old3bob

yea that is the saying , but without aligned power to back it up it is idealistic and impressionable which can also be dangerous. (and there are those waiting for such to come along)

Yes, I'm familiar with Hindu based teachings about the stages that you mention, and agree about a doable process for them taking place; and most of their schools have been doing so for a very long time (in some cases for thousands of years) and then we have some co-opting going on in the "west" where people more or less by-pass time proven and safety proven processes and jump right into advanced methods (via books or their local yoga studio) doing things renunciates would normally practice under the direct guidance of a true guru, yet many are householders in the world and are not under such guidance. (along with transcendental type concepts that get way ahead of the game as related to state of being for householders)

What I mean is that it is not possible to be good parents and also go off to the Himalayas' or a monastery and meditate or do advanced practices for years and thus neglect your duty as a parent. Many or most of the quotes shared here are from monks, nuns, masters, Lama's, etc. in some kind of monastery or ashram type of setting. They normally do not have spouses, children, or private homes and worldly business to take care of, and it would not be good for either to try and do both at the same time.

"in the world but not of it" A fine saying that applies to certain levels of folks, btw. there are those that are hardly even in the world besides not being of it...those folks are in monasteries, temples, meditation caves or other isolated places with very little or in some cases no interaction with the world and its concerns. I think most of us here are householders and have various concerns in the world to deal with, thus are we not overshooting with talk of or making forays into the practices of renunciates, monks, nuns, sannyasin's, secluded masters, etc... when such is none of our dharmic business as householders and thus is counter to our rightful level of Dharmic practices ?

Small Fur, Thank you for those very far reaching reflections! On the opposite end would you also reflect on evil, great willful destructive and malicious evil, both human and demonic, that for whatever reasons it seems most people at this site do not want to address or comment on, with some seemingly sounding as if they are far above such lesser conditions or the subjects of; yet I'd say there is no enlightenment or Love without also facing the "dark side" (potential of or actual evil) both within and without of ourselves, besides our so called normal human ego type of challenges in the context of what you describe as "utter revelation"? There are several sayings in tangent that could be gone into such as, "Love thine enemy" which could turn into a dangerous exercise if misapplied... or the La La land of "new age" type of love that does not include hard and tough wisdom lessons and exacting dharmic ways and responsibilities. And there is the factual saying that the further we climb the further we can fall, thus and along that line in Buddhist history there is the story of Milarepa and his fall into black magic, which he fortunately recovered from. On a different note there is the story of how the historic Buddha recognized and gave witness to the goddess of the Earth who helped him in his battle against evil/mara, which btw I've noticed that to some Buddhists such gods and goddesses are dismissed as being unimportant or even demeaned as just more and mere illusions... ? In addition to a Small Fur replying or not, anyone else is welcome to speak up.

and its interesting to add dreams to the discussion...for now and then we may be aware of a dream within a dream within a dream, and if they are dreams that we seem to feel lost in then we want to find a way to wake up from them, and so find ourselves shifting our awareness at that level from one to another to do so... (and just when we thought we were back we realized we were still in another dream)

any form of mind power or knowledge that can be gained can also be lost, (or worse) While Brahman beyond mind can not be gained or lost as such a changeable thing; thus in an understatement so to speak, it is enough...

"...However, he would also speak of the Heart as equivalent to the Self and remind them that in truth it is not in the body at all, but is spaceless...." umm, I'd say there is a universal nexus so to speak in body for the Self which is not limited to the physical at all, which is why the Self realized are heard to say, "see all in the Self and the Self in all" (which is pointed to thoroughly in several Upanishads)

I don't know about those Buddhist terms for myself... but ime there is whatever awareness of breath before and after but not during if you know what I mean? (for then breath stops or takes care of itself) For instance a surfer may move so very fast that everything stands still and silent at once...for a timeless moment. (Aka getting tubed in an eye of power without hesitation or fear ;-)

I take that to mean effort attained the top of the pole but it will take a leap of faith to then step off of it...

Its another story though if a bear shits in the woods for sooner or later someone will smell it, especially another bear, lol Btw. if someone wants to find profound insight in that more power to them...

cool, but did you mean to say non-duality is "all temporary" in the paragraph following that? I'd say If the Self is changing and temporary then there is no "Self" as It is pointed to in the Upanishads by Self realized Rishi's and imo even in Buddhism in a way if one looks for the historic Buddha giving It witness, and if such is not so then we are all S.O.L..

"Now what are we supposed to do?"

Mark, apparently you could relate in some ways the Upanishad, that's cool. Btw, I like Zen because of its paradoxical Koans.

so simple mind can not comprehend...

which must mean beer bacteria are resistant to cold to an "x" degree, and also meaning that a multi-million dollar federal study about such is somewhere in the works...lastly meaning volunteers for such studies will be needed. (women are welcome too although the biological belly effects do not seem to be as prevalent with them, perhaps that is because many of them prefer wine with their dinner?)

"Men who drink a beer a day have more diverse gut bacteria, study finds." ....but does that mean a form of evolution? ;-) And if they drank it but no one saw them do so could they be subject to objective analysis per their belly?

A pointing to Brahman/Self for anyone interested: From the Chandogya Upanishad, 8th Prapathaka, 1st Khanda. "...1. Harih, Om. There is this city of Brahman (the body), and in it the palace, the small lotus (of the heart), and in it that small ether. Now what exists within that small ether, that is to be sought for, that is to be understood. 2. And if they should say to him: 'Now with regard to that city of Brahman, and the palace in it, the small lotus of the heart, and the small ether within the heart, what is there within it that deserves to be sought for, or that is to be understood?' 3. Then he should say: 'As large as this ether (all space) is, so large is that ether within the heart. Both heaven and earth are contained within it, both fire and air, both sun and moon, both lightning and stars; and whatever there is of him (the Self) here in the world, and whatever is not (i. e. whatever has been or will be), all that is contained within it .' 4. And if they should say to him: 'If everything that exists is contained in that city of Brahman, all beings and all desires (whatever can be imagined or desired), then what is left of it, when old age reaches it and scatters it, or when it falls to pieces?' 5. Then he should say: 'By the old age of the body, that (the ether, or Brahman within it) does not age; by the death of the body, that (the ether, or Brahman within it) is not killed. That (the Brahman) is the true Brahma-city (not the body ). In it all desires are contained. It is the Self, free from sin, free from old age, from death and grief, from hunger and thirst, which desires nothing but what it ought to desire, and imagines nothing but what it ought to imagine. Now as here on earth people follow as they are commanded, and depend on the object which they are attached to, be it a country or a piece of land, 6. 'And as here on earth, whatever has been acquired by exertion, perishes, so perishes whatever is acquired for the next world by sacrifices and other good actions performed on earth. Those who depart from hence without having discovered the Self and those true desires, for them there is no freedom in all the worlds. But those who depart from hence, after having discovered the Self and those true desires, for them there is freedom in all the worlds..."

true, concepts and or experiential recounts or reflections from someone else are never enough, although they can be of help.

Id say one can travel all the realms including the most subtle, and across all time and space (galaxies and the universe) but even that is not enough.

this could be a "cable guy" Larry's cousin...

"I fought the law and the law won", (their headgear must be great for below freezing temps)

so everybody (or several) is ignoring Steve Dwai and continuing with covid related stuff?

I'd say unresolved karma by universal law definitely pulls one back from non-dual-ness, so what we have is that one can reach non-dual for an eternal moment(s) or timelessness if that term is preferred but to resolve and balance all dualistic weight of karma along with reaching full evolution of the soul-body and the final dissolution of ego to where there is no longer a being pulling back could take eons, eons which (granted) are momentarily set aside during an eternal moment of non-duality, non-duality/Brahman as pointed to in the Upanishads. (btw we can't really nail eons down by hard and fast rules related to earth time, for time is not the same in all the realms although some comparisons have been put forth; thus one could say a cosmic cycle lasts anywhere from a half an eye blink to billions or trillions of years depending on related sight)

took a minute to figure where your cats head was from that photo, but once seen its clear. I wonder how much self healing a cat gets from their purring; did you notice any difference with your cat along that line?