to know instantly which move to use and how to apply it in a way that actually works. The general principles of Daoism are just like taijiquan moves. You have to instantly know how to apply them and how to do it "just right". In contrast, other stuff like discussing meditation, energetics, theory, etc, are much easier. It's like the difference between doing a taijiquan "forms" and doing live push-hands or sparring. And just like in all the taiji clubs I've been involved with, people who don't "get" live push hands, just come up with excuses to not even try.

I understand the point you are making, but at least saying "I don't want to be provocative" offers a bit of a fig leaf. And wanting to put it on, does imply that I am at least aware of the problem of civility. Having said that, I don't want to get into a pointless argument between myself and a lot of people who have made up their minds (like I have), simply because I just don't want to talk about the subject at all. But if I didn't raise the issue at all, it might be construed as meaning that I do believe in a lot of "woooo", which I would think of as being both cowardly, and, not serving to help people new to Daoism. Consider it a banner raised to point out to "newbies" that you can be a Daoist and be skeptical about the existence of Qi and other energetics. I know it's not a popular view, but I think it is a legitimate one. And that has bearing on the idea of seeing Daoism as a practical philosophy, because a lot of folks only see it as being with regard to other stuff---like energetics.

This is an interesting question. I've seen a few Tibetan Buddhist ceremonies and I have been struck by a sort of similarity between them and what Daoist ceremonies I've participated in. I have wondered if there were similar roots between Bon and Chinese shamanism and that they created these similarities. If I sound a bit defensive about this stuff, I've had on-line discussions with people (usually anonymous, so I couldn't figure out who they were and what culture they come from) who seem outraged by my background and obviously think I'm a liar. Oddly enough, once a young fellow did this and sheepishly apologized on-line a few weeks later because his Daoist teacher knew about me (how, I haven't a clue) and told the kid that I was "the real deal" and ordered him to say he was sorry.

I'm just quoting the academic who used the term "ordination". People get hung up on words that get translated into other words that I think don't exactly mean the same thing. The phrase "lay ordination" actually contradicts itself in English, so I don't know what it means. Some folks have suggested that what happened was that I was made a "janitor" in the Temple---which just seems like a way of saying "I don't like you---so I'm going to insult you". As for the "monk" thing, well, again I don't think that that is exactly a good translation either. From what I've learned over the years there is some variation between different sects of Daoists. I have heard that there used to be a tradition---in at least some sects---of creating a name using a lineage poem that allows someone "in the know" to be able to quickly figure out who has greater seniority. I found out that this wasn't continued by the Yuen-Yuen Institute in Hong Kong (where the teachers came from) because there was such a mish-mash of different sects and lineages there because of people fleeing the persecution in Mainland China. There is also a problem with the present govt's policy of forcing all Daoshis to identify with the two major schools of Orthodox and Complete Reality. I would say that functionally what I went through was simply being entered into a lineage or becoming a "Daoishi". The Temple I was involved with recognized three levels of Daoshis---I know that because they posted an advertisement in the "Globe and Mail" asking for---I think, but memory can be a weak reed to lean upon---a "3rd level Daoshi" in order to fulfill some bureaucratic rule in order to help the meditation teacher from Hong Kong immigrate. Please note, I said that the ceremony involved being entered into a lineage----not becoming a lineage holder. (Some folks who insist on being angry with me confuse these two things and seem to think that I'm setting myself out to be a groovy, shoots lightning bolts out my ass, "Master", which I do not.) I went through this experience. I have described it. The translation was absolutely abysmal and I had no real idea what was going on. The academic made a statement, which I have passed on. I've done some looking around on my own, and passed on some bits and pieces I've learned. I left that Temple a year or so after the event, simply because I didn't really like some of the stuff that went on there. Since then I've practiced pretty much as a "hermit" (which I've come to understand doesn't mean living in a cave away from humanity---it's about not being involved in an ecclesiastic organization.) Would it be possible to explain what you were thinking about in particular when you asked the original question?

The earth is dying and rich people talk about buying expensive toys that destroy Mother Nature. "Daoism"?----I think not.

That is actually a real qigong practice. It's about letting the qi tell you how to move. I've seen a couple of Masters doing it. Sounds like you had a bit of an "experience". They are fairly common, but rarely talked about because it is so easy to get tripped up by them. Oh wow! Is that ever the wrong way to frame the question. It's not supposed "to be" anything. It is what it is, and it's up to you to make sense of it on your own. It is tremendously important to look at an experience as it is without trying to shoehorn it into some sort of cultural language, or preconceived notion about what it's "supposed to be". Think of this as a time when you need to aspire to being the "uncarved block". The piece of wood is your life, and the carving is how your culture tells you how you should understand it. Take all the phrases like "cinnabar field", "qi", "dan dien", etc, and throw them away if they get in between you and what you really experienced. I'd suggest instead that you just describe exactly and objectively what happened to you instead of trying to fit the experience into a preconceived cultural framework. One last thing. IMHO, the really important stuff is the kung fu that you are following, not the fancy experiences you have when doing it. Think about this: the goal of meditation is meditation---not enlightenment. Consider it a koan. Think about it this way. In my sitting and forgetting practice I had many different experiences. I had intense pain for a long time, so much so that I wept buckets while meditating. It went away. I kept falling asleep. It went away. I got distracted by my chattering monkey mind. It went away. It's easy to see that these were all attempts by my "ego" to fight against stilling the waters. I also had experiences where I saw visions. They went away. I had experiences where I was able to predict events before hand. It went away. And I had experiences where strangers would walk up to me and tell me that I was a "holy man". It went away. I am of the opinion that these last three phenomenon were also attempts by my "ego" to fight against stilling the waters. Wisdom, again in IMHO---but I think I'm right, should be the only thing that a Daoist should be pursuing. Everything else is at best a sideline (good health is a useful thing) and at worst a blind alley.

If I might jump in---. This is a bit of a perennial question. Personally, I was tricked into becoming a Daoist. I was in a taijiquan club and the teacher asked me "if I wanted to join the Temple". (He didn't speak English, and I didn't speak Cantonese---there was only abysmal translation available.) I asked what it involved, and he said I had to pay $300. I said "too bad I can't afford that" (I was a janitor living on minimum wage then.) Next time I saw him, he came over "Special introductory offer, $30!". I said "why not?". Next week there was a ceremony, I wore a fancy robe, kowtowed several times, there was lots of chanting, I offered three sticks of incense (the really good stuff made out of pieces of real sandal wood) on a special altar. I left the group a few months later. I never called myself a Daoist. I was "Bill the Buddhist". I studied Sufism. Read philosophy. I still did taijiquan every day. (It cured my migraine headaches and when I stopped doing it they came back.) Eventually I came across an academic website where someone asked if someone could be "baptised" as a Daoist. The experts said "No! It's an elite religion and the public don't really have a role in it." I stepped in and described my little ceremony and asked what it was if it wasn't being "baptised" as a Daoist. They responded "That wasn't a baptism---that was an ordination!" (The English words aren't really an accurate translation, but I think you get the gist.) I mentioned this to someone else on line---a grad student studying in UCLA. He was so interested in talking to me that the next time he was in Toronto he came over to my home to interview me. He said that initiated Daoists are extremely rare in China---here they are as rare as hen's teeth. It was a huge thing for the teacher to do. (Go figure.) **** OK, enough of blowhard life's story for one comment. I only offered it to suggest that the Daoist tradition is very weird without making it even weirder by trying to be all mysterious in one's language. So "pooh" to your friend. Daoists want all sorts of crap. They are human beings aren't they? The big problem is that people who don't know much about the subject use it like a big Rorschach test. They project their ideas onto the DDJ inkblot. Perhaps a good way to get around this is to just call yourself a "traveler on the Way" instead of something like "Daoist". &&&& One other thing. You asked about tajiquan and qi gong. I agree with the other commentator that there are a lot of "flim flam" artists out flogging qi gong, Taijiquan, not so much. If you can't find a good taijiquan teacher, why not try some hatha yoga instead? Or some other martial arts sort of thing? I wouldn't recommend learning taijiquan from a video or book, but hatha yoga is easier to do and it is possible to learn it that way. Similarly, meditation doesn't have to come from a special Daoist teacher either. There are Buddhist monks all over the place, maybe you could study with one of them? You can learn simple meditation from a book too. The thing is that you don't have to "lock" yourself into anything. And no real effort is ever wasted. Doing Hatha yoga for a few years will make your taijquan better when you find a good teacher. Similarly, any reasonable effort (as long as you don't over do it) meditating will help you too. It might also make you better able to recognize a good teacher if one comes along and offers to help you at a later date.

Hmmm. A couple things come to mind. First, my immediate reaction to the piece of plastic/paper is that you are dealing with static electricity. It might have more to do with the atmospheric conditions, what sort of clothes you were wearing, etc. Either way, I wouldn't fixate on it. As Mskied pointed out that "enlightenment" is about gaining insight and wisdom. You've had an experience of some sort---that isn't enlightenment. In most spiritual systems what you are experiencing would be considered a distraction. (Zen, for example, calls these sorts of things "Maiko" or "Devil illusions") There are other currents in most systems that would consider them eminently "groovy", but it's my opinion that all this stuff is pretty much irrelevant to the real goal, which is gaining wisdom. They do have value, IMHO, in that they are the sort of thing that can "shake" someone up and get them to realize that there is a lot more to life than the dominant paradigm would lead us to believe. Many people do have these sorts of experiences and they help them gain more insight into life, the universe, and, everything. But lots of people also get them because of problems in their body: epilepsy, brain tumours, various psychiatric disturbances. So, if they continue---and especially if they grow in intensity----it would be useful to talk to a psychiatrist about these things. (You live in Germany, so I assume you have health insurance.) I'm concerned about your statement that "Knowledge about many things was streaming into me with this light. Understanding about death, birth, emotions, connection with other things and oneness of everything. It was very, very intense." This is a very common experience---I've had it myself---but it's important to realize that this "knowledge" is a bit like "witch's gold": it very quickly turns to ordinary dirt. Real wisdom doesn't come from visions and revelations, it comes from struggle over time. This isn't to say that your experience isn't potentially worthwhile, but it's important not to read too much into it. Our society punishes people who talk about mystical experiences, which means that very few people talk about them. That means that they are dramatically "under reported". It might be that you have just had one. I got involved in this stuff because a guy in a bar got me into a conversation about meditation, I tried it, and, had a tremendously intense visionary, out-of-body experience. I've spent the last forty years of my life travelling the path that set me on. But lots of folks have similar experiences and just walk away from it. It depends on the person. Others find out that they have organic problems with their brain, and, these experiences are just a symptom of an underlying problem. Unfortunately, all this stuff is tremendously ambiguous and there are as many answers as there are people. One piece of practical advice I would offer---both from my personal experience and academic studies: try to live a blindingly "normal" life. That doesn't mean "locking" yourself into something like a job you hate, but make sure you have a job. And try to "fit in"---don't wear wear strange clothes, eat strange diets, say weird things, etc. In lieu of having a teacher to help you out with this stuff, it's important to not isolate yourself from mainstream society and your already existing social support group. Even if you decide to go down the rabbit hole that has opened up before you, make sure that you do it secretly. Only share what you experience with people you think might be able to understand what you are saying. This sort of stuff is esoteric not because people don't want to talk about it, it's esoteric because most people don't want to hear about it.

This is an orthogonal response, so take it for what it's worth. First, it's important to make a distinction between clinical depression and a transitory experience usually called "having the blues". I'm not sure if what follows always just refers to "the blues", but not being a psychiatrist, I'm leery of making a broad statement about what goes on during clinical depression. Having said all of the above, in my experience conversing with Jesuits (part of my "cloudwalking thing") I came across their meditation system called "the Ignation Spiritual Exercises". One part of their system is to divide mental states into "desolation" and "consolation". My understanding was that "desolation" is what most normal people would describe as "depression" or "the blues". They had several things they taught people, such as "you should never make important decisions while in a period of desolation". Another thing that they teach is that many times "desolation" is followed by "consolation". That is, depression is often followed by a new insight. What I practice as a result of learning about this is to see a period of suffering from "the blues" as a time when my subconscious is wrestling with a profound question of some sort. This means that I am able to "bracket" the experience as something that will eventually pass, and, when it does so I will become a wiser person. This breaks up the "despair" that is the worst part of suffering from the blues. And I also have learned to look for what I have learned that makes me a wiser person afterwards. I believe that when I do this I usually do find that I've made some sort of break through that allows me to see the world---and my place in it---much more clearly. Unfortunately, other strains of Catholic spirituality make a fetish out of depression, saying that it is some sort of "gift" from God. I read the letters of "Mother" Teresa to her spiritual adviser. I found them really sad in that by the time she died she had totally lost any faith in God and thought that she was a total fraud---but her adviser twisted all this around into being a "test" meant to deepen her faith. One last thing. I don't know how committed you are to the whole "energetics" way of understanding Daoism. It is a traditional way of looking at things, but I've come to the conclusion that it is a leftover from a pretty-much obsolete school of Chinese science. I think it's much better to look at stuff from a more modern viewpoint---like I've tried to do in this comment.

I think I might have joined this group years ago, but I might have just looked at it. Anyway, I saw someone mention it today and I thought I might look at it again. One of my practices is "cloudwalking". This is a practice where a Daoist initiate leaves his home temple and wanders around investigating and studying other Temples, teachers, and, traditions---both in and outside of Daoism. So I thought I'd cloudwalk over to the Dao bums again. I've been consciously practicing daoism for about 40 years. Before that, I got introduced into "spiritual stuff" by a guy without a label that I met in a bar and who gave me a rapid initiation into mystical practices. Later on, misters Moy and Moi at the Fung Loy Kok Temple in Toronto initiated me into their lineage before I really understood what I was getting into. I left that group a couple years later, but the initiation "stuck" and I've been hooked on the specifically Daoist tradition ever since---even though through cloudwalking I've studied with Unitarians, various flavours of Buddhism, Jesuits, a Catholic hermit, and, a Benedictine nun, and quite a few others. I've pursued lots of different practices besides cloudwalking. That included sitting and forgetting, ritual practice, chanting, etc. Right now most of my practice involves taijiquan (I do open hand, sword, sabre, and, spear forms---not very well) and "holding onto the One" . I also have a Masters in Philosophy from a Canadian comprehensive university and try to amalgamate Daoism with Western understanding---including science and rational analysis. I've also spent a lot of my life involved in environmental activism and Green politics. I currently write a news blog for my local community and have published a couple books. One is on Environmentalism informed by my spiritual worldview: Walking the Talk: Engaging the Public to Build a Sustainable World. The other is about how an ordinary person can live a life in the modern world informed by the teachings of Daoism: Digging Your Own Well: Daoism as a Practical Philosophy. I'm currently retired and live in a small city in Ontario, Canada.