Mote

"Actually it proves nothing." I disagree. "Last I checked, India is no longer colonized..." Yes, this supports my point about harboring a colonial holdover. I guess for me, it amounts to clarity. And does that word add to clarity, or does it in fact increase avidya, and thus do harm? This would be up to the individual to decide. Then again I've met people who claim to know how majorities of entire populations think. "What other yoga...in that context..." The site doesn't really present it within a context though, not as it appears. So your question kinda skirts my point. My point being, if I were to write that website, I would word things differently; arrange the words on the page and title, even, differently. Not a huge point. Many of my points amount to things like this, by the way. I've become a nitpicker of language, due to, yes, time spent with the yoga sutras. It might come off like quibbling over semantics, but to term it so would be to miss out on potentially huge 'leaks' of power, clarity, what-have-you. As the Hagakure says, a warrior treats small things like big things, and big things as small. "What we call ourselves is a matter of convention and usage." Again I notice someone seeming to speak for others not present, and I would urge caution. "Yes Hindu Dharma IS Sanatama Dharma." And so, doesn't the fact that this must be clarified, again, prove the opposite point? It seems redundant. "Sanata Dharma" alone would inform one as to more of its actual substance, while STILL informing a hearer of an Indian origin via the presence of Sanskrit. When I served in Iraq, locals would call me 'Hindu,' which, in Arabic, meant 'Indian.' And not religious. Just to, like, provide an example from elsewhere. So if you come across an Arabic speaker (and maybe you know this), you may have to get into more weeds if one wishes to distinguish ethnicity from religion from country because of this adherence to inefficient language. Inefficient language, in my view, contributes to harm in the larger perspective. Important to note that I'm not talking to all of India or Indians, but one person at a time. And the things I'm presenting here may go however they would over a conservative mindset. I understand that conservative polarization survives in India today, but I guess my words would seek to reach a mind open to changing a word, and to encourage yogis to let go of country or ethnic distinction. One of my points in this thread has been that these terms and distinctions--Buddhist, Hindu, etc--have largely served to divide us and to hinder understanding. Like the tower of babel. And I have made it my work (these days, by and large) to create something new and to try to unite the clans; so I'm merely presenting this perspective. I don't know if I can change your mind, and I'm not seeking to do so. I'm not saying a people should call themselves this or that. There's no should presented here. I wrote that it surprises me that a modern yogi would prefer the term. Just that it surprises me, which, I guess, is kinda like saying I find it disappointing. But I am entitled to my own opinion. And if others want to tell me how to live, I promise not to get offended. That's a bit of a rule I have, actually, to not allow myself to become offended--after all, who is there to offend? "I don’t buy into the post-modern humanism paradigm..Varna wasn't hereditary..." It seems like you may have missed my point here. An error on my part and I'll leave it. I believe you regarding varna and jati. RE: Naga: Ah, haha. Nahp, dragons and snakes. Funnily enough I was researching him the other day, I think because he's listed with the septirishis. But...maybe? You would likely know more than me. I added this on another post, but I've decided to step away from internet for awhile. I have enjoyed this and wish you the best. Apologies for any offense. Be well -mote

Thank you for your reply, and the noticed shift in tone. We are all in this together. Yes, it was more to-do with clarity. Especially important as we find ourselves in a thread that is, in part, regarding clarity of terms and perspectives. As Patanjali would say, "[insert language that mote does not speak]". Which a translator might put as, As the roots of suffering involve a lack of insight, or avidya, every utterance--even online--provides an opportunity to do work. And we are all learning. And so that brings me back to yama, niyama, and the word 'precept.' To which I will say that Patanjali simply lists the limbs in order, calling it a seven-step process. I can understand if one would really want to fight for a use of the word 'precept' to mean a general rule and to then include it with discussion of yama and niyama, but I think it's a fight that one does not need. Leave 'precept' to the Buddhist schools. After all, the etymology of the word "precept" breaks it into pre + cept: prae (before) + capare (take), into praecipere: warning. Even if one intends some other definition, the energy of the word will still carry through its execution, and it carries allusions to time and order--pre--outside of a "main" process. One might argue for yama as foundation, niyama also as foundation, but even then. I would simply say, Yama is yama. Niyama is Niyama. Two limbs of eight. Full stop. This shift started for me when I stopped grouping yamas and niyamas together offhandedly, and stopped terming them as 'Do's and Don't do's.' Yama; Niyama. My current practice involves sitting with each, holding a different finger for each, including them with the toes, making a kind of 'net' energetically through contemplation. When I sit in meditation, if I have to, I can lean into this invisible 'net' I've already played with. I do, though, perform these actions first in a series. But I can't say that one limb is absent, even if performing a seven-step process. The asana is always there when I sit with yama, prana always there as I hold the finger, and the meditations on yama and/or niyama constitute samyama, essentially involving all limbs--pratyahara at a low level as this marks the outset of my practice. An understanding of the power of language--I'm pretty sure, but could be wrong--is included by Patanjali as part of the siddhis which arise due to the practice. I have no siddhis, but inconsistencies in language now pop out to me, and it actually led to the end of many of my relationships. Once you understand what the effects that people's language have, it...sucks. While I don't identify as Buddhist, I think the guy hit the nail on the head with that first noble truth. Which brings me to your last point, of the distinction between 'Buddhism' and 'Hinduism.' I would agree with the distinction that Buddhism (seems to) have a historical figure at its root. But I do tend to agree with what's posited by the Lotus Sutra, that the true dharma lasts only for a time once a Tathagatha takes the stage, and then a false dharma lasts for a time. I think we are in a time of false dharma--not maliciously so, just that it's in a very Swiss-Cheese state at the moment, I would say. All to say, I think this thread points to a general call for clarity of terms, especially when we introduce other styles, compare styles. It helps everyone when we know exactly what we're saying--to the best of our ability; even though this is the internet and it sucks; sometimes it helps to become a stickler for one's own wordings. Anyway, my best to everyone. I think I've been on the internet for too long of late. I will vow to take a break. Be well - mote

Thank you for your reply. The bit about multiple maps has more to do with the structure of the sentence and argument as posited. As if to say, were the collection of statements/sentence run through an English programming compiler, it would likely show an error as output. "I've highlighted the part of your post that I found odd. Now agreed that there was no "Hinduism" during the times of Patanjali, but he is very much a part of the "Hindu" traditions (as they are construed today)...." I guess that's my point. Just because the entire world calls something a word, doesn't make it so. Just because a billion identify as such, doesn't make it much of a thing of substance, but identity. My point is that there really is not a "Hindu-ism," but perhaps "India-isms," grouped together. The fact that the link you sent unrolls into a list of many different perspectives ("hundreds", to quote the site, of which it offers a collection of six as 'classical'), to me, proves this point. That site, by the way, I would also disagree with--to say that 'yoga' adheres solely to Patanjali and his sutras strikes me as odd. That said, when I click the 'home' link of that site it begins by saying that the original term for 'Hindu' would be "Sanatana Dharma," which I would support. Honestly I'm surprised a modern yogi would support 'Hindu,' which seems to, again, just not do the requisite work that "Sanatana Dharma" would. "Hindu" seems like a holdover from colonial action, posing an obstacle to vidya, view. RE: western yogis and Hindu: I will say this much: I have learned that I never know who is on the other side of the line on the internet. I've also learned that part of the purpose of a caste system in India was to, again in part, proliferate and protect a bloodline. I have learned that such bloodlines can grow dormant and skip generations, and can be reignited. Similar reinvigorations of spiritual lineages can happen "outside" of blood as well; a being can link back in through other lives and reconnect through either dreaming or meditation. But it seems there are physical components to lineage as well, at least so once upon a time in the Brahmin line. Remember that collectives travel, lineages and cultures travel--across time and distance. Remember: we are all one human collective above all. If one feels pride at being from Easter Island, or Turkey, or Bosnia, or wherever, that's fine. But I am human, working for humans. RE: Naga: to shift toward a bit lighter of tone, I've just found it funny that Siddhartha Gautama lists as a rule--somewhere, in some sutta--that his school is meant for humans, and--specifically--not nagas, hahaha. And then Patanjali comes out with some sutras that, from a certain point of view, basically improve on Siddhartha's school, introducing the concept of samadhi, samyama, etc. So it's not Buddhist, but... Dunno where I've come across it but yes Patanjali is sometimes described as being a naga scholar, wielding a sword of discernment. When I click into it as naga understanding, it helps me. But I also have a lot of naga in my stew, so to speak.

"Soul is evolutionary..." Is this a map being described? Because it's presented as fact/territory here. "'Soul of soul' or Brahman is non-evolutionary..." Again presented as fact... "soul merges back...in certain schools of Hinduism but not in others..." which reveals the earlier statements to be not fact but indeed a presentation of one-and-more maps. And not the territory. "Btw...precepts of yama and niyama...?" Yama according to Patanjali comprises one limb of an eight-limbed yoga, and not a precept, which is a Buddhist concept. Niyama according to Patanjali also comprises one limb of an eight-limbed yoga, and not a precept. (Nor would I consider Patanjali as Hindu, other than that it is also an "Indian" method. So I see three schools at play here: Buddhism, "Hinduism," and now Patanjali's eight-limbed yoga, which I would say is neither. Honestly I think of Patanjali more as "Naga" than anything.) I'm mentioning this as there seems to be a confusion and intermingling of terms and jargon across the thread. Back to Patanjali, that name is associated with grammar for good reason. 'Hindu' I think is a term that serves us little in the current time, but does do some work. But, just as with Buddhism, after a mention of the word one would have to ask further: what type? So far as the original topic of the thread, though, I would turn to the inclusion of Siddhartha Gautama on the wheel of Vishnu avatars. Essentially to say, kinda all seems the same to me... Different avatar, different flavor, different approach...like an ultra-compassionate Vishnu, but still Vishnu, until the next turn of the wheel when the next expression takes flight.

Was this directed to me and my post? If so, I would answer: "Good question. If it matters to you, then maybe read it again and something will reveal itself. Be well. -mote"

The devotee of Neem Karoli Baba named Krishna Das, a westerner and now a famous singer, tells a story of a brief conversation he had once with the guru. (Neem Karoli Baba/"Maharaji" commonly accepted as an avatar/expression of Hanuman energy) He, Krishna Das, was hanging out with Maharaji, and Maharaji spied Krishna Das' notebook, a kind of scrapbook in which he kept things of note on his spiritual journey. Maharaji turns to a page, puts his finger on it, and asks Krishna Das what this was? Maharaji had placed his finger on a page that showed a mahamudra teaching. Krishna Das said it was just some Buddhist thing, and he felt embarrassed, having kept some Buddhist thing, when Maharaji, his guru, is clearly of the Indian/Hindu thing. Remember, Maharaji often displayed his omniscience--he knew everything--and so understood that Krishna Das felt embarrassed. Maharaji tells someone to read it. Maybe it was written in Tibetan, but someone there could read it. After the devotee had read it out loud, Maharaji exclaimed, "Teek!", as if to say: It is correct. Then Maharaji flipped again in Krishna Das' notebook, and lands on a picture of himself. He shows it to Krishna Das and asks him, "Krishna Das, who's this?" And when Krishna Das laughed and answered But, Baba, it's you, Maharaji shook his head and smiled, lay the one finger on the photo and said, "Buddha." (this was my own version of the story of his story)

The next day, the bear related everything to his wife. And this she-bear said that the topic of sung breathing and the blue electricity, water and the monkey king reminded her of a dream that she had had herself, some years ago. And in this dream, the she-bear did not know that she was dreaming, but simply exiting her cave at midnight. Before the cave there was a great, tall tree which normally was not there. At the base of this tree--this entire scene lit by moonlight--she saw a pool of water. A bubble broke on the surface of the water and a sound of music erupted when the bubble burst. As this was a dream, the she-bear simply knew to jump into the pool, that she might find something immensely valuable at its bottom. So she did, and as she sank she realized that this little pool of water was incredibly deep, and down and down she sank. Darker and colder the water became, which she could sense from every hair in her coat. Before at last hitting the sand at the bottom of the dark, she heard yet more of the same music, faint at first. A small light appeared and grew larger as the music also became louder and more clear. When she noticed that the light was in fact the presence of the Monkey King, she simultaneously noticed that all of this water is made of air. When he reached her, the she-bear noticed that the music that had drawn her there came from the Monkey King's mouth; the music ceased and he smiled, told her telepathically that he had waited many nights for her there, at the bottom of the pool. That he'd had a dream that the she-bear would fall in, and that she would not be able to swim back to the surface without him, and that he should wait for her, which he did. Before picking her up and flying them both to the water's surface, he also said telepathically that he has come for her before in other incarnations, that he would come for her again, wherever she was, no matter how deep, no matter how far, etc, etc. When they reached the land, they saw yet more bubbles appearing on the water surface. Then golden light, and then pink, and music began to play of a calming sort all about them. The Monkey King multiplied himself and surrounded the area, all 84,000 of him wielding the dragon staff, as a great bubble rose and broke on the surface, revealing a huge, flying lotus flower, upon which sat a Bodhisattva: Manjushri, smiling and wielding a flaming sword. The Monkey Kings went to attack when Manjushri smiled and a pinkness flooded the air all about, the air which revealed itself to be water. And this pinkness said to them, "Ah, 84,000 Monkey Kings, like the 84,000 dharma gates of my underwater kingdom, like the 84,000 hairs in this bear's coat!" And with a sound of Shanti, Manjushri bid them all to Be at peace. A sound of 'A Ra Pa Ca Na' pervaded the water/air about them, and the lights of silver, gold, and platinum which Manjushri played with in his hand were then passed unto the She-Bear, whose name was Glory, when Manjushri placed one finger upon her forehead and said, "Remember: I am with you. Always." Each of the 84,000 Monkey Kings bowed and uttered the syllable: Dhih! And with that, she woke up.

Lower down on this very same tree there sat a third monkey, who had listened in on everything. This monkey had insomnia, and scratched out the entire thing onto a collection of coconut shells. And he kicked each shell off his branch, one by one, one for every hour that he could not sleep. On a yet lower branch, another monkey would catch these...weird coconut shells with all these words scratched on them. And this monkey read what had been scratched and said aloud, "You know I don't agree with this use of dimensions, 8-d and all that. This person does not seem to know what they are talking about." The next day this same monkey found his friend, a bear, who lived elsewhere in the forest. The bear sat with the words for a while, made some tea and served it to them both, sat down and then said that he had had a dream some time earlier about a kind of blue electric energy. The bear said that this energy seemed connected with dragon, but perhaps dragon expressing through a different flavor of expression, a different animal. Anyway, said the bear, the animal who had appeared in the dream, via a visual pun, indicated that 'Sung' breathing would cultivate the relationship with this energy. "But that was my dream," said the bear. "And, as we both know," he said to his monkey friend, "I am a bear. And bears differ from other bears, as well as from other species. Now if you'll excuse me," he said, farting as he said it, which made them laugh.

The Monkey King took off on a journey to heaven, leaving two sages sitting on a tree branch: a student and a teacher; teacher and student. Before he left, flying on his cloud, the Monkey King handed one of the sages a note, which said: "I don't have problems connecting with these folk. I just need to know where I can find one. Others." The sage read it and looked to the other, asked if he could make heads or tails of it. The other sage said, "It's an allusion to some other conversation in some other reality. Some monk somewhere is talking about how he/she connects with a certain group; only this same monk cannot seem to be able to find the very group with whom they claim to connect." The first monkey sage scratched his head and asked if this was some kind of zen koan. The other said he did not think so. "But then, how could a monk claim to be able to connect if the same monk cannot even find them?" "Look at me, sir," said the other sage. "Do I look like I know everything?" The two monkeys sat and watched the sun begin to set. After a while, dusk, the first monkey said aloud: "I've heard it said that we retreat from that which pursues us." To which the other sage said, "Yes, I've heard that, too." And then when the stars came out and the second sage had gone to bed, the first sage said aloud, "the blue-tinged electric to which other monks have alluded seems like an 8-d creator being thing, resonant with all the names mentioned in dwai's post; the gold color connected also with 8-d and creator/creation. Agree with Earl Grey's mention of the blue, gold, purple, then white auras. Blue/gold this 8-d creator/creation, the 9-d purple with Sophia/Dragon and royalty--like Arthur, the pendragon who wields a dragon-flavored blade, the white maybe with 10-d. If so, it would explain why the princes and kings in stories like Mahabharata are not the most powerful; the strongest are pure-white aura'ed yogis who pop in and out to offer guidance or assistance. The 8-d creator being--connected with the solar lion, blue and gold together--seems to come through teachers and spiritual royalty--as dwai mentioned, beings like Krishna and Gautama. They come back to serve humanity as servant kings. The 9-d I think comes into play when the being must also serve as a political figure within the world, again as with Arthur. And the 10-d's are not to take part in humanity's game, for the most part. They may serve more as gatekeepers of the earth and guardians of the land. This lone monkey sage stood and brushed off his legs, and added to the night air, ever chilling: "Again a technique like the rosy-cross would generate a kind of signal and draw this energy to one's self. And so one would not have to set out from home to search like a fool. Indeed one would generate such a signal by simply sitting in stillness with the energies and names mentioned in dwai's post...or not. The path up one's own ass--as ever--avails itself to thee." "Stop this blathering," called the other sage from some other branch. "I have some mangoes, come have one with me."

To the OP: I wrote the following down on a piece of paper and handed it to Monkey: "since the post seems to be about meeting these kinds of blue folk, and, importantly, how to actually encounter this energy more often, mote here offers a suggestion: the rosy-cross ritual. (Especially as we're here in the weird/occult forum, guess it's ok to mention this bit of magick.) The rosy cross is a kind of (Christian?) protection ritual that should bring one closer to one's own higher being. Specifically along a kind of blue-electric thread of christ consciousness (or something like that; seems like it, etc). This ritual was what connected me with the monkey/dragon energy. It may allow you to broadcast a kind of signal, to allow more of these people/energies to find you. Word of caution: do your research. Many people say that the rosy cross causes one to become invisible to the waking world. I have found that...yeah I guess it does loosen the bonds of maya...kinda like saying, it draws more truth into your life, and that will have its effects. But that would be a practical way, I think, to actually come to know the energy better. Magick is kinda dorky though, so I find it helps to change it and make it my own. Cheers" Monkey read the words and tore up the paper and ate it and said, "That's dumb."

Glad it helped! Hahaha, I love this. Long have I loved the good lord Skeletor.

It seems like the videos posted to this thread are meant to say some things on current events? If so, then one could say that the use of the Simpsons clip in the first post falls to a hasty generalization fallacy, and the second clip to the moral equivalence fallacy. Who knows what? P.S. Of course, though: I expect OP means these as a joke? To which I would reply: a ham and cheese sandwich walks into a bar, asks for a menu. Bartender says 'Sorry we don't serve food here.'

Kinda interesting that while I was typing out a message that included an allusion to Monkey King and dragon staff, OP posted relating the query to Dragon Ball, e.g. Sun Wukong in another form, Sun Goku, dragon staff and all. Another thought occurred: such people may simply be people with a Water Moon on their natal chart. As in, the moon resides in the sign of Scorpio, Cancer, or Pisces. The moon will dictate the qualities of the aura. Water: fluid aura; Earth: "thick" or hard, good for magic; Air: expansive; Fire: annoying (haha). Ivo Domingues writes about this in his book on Practical Astrology. But again, dunno if it's the same thing or not.

I've come across these very same sorts of descriptions. For me it is connected with dragon energy; while it seems all humans relate to dragon and all can have their 'dragon time' throughout their journey, the people you're describing I think are born a bit different. As in, their prime energy is dragon, and maybe specifically a water dragon, which I have seen described as being basically one dimension removed from source. These people may be something like hybrid humans, integrating either some kind of elemental, or maybe starseed or angelic aspect of spirit. Which, I guess is to say that there may be powerful spiritually-attuned incarnations/souls stemming from their spirit which reside close to the surface in this human incarnation, and these other lives may either come from or else have relationship to other star systems, things like that. Atlantis, maybe, if it's a thing. But the dragon energy it seems rests in the heart, until the time to awaken or integrate it. (I've heard that South American shamans say that those with resident power animals will show the energies as residing in their heart. Even if dormant in this incarnation, it may indicate that their being either made a covenant at some point with the being/dragon, or else just is the dragon, and must find itself in another form and reconnect. Like how the Monkey King finds the dragon pillar to use as a staff--he finds a deeper, stronger aspect of himself in the deep water, connected with dragon.) Yes, I think I've encountered such energy also in males. Two, I think. They lean more towards the center orientation-wise sexually and with regard to gender also more fluid. Very creative--at least the potential; they may be out of sorts and not expressing it much; their family/friends may have convinced them to keep things hidden. But dragon is big energy and will express when its time comes. Yes to water-like aura. According to a kahuna I met, he said that dragon energy is not necessarily rare, but certainly not common. Christ consciousness. The most explicit instruction I've received thus far as to how to cultivate/awaken this is (from a guide, via a clairvoyant): "Be still." Bardon practitioner William Mistele has videos and essays about water people, especially a lot about the women. It's kinda borderline cringe to me, how he seems to nearly idolize women; nearly. Anyway he has interviews with some of these people, like this one, wherein both this man and woman describe interactions with water elementals:

mote here, requesting a PPD please. Thank you.