SirPalomides

All the trouble started with the Brad Pitt’s rights movement of the 90’s...

I don’t know if this was brought up already, but a few mass murders and attempted mass murders have already been done by men identifying with the incel movement. And if incels want to cry that it’s not fair to tar the whole movement with these acts, I say such acts are a predictable consequence of an ideology encouraging men to see themselves as entitled to sex and women as unjustly denying their entitlement.

There it is again. All that “cultivation” and still such a fragile ego. Charlatan.

If your cultivation were nearly as good as you let on you would not be spending hours on an Internet forum, reacting with hair trigger reflex to praise and blame like a typical person. If you have had good teachers I recommend not naming them for the sake for their reputation.

For starters, anyone who publicly claims to be a master of anything, or offers some spiritual service, should be expected to give a detailed account of their qualifications, lineage, teacher, etc. Members should rigorously grill them until a satisfactory account is given. “Buy my book and find out” is not an acceptable answer; “the Lord Lao appeared to me in a dream” can only work if accompanied by a humble recognition that this claim is unverifiable by others and therefore no one is bound to respect it. Those “masters” unwilling to give such an account (and there could be legitimate reasons) should be accordingly circumspect and unassuming. Publicly offering services for money on the forum or threatening those who question your authority should be grounds for ostracization and pestering until the person reforms or departs.

I think I made it as clear as I can. In any case my main questions have been well answered at this point.

Please note: This is a thread about formal lay affiliation in Daoism and not about broad questions of "who is a Daoist" or who should call themselves "Daoist". In the "Daoist associations" thread @Walker mentioned the jushi or daojiaotu designation for lay disciples formally affiliated with Daoist temples or lineages but who have not been ordained as daoshi. Is there any kind of initiation for such people? The Buddhists of course have their three refuges ceremony, where the disciple pledges loyalty to the Three Jewels of Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha and agrees to abide by five basic precepts. I know that Daoists have also adopted their own version of Three Jewels- Dao, scriptures, and teachers. I wonder if this ever translated into a lay initiation ceremony. I know that daojiaotu is a neologism but the phenomenon is certainly not new. Indeed some important Daoist movements historically involved laypeople as founders, teachers, or patrons. Sometimes I read of these people being "initiates" though it's not clear what exactly this means. Christine Mollier's fascinating book Buddhism and Taoism Face to Face talks about several scriptures where lay disciples are initiated into their use. For example, Was the initiation for these texts something like the tantric abhiseka, involving a formal ritual? But of course in Buddhism that ritual requires, as a base line, that the disciple has undergone the refuge ceremony. Interestingly in reading about the cult of Wenchang I came across an interesting prayer for entering the "church" of Wenchang, from Terry Kleeman's introduction to his translation of The Book of Transformations: Now this prayer is for entry into a lay association and does not appear to assume the involvement of any daoshi. Outside of the Wenchang association I don't know what meaning it would have in the wider Daoist community. Lastly Kleeman talks elsewhere about the early Celestial Masters/ Five Pecks Rice movement and how everyone in that community was given some kind of initiation. Children would be given what would nowadays be considered a very low-level daoshi ordination with command over a single spirit-soldier. As they got older more spirit-soldiers would be added to their register. Of course this early community was concentrated in a particular region and had an apocalyptic outlook, seeking to save as many people as quickly as possible. After the Tianshi Zhang Lu surrended to Cao Cao and the Celestial Masters community was dispersed throughout China, the ordained Daoists became a professional class within their new, non-Daoist communities.

It looks like it- Three Refuges, agreement to a code of conduct etc. Thanks for sharing this!

It seems to me there is some nonsense that has been allowed to go on too long and that is finally being confronted. So far there has been at least one good result with the (permanent?) departure of BSMaster. Charlatans need to be put on notice. But yes, I do hope things will calm down soon and we can get back to discussing interesting things.

On a related note I’ve been learning about a Daoist deity, Taiyi Jiuku, who also gives many benefits in connection with calling his name. I translated a scripture relating to him here:

Nungali, you are a treasure

Is this the fabled Manchild of the Andes?

No, instead you stayed indoors to yell at strangers on the internet all day.

I thought you said you were going outside to whack your weed.

But not you, if course.

So you don’t know what a deity is.

You can always count on me to react with sufficient thoughtlessness

Praying for genocide, totally normal

I apologize for and retract my unfunny comment

...

What’s amusing is to watch the various gurus and their hangers-on acting like they’re all cool and aloof and yet still incapable of letting these threads go by without continually interjecting.

When it comes to teachers of Asian religions operating in the West, anti-intellectualism is a sure mark of a charlatan. Discouraging students from studying what you’re not spoon feeding them, and trying to shame inconvenient questioners as “bookworms”, is a classic method used by gurus to cover their incompetence, deceit, and abuse. There is of course a point where getting out of your head and into practice is necessary but shutting down questions and criticism is something else. A popular slogan- taken well out of context- among dubious Western Zen masters is “transmission outside the scriptures”. As the Roshi John Dairo Loori liked to point out, you have to know what’s in the scriptures before going beyond them. Unfortunately Daoism is still at a very fragile, embryonic state in the West, with solid information hard to come by. This allows all sorts of scammers, megalomaniacs, and predators to operate unchallenged. Buddhism in the West has this problem too but there are many qualified, knowledgeable teachers and practitioners around who assist in cutting through the bullshit. That’s why we should be exceptionally grateful for folks like Walker waging what must feel like a pretty lonely, thankless battle.

Nope, all the women naturally gravitate toward the hunky Confucians who really cultivate those sprouts ifyouknowwhatimean

Thanks, @Walker as always. I’m curious, when you took Buddhist refuge were you doing so before you committed to Daoism? I ask because I took refuge with the Karma Kagyu tradition years ago and there was a solemn injunction not to go to other religions for refuge. Obviously I did not maintain that commitment... If this question is too personal then please ignore.