SirPalomides

Looking more into this pomegranate thing I’m seeing some travel guides to Wudang saying pomegranates are verboten along with other no-no offerings like meat. Still can’t find an explanation but evidently this is not unique to Taiyi Jiuku’s cult. Maybe @Walkerknows about this.

One thing that raised a question for me in this text is the prohibition on offering pomegranates and stove ashes. What's wrong with pomegranates? Who would offer stove ashes?

Collect your thoughts and call upon the Taiyi Jiuku Tianzun (Great Oneness Savior from Suffering Heavenly Worthy) who will manifest according to your circumstances and guide you out of suffering. Guan Yin and Amitabha can also do this.

When dogs bark at me, I just walk on by. Only a cretin stops to argue with them. If you want to make this wizard master routine work, you need a thicker skin. Also, get an avatar that doesn’t make you look like a 12 year old boy. In the meantime, Gendao welcomes you to the butthurt manchild club- you two have fun together!

I missed this part. Whoever wrote this doesn’t seem to know much about the West. Even in the US there are Catholic, Orthodox, and even Anglican monasteries. In the Houston area even. Someone who wants to help bring Daoism to the West should at least have a basic grasp of Western religious heritage. And again, if this person wants to say, “Daoism hasn’t put down enough roots in America to support monasticism” I can sympathize with that statement but don’t go making stuff up.

Wow @GSmaster you’re still quivering about what I said. That’s a few more minutes you spent crying about an Internet argument when you could be soaring through the Caucasus or perusing the library of Atlantis or something. But we losers down here are certainly very impressed with your woah totally rad grim reaper avatar fitting for a 12-year-old and your “mwahaha, puny mortals routine” showing a desperate need for validation and attention. Oh and spoiler alert

Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. I read the Tao of Pooh once.

Don't get grumpy, dude. Wu wei, be water, etc. etc. etc.

This is exactly the way fundamentalist Baptists talk. Good luck with that!

As an example of why I think this is important- if I take this three year course (online or in person)- and am ordained as a Zhengyi daoshi, will I be prepared to competently offer a Jiao ritual, or at least play a supporting role in one? My guess, based on everything I've seen about this key rite, is definitely not. It takes years of training and practice. Suppose a Zhengyi priest comes to town and says to me, "So, you're daoshi of my lineage, wonderful! I'll be offering a three day Jiao ritual for the community here. Can you assist with X performance?" Me: "Uh... I don't know all those steps." Priest: "Oh, okay. How about playing Y flute melodies?" Me: "Uh... uh..." I can imagine the three-year course can cover some of this, but hardly in a way that would be up to snuff.

I agree with that. In this case we are talking about teachers who present themselves, and ground their legitimacy in, their relation to specific lineages and traditions, and it is legitimate to discuss how what they're doing accords with those traditions. And if there is a departure, that is not necessarily a bad thing- I am sympathetic to the idea that strict Quanzhen monasticism is not necessarily something readily importable into, say, Houston Texas, but a modified- relaxed? Quanzhen-derived practice could be. But the departure should be acknowledged.

Also, Flowinghands, what the heck does participating in an internet thread have to do with someone's understanding of the DDJ or Daoism? Are you actually asserting that the core of Daoism is your thread on this forum?

1. Daoism did not exist at the time the DDJ was written and compiled. That book was adopted into something called "Daoism", and its reputed author adopted as the father of this Daoism, by people you rail against as the Funny Hats and Robes Brigade. Your attitude here is like fundamentalist protestants railing against scholars while depending entirely on translations and texts produced by generations of countless scholars. 2. Numerous important practices and principles of Daoism come from sources older than, and independent of, the DDJ.

Walker is doing us all a great service by putting his considerable knowledge and experience of Daoism- as it actually lives in China- at our disposal to evaluate the claims and offerings of various Daoist teachers in the West. We can of course do what we like with this information. Your attack on him as representing the "robe-wearing silly hat brigade" and relying on google for his knowledge is uncalled for, obnoxious, and willfully ignorant. Also, I'll say it again: Daoism neither begins nor ends with the DDJ. The DDJ is undoubtedly an important book but not the only one, and it takes its place in Daoism amid a long and multifaceted interpretive tradition, incorporating many other concepts, practices, and texts. Daoism is not what Protestants imagine Christianity to be- a faith system centered on a single book, and which needs to be purified of any influences extraneous to this book.

Thanks Walker for all this information. To become a 居士/ 道教徒 is there a formal initiation of any kind, as with the Buddhist Three Refuges/ five vows ceremony? Also, I'm wondering if you read the book Dream Trippers and particularly the chapter on Dr. Louis Komjathy, who seems to have spent serious time in Quanzhen monasteries, and is quite scrupulous/ respectful with regards to the formal structure of Quanzhen, but whose master Chen Yuming (陳宇明) initiated him (he believes as a daoshi) in a rather informal way. This apparently bothered Komjathy enough that he pressed Master Chen for some kind of certification, to which Chen replied that the public ceremonies and certificates were useless with all the fraud and simony going on in China. Chen also dismissed the title "daoshi" as an empty formality which has more to do with government recognition than a real transmission. I assume Master Chen's view is definitely in the minority- and I am not bringing it up here to establish or prove anything contrary to what you said above- but he does seem to be well respected on Hua Shan even after he left monastic life.

Letting go of a pointless beef is precisely what an adult does. Based on how you talk yourself up here, you should by flying through the universe learning arcane secrets from alien wizards yet here you are on an Internet forum with the rest of us peons, getting worked up because you think someone said something mean to you a week ago.

I've been eyeing that book for a while and will probably pick it up pretty soon. I did participate as a callow lad in Brock Silver's TRS forum when it was still running and learned a lot there. But, while I fully share the disdain for new age nonsense and the misappropriation of Daoism in the West, I think he had a fairly rigid, clericalist attitude about what Daoism is that doesn't really account for how complicated and messy Daoism is on the ground.

The deity most often associated with the literary arts (and academic pursuits in general) is Wenchang Wang, or Wenchang Dijun. Apart from statues, he is also represented by replicas of wooden pens (with talismans placed inside) and these miniature pagodas, which are popular both for general feng shui uses and particularly for helping with academic achievements. In her book Tao of Craft Benebell Wen describes these pagodas as "energy amplifiers" though she doesn't mention the association with Wenchang. Likewise Kleeman's book, A God's Own Tale, devoted to a scripture revealed by Wenchang and also detailing the development of his cult (a very colorful and fascinating story by the way) doesn't seem to talk about the towers. They are usually inscribed with the characters Wenchang ta, meaning "Wenchang tower", as seen below. Does anyone know how Wenchang Wang came to be associated with these towers?

From what I gather, a lot of Daoists in China have a pretty cynical view of the CDA administration and being top banana there (or second) is not necessarily an indication of spiritual advancement. (I am not saying this as targeted at Shifu Zhang in particular, about whom I know nothing).

On some further reading, I made an emendation: where it said "don't waste writing paper" it should be more "don't throw away paper bearing writing." This might seem like a rather uninteresting detail but it actually comes from an interesting aspect of Chinese religious culture, the practice of 惜字 (xizi) or cherishing the written word, where written characters were considered sacred and not to be irreverently trashed. If someone had to get rid of old manuscripts they should be burned- there were in fact pagodas built for this purpose, where manuscripts could be ritually burned at the altar. Most but not all of them were associated with Wenchang. Some are still existing today, mostly in Taiwan. Look at me! If I keep this stuff up I could probably trick people into thinking I'm a scholar for a few minutes.

Using my amazing powers of broken Mandarin and dictionary consultation, I have produced another attempted translation, this time of one of Lord Wenchang's morality tracts. This tract was revealed by spirit writing in the 15th century and seems to have become a staple among other popular morality tracts like the Taishang Ganying Pian. The Chinese text is available here. Again if anyone with better Chinese than mine has corrections I would appreciate them. The Divine Lord Wenchang's Essay on Hidden Kindness (文昌帝君阴骘文,) The Divine Lord says, "I have incarnated for seventeen generations as scholar-officials, neither oppressing the people nor hectoring minor officials; assuaging people's distress, relieving their worries, pitying orphans, and forgiving people their trespasses. I widely practiced hidden kindness, reaching through the vault of heaven. If people set their minds like mine, Heaven shall bless you accordingly with good fortune. Therefore, O people, I instruct you, saying: ["In former times, at the public prison at the four-horse gate in Daxing, there was a man named Ji, of the Dou clan, tall as five cassia branches. He rescued ants, and he was selected among the top scorers in the exams.] [I bracketed this part because I'm not sure if it belongs in this text but it was in all online versions I could see] "Who wants to grow the field of happiness must rely on the soil of the heart-mind. Do at all times helpful acts; practice all kinds of hidden kindnesses. Benefit creatures and people; cultivate virtue and happiness. Be upright in Heaven's stead, advancing reform. Be benevolent to the country and save the people. Hold to equanimity, widen generosity. Be loyal to lords, filial to parents, respecting elder brothers, faithful to friends. Esteeming Truth, revere the Dipper, or, honoring Buddha, recite the sutras. Repay the Four Kindnesses, widely practice the Three Teachings. Converse of righteousness and reform the wicked and stubborn; explain the classics and history, and enlighten the ignorant. "Save as you would save a fish on a dry streambed; rescue like you would rescue a sparrow from a trap. Succor orphans and comfort widows; honor the aged and pity the poor; raise up the virtuous and commend the worthy; forgive people but reproach yourself. Distribute clothes and food, donating to the poor along the road; grant coffins, averting exposure of corpses. Build charitable cemeteries; found schools to prime the young in righteousness. Let family wealth aid needy relations; grant relief to neighbor and friend. Weights and measures must be impartial- what goes out light must not come in heavy; as for the forgiveness of servants, how is it proper to be rigid and exacting? "Print and make scriptures, build and restore temples. Donate medicine for relief of suffering; give tea for quenching distress. Light lamps to shine on people's paths; build boats to ferry them over the river. Buy animals and release them, or abstain from flesh and shun killing. Walking, ever be watchful for insects; forbid fires to burn the mountain forests. "Neither climb mountains and trap birds, nor go on the water and poison fish and shrimp. Neither slaughter the plough-ox nor throw away paper bearing writing. Don't scheme for people's property; don't envy people's talents; don't lust for their wives or daughters; don't embroil people in lawsuits. Don't provoke private enmity, causing dissension between brothers; don't pursue petty gains, causing rancor between fathers and sons. Don't wield power and demean the righteous; don't employ wealth to cheat the impoverished. "Comply with your duty and comport yourself modestly; keep to the rules and obey the law. Be harmonious with clansmen and resolve grievances. With benevolent people be intimate, supporting your moral conduct in body and mind; from vile people keep your distance, preventing disaster reaching even your eyebrows. You must ever praise the virtuous while hiding their faults, not saying "yes" with the lips and "no" in the heart. Ever remember useful maxims, never speaking indecent words. "Trim hazel trees and brush obstructing the way; remove bricks and stones blocking the road. Fix up roads from a hundred years' dilapidation; build a bridge for a million people to cross back and forth. Hand down instruction to keep people from vice; donate funds to complete others' good works. In your actions abide by the pattern of Heaven; speech must accord with the heart of the people. See the ancient sages even in your soup or on the wall. Maintain uprightness and awareness even before your bed and your shadow. "Do no evil, pursue myriad kinds of good. Never shall baleful stars menace, ever having auspicious gods supporting. Soon rewards shall accrue to yourself; later rewards shall trail your descendants. A hundred kinds of happiness drawn by horses, ten thousand blessings gathering like a cloud. "Doesn't all this come from the midst of Hidden Kindness?"

That's a really pretentious way to say, "I'm trolling." And even there, the MoPai and Gendao threads have you beat. Your troll-fu is pathetic!

^ I won't dispute the central account in that article, but their historical framing replicates a number of errors common in Western accounts of Xinjiang. There is especially this claim that Han are being settled in Xinjiang to overwhelm the Uighur population. Xinjiang consists of two main regions, roughly divided north/ south. The south is the Tarim basin, the historic homeland of Uighurs since they migrated there in the 9th century. The north is usually just called Northern Xinjiang but has also been known as Dzungaria- that's because it was once the land of the Dzungars, a branch of the Mongols, who dominated the area and conquered the Uighurs in th 17th century. The Uighurs then allied with the Qing dynasty who after a protracted campaign destroyed the Dzungar khaganate and carried out a campaign of genocide against the Dzungars- with the willing assistance of the Uighurs. The Qing then repopulated Dzungaria with various peoples, including Uighurs, Kazakhs, etc but the majority were Han. Dzungaria and the Tarim basin together were made into the new province Xinjiang. The vast majority of Han in Xinjiang are in the north which was never a majority Uighur region, and mostly descended from those Qing era settlers. In the Tarim basin area, the vast majority of the population remains Uighur and that shows no sign of changing. Xinjiang in general is not a place most Han have any interest in living in. Han that move there are usually doing so to make their money and go elsewhere. Han officials posted there are typically hoping to get promoted as soon as possible to somewhere else. The narrative, promoted by the above NYT article and many others, implies that the Han living in northern Xinjiang are invaders who don't belong there. The article also downplays the issue of terrorism. To be fair, this is partly Beijing's fault, since they were characteristically opaque about many of these events for years until recently. But that there is no mention, e.g. of the thousands of Uighur jihadists in Syria, is inexcusable in my view. I think there is also cause for skepticism regarding testimonies reporters are hearing in Sweden. There was a Kazakh-Chinese woman, Sairagul Sauytbay, who left Xinjiang and gave a testimony in Kazakhstan. She told a Canadian reporter that She then ended up in Sweden, where she told Haaretz something completely different, how she witnessed prisoners being force-fed pork, tortured, gang-raped, etc., sometimes under her supervision. NB: None of what I say above in any way mitigates or excuses real abuses committed by the PRC authorities in Xinjiang, which I do not doubt are ongoing.

Beans, beans, the grim legume, dreadful emblem of the tomb. The more ye eat, the sooner gone o'er methane clouded Acheron!

I generally take people at their word if they say they can levitate, talk to celestial beings, see my aura from thousands of miles away, etc. Why argue? The question that remains is, “how’s that working out for ya?” And if the person in question still spends time trying to act cool on an Internet forum the answer appears to be “not very well.” Some basic virtues like humility, compassion, and patience still matter and without them the rest is bullshit.