SirPalomides

It’s almost like religions are based on more than a single interpretation of a single set of texts and evolve numerous shades of meaning and diverse practices across time and space and that a “pure” form of any religion does not in fact exist.

I know of a few but I’m not sufficiently malicious to facilitate inflicting your nonsense on them. The Annunaki paid me 12 Nibirian credits to write this post.

Super edgy take, bro. Take it to a Christian forum, they'll be really impressed.

That's a deeply simplistic and polemical way of looking at Christianity.

Of course not. Purely by coincidence another 50 rubles mysteriously appeared in my bank account after submitting this post.

"Facts" which are fervently believed as articles of faith by Clintonites and nobody else. Xi Jinping paid me 50 cents for writing this post.

I'm a communist. You liberals are just as bad as Trump supporters. I think Clintonites should be banned from the forum as right-wingers.

I get it, everyone whose opinion is outside a very narrow centrist Democrat window is a Russian bot or a wumao or something. Likewise everyone who opposed the Iraq war in 2003 was a Saddam agent or Al Qaeda sympathizer. Putin just wired me 50 rubles for writing this post.

Just because some fascists, for their own questionable reasons, point out the fact that Clinton and her associates are warmongers doesn't mean that it is an "alt-right talking point." If some Nazi says the sky is blue, that doesn't mean we need to contrive a detailed argument as to why it is really a subtle shade of purple.

Those are synonyms. I personally am quite okay with a bit of "Red Terror" being exercised by the admin, provided he's consistent about it.

There are important differences but plenty of common ground too. I attended a lecture by an Orthodox Christian monk who had spent time in China among Taoist and Buddhist monks. When the Buddhists quizzed him about his beliefs, they told him, "you sound like one of those Taoists" (this was meant is fairly condescending way). And indeed he seemed to have gotten along much better with the Taoists. Taoists wanting to engage with Christianity on an intellectual level would do well to read The Divine Names by Dionysius the Areopagite and the Ambigua by Maximus the Confessor. It does help to recognize that there is a lot more to Christianity than the decrepit institutional face it often wears today. Think of classic Christianity as a Hellenistic mystery religion, with heavy infusions of Neoplatonic theology and Stoic asceticism. The eucharist is basically a theurgic magickal rite.

Thanks, Walker. Fascinating information as always. That ferret possessions sounds... awesome. I wonder how fox possessed people would behave. I had read that the fox cults are particularly big in the northeast. What I noticed though is that a lot of these fox temples appearing online and selling amulets, statues, etc. are in Taiwan or in Guangdong province or Hong Kong. In the link I provided there's a video of the scripture being read in what I think is Cantonese (I've only studied Mandarin so I'm not too sure about that)

Another question, what are 令牌 (lingpai)? They look like spirit tablets but with additional talismanic stuff carved on them. Are they objects of worship like statues or do they have some further ritual function?

Could you give some pointers for further reading on Taiyi Tianzun? I vaguely recall a paragraph or two about him in Eva Wong’s guide and I’d love to learn more. Thanks!

Right there’s nothing he has to offer that can’t be learned elsewhere, more accurately, and without paying ridiculous amounts of money. And if, as he says, he was initiated by some direct theophany it seems that anyone can.

I have huge respect for Michael Saso and he's done great work in explaining inner workings of Taoism to English readers. I'm puzzled though by his insistence that the word "Taoist" must = daoshi, and that any non-daoshi calling themselves "Taoists" are somehow engaging in fraud or presumption. Part of this, I think, was motivated a righteous indignation at the way Taoism has been appropriated, distorted, and exploited by ignorant Westerners for book sales and other unsavory purposes, often accompanied by ignorant scoffing at "religious Taoism" as actually practiced in China for ages. It is of course important to make sure the authentic traditions are not obscured or hijacked by the bullshitters. The problem is that there is no indication, from the history of usage of the Western word "Taoist," that it was ever intended as a 1:1 translation of 道士. And since Taoism itself is such a complex matrix of disparate cults, practices, mythologies, philosophies, etc it seems bizarre to try to delineate the tradition in such a strict, clericalist way. Even some of the recognized "orthodox" sects today were founded by people who were not conventionally ordained by existing lineages. Not to mention the plethora of folksy, semi-literate "red hat" sects, whose origins are often obscure, but who Saso nonetheless recognizes as genuinely Taoist.

Thanks, Zhongyoungdaoist. I'd been eyeing that Benebell Wen book and your review finally convinced me to get a copy. I wish a teacher were near me to give direct guidance; the second best thing, I suppose, is to plod carefully along with the help of good books and the advice of fellow practitioners (like the good folks at this forum).

True and my addendum there was meant in half jest. Though he does seem to have acquired some solid information albeit second or third hand. If the problem is power-hungry or idly curious people, then reserve the exorbitant fees for them and don't punish everyone else. Or turn them away. Or give them very simple teachings until they learn humility or go elsewhere. The worst option is to feed the delusion that you can gain power by shelling out lots of cash.

I understand the wariness about teachers charging for spiritual teachings. This relates to something the Christian church calls "simony"- charging money for ordinations, sacraments, teachings. Some things to keep in mind, though- in the "old world", ie China or connected areas, a monastery or temple usually has a certain amount of social infrastructure, that is, a recognized place in the surrounding society, devotees, history, allowing it to rely on donations from many sources or sometimes even government subsidies. In those contexts it is relatively easy for teaching to be given free of charge or on a sliding scale. A Taoist teacher in the West is generally not going to have this kind of infrastructure. Absent some generous donors or a solidly supportive Chinese diaspora community it might be hard to pay the bills while offering free training for long amounts of time. I am not saying this to justify charging exorbitant fees for lessons, books, etc- there is plenty of room for criticism there. But I also don't think we should be too harsh. That said there is no way I'm scrounging up $400 to get remotely ordained by that Tin Yat guy.

I've heard from people on the Chinese side of my family that rubbing dog pee in one's eyes can allow one to see ghosts. This sounds like something kids would tell each other as a dare or practical joke but apparently it's seriously believed. I've also read about dog pee being used in Daoist exorcisms in a manner somewhat comparable to holy water in Christian traditions. What's the rationale for this?

That's fascinating. I knew that Taoism had some degree of influence in Japan but I didn't think there was much specific Taoist presence there. Is Taoism in Japan organized at all, or is it more a matter of solitary practitioners and syncretists of other traditions?

I raised this question on another thread, but thought that maybe it deserves its own. A lot of spiritual systems incorporate some astrology in their practice, with great importance placed on the cycles of the sun and moon as well as constellations and planets. They tend to be treated as eternal entities. We also know that these astral bodies are not eternal, even if their life spans are considerably longer than what we encounter in our "sublunary" realm. How does someone who makes use of astrology reconcile these viewpoints?

This reminds me of a temple in Beijing (Dongyuemiao) where each department of the heavenly bureaucracy is depicted with brightly painted statues. I remember there were departments for forest and river spirits, etc. Each had a place to tie red votive offerings. The most popular was the Department for Implementing 15 Kinds of Violent Death... I’m not sure if those offerings were made to inflict or protect, or maybe to improve the afterlife of loved ones.

I guess I’ll start at the top- the Three Pure Ones, Doumu, or Xiwangmu... are they dangerous for us rubes to invoke? Are they safe but unlikely to respond?

Not what I’m talking about but okay.