old3bob

so after we get everything figured out conceptually the mind arrives here: (put on a shelf for later use) "The Middle Way (Madhyamaka) philosophy pioneered by the Indian Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna (2nd–3rd century CE) uses reason to negate our mistaken concepts about reality. Take a pair of opposites, such as real and unreal. Madhyamaka logic looks at four possibilities—that things are either real, unreal, both, or neither—and refutes them in turn. So in this case, the four negations are: 1. Not real. 2. Not unreal. 3. Not both real and unreal. 4. Not neither real nor unreal. Another way we can look at reality is as one (or “oneness” in spiritual terms), as many separate things, or as any combination thereof. So the four negations are: 1. Not one. 2. Not many. 3. Not both one and many. 4. Not neither one nor many. You can practice Madhyamaka by studying its logical arguments why any assertions about the nature of reality are self-defeating. You can also use it as a kind of koan practice. Accept, for the sake of argument, that things are not real, unreal, both, or neither. Contemplate where that leaves you. In either case, the Middle Way philosophy cuts through conceptualization and points you directly to the true nature of reality." share on Facebook (Opens in new window)o share on Twitter (Opens in new window)ick to share on Pinterest (Opens

Grace works

one way experience is described is to review in aftermath, thus that is not delusional per-se its just not and never can be the whole timeless potato that is outside of time and space. Btw, I think this fact is very well alluded too in the T.T.C.

there is that great saying about sharping a knife, in that if one keeps at to long pretty soon there is no useable knife left.

Btw, and for some folks please be aware that (Lord) Brahma the god, has different meaning from Brahman which is beyond all categories.

.skip

just ask that they use invisible ink for a normally invisible vehicle...

The way I'd put it is: absolutely astounding to a mind of complexity that is freed by absolute simplicity and unity for the first time..

I can relate to that although not so much to well meaning non-dualists or anyone else for that matter who stays within the laws for the common good. Btw, there is a Taoist saying I kind of remembered and looked up to be sure about before quoting it, "if you do not strive with others , you will be free of blame" (TTC, at the end of Chapter 8) (trying to force a stand or a way on others will backfire, the Spirit does not do that so why should we? While self defense and rightful self assertion is well within the laws for the common good, both for individuals and groups )

Umm, why be much concerned about defining "the average non-dualist" (or others like saints, gurus, masters, yogis, lamas, gods, etc.) with limitations whoever they may be unless we are somehow involved with them as a friend or student, or have concerns about how they are affecting people around us and the welfare of the public? (for instance being destructive to life in general like in some cults)

The often heard drumbeats that pound on and on about "illusion" (with its attached negative connotation) are a rather deafening affront to me... The words I'd use instead would be along the lines of evolving, temporary or in flux being that all Kosha's arise from and are connected (as derivative's) to Brahman and which also "return" to Brahman. So if folks go along with that then where does so called illusion begin or end if and when absolute connections to the Real are recognized?! Btw. and it may be a stretch (and not all that applicable of a correlation), but there is a Buddhist saying that is close to, "samsara properly understood is Nirvana)

in all these posts being right does not matter or is wrong if not done rightly

An excerpt from the Isha Upanishad, translation by Easwaran: (a Upanishad which in total is short but to me is very powerful and revealing. I'd say the meaning of the text points to a summation that in an analogy type of way says to put away the battles related to a dual or non-dual only type of argument) ".....8. The Self is everywhere. Bright is the Self, Indivisible, untouched by sin, wise, Immanent and transcendent. He it is Who holds the cosmos together. 9-11. In dark night live those for whom The world without alone is real; in night Darker still, for whom the world within Alone is real. The first leads to a life Of action, the second to a life of meditation. But those who combine action with meditation Cross the sea of death through action And enter into immortality Through the practice of meditation. So have we heard from the wise. 12-14. In dark night live those for whom the Lord Is transcendent only; in darker still, For whom he is immanent only. But those for whom he is transcendent And immanent cross the sea of death With the immanent and enter into Immortality with the transcendent. So have we heard from the wise...." (the bolded and underlined text by me)

I would refer to the way the Upanishads use the term Self, and in doing so there is only one Self... but if you mean soul well then there are zillions of those but all have the same eternal indestructible (thus not a construct) Self in the "cave of the heart". (including highly evolved souls such as angels and gods)

not sure about all of that, but The Self of the Upanishads is not a concept or belief although those may be on the way...

Well said Forest of e...for only our "true nature" which in Hinduism is pointed to as Brahman can fully satisfy and be of Rest and Joy beyond identification's that are ultimately linked to forms of suffering in one way or another, for mind and all that it is per realms and human knowledge is not the master but are tools of the master.

Some references do state that, but not the very old and also historically well known Sat-Guru lineage from India that I mentioned earlier which does teach of a major difference, as in a non-dualistic merger with Brahman, thus not a separation of soul after evolution (although the different and major Saivite sects do have a great deal of common ground as described in their teachings)

without going into a lot of references or details I'd say that an "above" or descending power helps unlock a "within" power, powers that can be so great that one should and really must be first purified in multiple ways to dwell or be with same! (although Grace can make some kind of visit (so to speak) with such possible even if one is not well prepared )

Hello Bindi, it depends on which school or order you talking about when it comes to dualism and non-dualism in Saiva Siddhanta, for insatnce: "What Is Saiva Siddhanta? "Saiva Siddhanta is the name of our school of Hinduism. It is today the oldest, most vigorous and widely practiced of the six forms of Saivism. It has many millions of devotees, tens of thousands of active temples and dozens of living monastic and ascetic traditions. Saiva Siddhanta once enjoyed a glorious presence throughout India. Today it is strongest within the Tamil traditions of South India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia and elsewhere. In fact, it is sometimes referred to simply as Tamil Saivism. The term Saiva Siddhanta means 'the final, or established, conclusions of Saivism.' Today there are two primary schools of Saiva Siddhanta. One is the pluralistic school of Meykandar, which holds that God, soul and world are eternally separate. The other is the monistic school of Tirumular, which stresses the ultimate oneness of man and God. We follow Tirumular's lineage, which is specifically called Shuddha Saiva Siddhanta. For both schools, Siva is All, and His divine, manifest energy, Shakti, is inseparable from Him. In the temples we often see Siva and Shakti enshrined as two separate beings, a divine couple, but in truth they are one. We worship Ganesha and Murugan as great Lords who serve their creator, God Siva. We chant the holy mantra Namah Sivaya. We wear rudraksha beads and holy ash. We revere the many Saivite saints. We believe it is necessary to have a living guru. We cherish the holy Sivalinga, keep company (sangam) with other devout , and revere the great many Siva temples. These four -- guru, Lingam, sangam and valipadu (worship) -- are the essence of Saiva Siddhanta as found in ancient Tamil and Sanskrit scriptures." Quoted from the Himalayan Academy in Kauai Hawaii. I've bolded and underlined the name above of what to me is ultimately the non-dualistic school of Saiva Siddhanta that works with dualism as in not being in denial of it, yet and again is ultimately non-dualistic in the final summation of its teachings on realization. A note: many people here are born and raised U.S. westerners with some Christian background and I'd say (like me) it is a major and difficult shift to try adopt, adapt or be adopted and adapted into forms of full fledged Hinduism which has very deep spiritual and cultural roots along with societal support in ways of life that are so different from common "western" ways; and that to me is one of the reasons why so many westerners have adopted what could be called Buddhism largely adapted to western peoples and its society.

From the Katha Upanishad speaking of that beyond consciousness or its Source: from part 3 #10 &11 "10. The senses derive from objects of sense-perception,Sense objects from mind, mind from intellect.And intellect from ego;11. Ego from undifferentiated consciousness,And consciousness from Brahman.Brahman is the first cause and last refuge..."

another important tangent I think worth touching on is the feeling we may sometimes have of wanting to escape from all worlds, (as Yueya may have been implying several posts back?) yet that is problematic unless it also means freedom in all worlds, with freedom including fearlessness in all worlds. A saying along these lines from the Chandogya Upanishad: "And just as, here on earth, whatever is earned through work perishes, so does the next world, won by virtuous deeds, perish. Those who depart hence without having realized the Self and these true desires-for them there is no freedom in all the worlds. But those who depart hence after having realized the Self and these true desires-for them there is freedom in all the worlds.

Easwaran translation section 18-25 18. The all-knowing Self was never born, Nor will it die. Beyond cause and effect, This Self is eternal and immutable. When the body dies, the Self does not die. 19. If the slayer believes that he can slay Or the slain believes that he can be slain, Neither knows the truth. The eternal Self Slays not, nor is ever slain. 20. Hidden in the heart of every creature Exists the Self, subtler than the subtlest, Greater than the greatest. They go beyond Sorrow who extinguish their self-will And behold the glory of the Self Through the grace of the Lord of Love. 21. Though one sits in meditation in a Particular place, the Self within Can exercise his influence far away. Though still, he moves everything everywhere. 22. When the wise realize the Self Formless in the midst of forms, changeless In the midst of change, omnipresent And supreme, they go beyond sorrow. 23. The Self cannot be known through study Of the scriptures, nor through the intellect, Nor through hearing learned discourses. The Self can be attained only by those Whom the Self chooses. Verily unto them Does the Self reveal himself. 24. The Self cannot be known by anyone Who desists not from unrighteous ways, Controls not his senses, stills not his mind, And practices not meditation. 25. None else can know the omnipresent Self, Whose glory sweeps away the rituals Of the priest and the prowess of the warrior And puts death itself to death.

well I'm not a qualified teacher but consider the koshas: (which include evolving aspects or that which is helped by and becomes unveiled per the meaning of teachings about Lord Nataraja which include an all important Grace. (with the Anandamaya kosha actually being the individual soul body as it sounds like what you mean...) "What are the koshas? Annamaya kosha, "food" sheath (Anna) Pranamaya kosha, "energy" sheath (Prana) Manomaya kosha "mind" sheath (Manas) Vijñānamaya kosha, "discernment" or "Knowledge" sheath (Vigynana) Anandamaya kosha, "bliss" sheath (Ananda)" And going further with Brahman and Satchidananda being the non-evolving and Eternal core of all souls or beings often referred to in the Upanishads as Brahman in the cave of the heart ! (which btw. is not a limited location or place as well described or pointed to in the Chandogya Upanishad and others) So this means to me or I'd say the true desire of all souls (that gets veiled with changing identifications or desires ) is to know beyond regular knowing or any doubt is the "Soul of their soul" which in Hinduism is called Brahman.

Ah, very interesting points! Btw I relate to the Saivite sects and schools of Hinduism a lot, more so to Saiva Siddanta's core teachings in particular (that include Lord Nataraja meanings and evolving souls) which do not agree with several points of Advaita Vedanta or with certain other non-dual teachings like you have noted above. Appreciate your contribution Bindi.

lets see, there is an Upanishad that speaks directly about respecting food and sharing food and the wisdom of doing so...Don't remember which one so I'll have to look it up.