Daniel

Dude. You're not anti for asking. Your friends aren't either. This stuff flows downhill. I'm too busy right now to get into this. If you're actually interested, start a thread, we'll look at it. If not, you don't care about my input, you want to believe the rumor. Mat, if you want to believe it, go ahead. Just don't ask me about it, if you don't care about what I say.

If you're not quoting the law, you're not talking about the law If you're not quoting the Talmud, you're not talking about the Talmud. If you're not quoting the Torah you're not talking about the Torah. You heard a rumor. Sounds like you believe it. That's the bottom line.

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No. It's not the case. Jewish Law has no justification over non-Jews. That's Shulhan Aruch Jewish Law has no justification over non-Jews. Can you show me? Did you actually come across it or did you hear a rumor? If it's from the Talmud it's not "law" it's a story or a debate. Were you told? You heard a rumor? Or did you 'come across the law' as you said? Which is it? FALSE Leviticus 24:22 משפט אחד יהיה לכם כגר כאזרח יהיה כי אני יהוה אלהיכם׃ You shall have one kind of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country; for I am the Lord your God .

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Bro, you can't expect anything like that from me, without a commitment in writing explicitly offering to do the same for me. At least I put it in a spoiler. Everyone sees the shit you post, and your BS double standards. Bye.

Never-mind. Forget about it. The other readers will understand or not.

The story you're referring to, I know it as chapter 6 in Genesis which follows the previous 5. Chapters 1, 2, 3 are the creation myth. In Chapter 1, the first commandment is given. "And God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over those flying in the heavens, and over every living thing that moves on/towards/against the earth." Be fruitful Multiply Replenish subdue the earth have dominion over over all the others, on the surface of the earth, what's beneath its depths, and all that are in the skies, among the stars, and beyond That's a tall order. Certainly, this can be applied for help or for harm. What follows is a story about how to choose: to help or to harm. The entire Torah is telling this same story over and over. Any law can be flipped: to help or to harm. Laws come in two forms: To do ( a positive commandment ). Not to do ( a negative commandment ). Both can be flipped for help or for harm. Because of this, sometimes, breaking the law is helpful. And. Sometimes, following the law is hurtful. So: how does one choose? That's the story that's unfolding. The "Abrahamic" point of view believes that the ONLY way to make these choices consistently for helping and avoiding harm is via an encounter with the divine. That's the whole Torah in a nutshell. Chapter 1: the story of all reality emerging from Chaos-and-Void via divine fiat. An aloof, emotionally vacuous deity, commands with absolute authority. No one dares question it, if that's even possible. God speaks, it happens immediately. There are no choices. Creation as described here is the path of Strict Justice. Chapter 2 contrasts with this. Here, God is both strict and caring. The strict justice is sweetened. "Sweetening" is a Jewish theological concept. It's how we Jews deal with adversity. We joke: "It's our sense of humor which sustained us in the desert and through all of these years of exile. If we weren't laughing, we'd be crying." This chapter is the beginning of teaching the lesson which is the entire Torah: How does one take a law, from the path of Strict Justice and sweeten it, in such a way that the outcome is consistently helpful, not harmful? The simple answer that's given in chapter 3: God chooses to sweeten it with mercy if the two who committed the crime confess honestly. There are consequences for their actions: This is Justice, but it's sweetened with kindness. God here in this story is not revealing itself as the strict authoritarian "Elohim", the mighty forces of nature in concert, obeying the conductor without any questions. No questioning. In Chapter 2, the improved version, the sweetened version of the creation events, God is revealing itself as YHVH+Elohim. Both simultaneously. Strict Justice which is deriving from, inclining towards, sweetened by, Mercy. Here, God is among its creation in a garden walking with them. Here, there is a cycle of life. Mist is rising, rain is falling. Flowers and plants are sprouting and blooming fresh, season after season. This is the story of the "Toldot" the generations, the cycling of life which is being described as a consequence of God's Mercy. Here, humanity receives its life-force directly from the lips of The Almighty, into their nostrils. This is not the story of a God which is aloof. This God is present. And, strangely, has a touch of a sense of humor. All the other creatures, including the most cunning beast of the field ( a type of angel ) emerge in the garden. Then, A man is formed ( not created ) from the dust of the earth. And in the presence of all the others ( including the most cunning ) 2 laws are given, not just 1. This too, is contrasting with the first chapter, the original version, where there is only Strict Justice. A challenge now is presented to the reader. "How does one reconcile these two very different creation stories?" The answer is simple: choose. Which world does the reader want to live in? Both are happening simultaneously: The Path of Strict Justice, and also, the Path of Strict Justice which is being sweetened. And this is the very first, the original source for all apologetics. It begins here, in Chapter 2 of the Torah. Yes, we're the best in the business at flipping things into something good ( apologetics ). Why? We're taught, "We've been doing this forever. Since the beginning of our written legacy. And, BTW, it's the path to peace, and a method for leading a purposeful, moral, upright, and supremely satisfying human life. But, according to our teachings, our collected wisdom, this can only happen via an encounter with the one and only Divine-Will, there are no others. Gratefully, if God is filling the heavens and the earth with its Will, Wisdom, Power, and Glory, there's plenty of opportunity for everyone, man, woman, Jew, or not, to learn the mysteries of reality and encounter the divine. The divine is everywhere and everything. But, as it exists in the material world, it needs to be sweetened, and that is the job of the human. The one who can improve, themselves and the world. God cannot improve. That is its one and only limitation, in our theology, except, this word as applied here, the absence of any and all limitations. That's why it cannot improve. In chapter 3, we meet the most cunning of the beasts of the field. Here, in this improved version of the creation story, the sweetened version, questioning is natural. But, this comes with a price. Lacking knowledge-of-good-and-evil ( a specific type of knowledge, which does not exist, and cannot exist, while reality is emerging only from from the Chaos-and-Void ), there is no way for a person to make moral choices. The serpent hears the law being given to the Man. Naturally, it desires. It's in its nature, to rise and strike, sinking its fangs and taking the entire bounty. Splitting and dividing its jaws in a way that is somewhat disturbing. For what purpose? Eating everything, and leaving nothing behind for anyone else? That's what it was made to do: Swallow whatever it desires, consume it, and render it back into the dust from where it came. It too received its own law, that's in Chapter 1. Multiply among you own kind. But in chapter 2, something special happens. Something new is formed... a woman is built-up from the side of the man. Version 2.0 . She is named, explicitly, his "Helper". In this story, which is again, the improved sweetened version, in contrast to the one which preceded it: Man needs a mate. And none of the others will do. Because this one, the woman, is new, that presents an opportunity to the serpent. There's a loophole in the law which can be exploited for its selfish, natural, desire. And the story continues, it's a story many speak about, but few know the details precisely as they're written. But, if its read carefully, after the Man and his Wife eat from the tree-of-knowledge-of-good-and-evil, they too know how to employ the loophole, but this time it's not selfish, it's in their defense. And, if the story is told, in the way I like to tell it, and the way I was taught, it's all a little comical. In chapter 4, it's this same story again. Eve one would expect is very careful now in how she is teaching her offspring. But, its not enough. Her two sons, both are taught the laws of offerings ( sacrifices ). One applies it in such a way that God is pleased. Abel brings the best of the flock. Cain does not. Again, the contrast is the most important part of the story. The serpent, the adversary, is making another appearance here. But in a different form. It's also rising and striking with a question, naturally. God says to Cain: "If you improve, it will be good for you. Sin is crouching at the door, but you can be its master." Cain replies: "Is my sin too much for YOU to bear, Almighty God?" God replies, and puts its mark on him, so that all will know: "Nothing is too much for God to bear in its Mercy." The people see this, and obey: "No Murder? Fine. ... And nothing is too much for God to bear? Oh really? Fantastic." And that leads to the story which comes next. The era of Enoch, which we Jews are taught, is the beginning of idol-worship in all of its many-many forms. One of those forms, is imaging oneself, and behaving as a "Son of the Gods". And that leads us, finally, to chapter 6. Where we meet the Bene-Elohim, often translated as "Men of Renown", they are the "Champions of the Human race". We're taught, these are like tribal war-lords. Feudal, primitive, households, with a "Man" in charge who took what they wanted. These individuals, "The Sons of the Gods" amassed wealth from their robbery. What's the worst of the worst type of robbery? Kidnapping. If someone wants to manipulate me or anyone. Take their children as hostages. It's far far worse than murder. It cannot be tolerated under any circumstances. If it is permitted anywhere, by anyone? The world is returning back to Chaos-And-Void. "There's nothing God cannot bear? A child is delivered from a specific womb? To a specific household? Who cares? That child is mine. There is no divine order. There is no divine plan. There is no divine law. I can take it, if I want it. And I will use it to manipulate and extort and force my will how every I choose." And that's the world that's being described immediately prior to "The Great Flood". Chapter 6 begins: 6:1 ויהי כי־החל האדם לרב על־פני האדמה ובנות ילדו להם׃ And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 6:2 ויראו בני־האלהים את־בנות האדם כי טבת הנה ויקחו להם נשים מכל אשר בחרו׃ That the sons of Gods saw the daughters of men that they were pretty; and they took as wives all those whom they chose. I don't remember. But it makes sense doesn't it? The "Sons of the Gods", stole the daughters of Adam, this produces a sort of "giant" race of beings. And not a friendly one. I hope this helps and wasn't too long. It's very important that each of the other chapters are included in the understanding of what happens in Chapter 6. If you have questions or comments I am very curious to read them. Blessings to you, always and forever,

~off-topic~

I agree that's the best way. If needed, there's a way to sift the many interpretations and filter out the noise. Good interpretations are consistent. The literal is in harmony with the figurative. Bad interpretations conflict. The literal is in contrast to the figurative. It's an easy way to objectively compare differing interpretations/understandings as you learn them and gather more knowledge. It's useful. Peace bro,

If you are a Christian, I think this is important as well. So much of Christian proof texting comes from Pesher. Again, dual story lines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher

For your review? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(exegesis)

If a person would like to show that the exodus cannot possibly have occurred in the manner which it is described in the Torah, they don't need any of this. All they need, is to read the story. How long would it take for 600,000 Jews and another million or more of the mixed multitude of Egypt to cross the red sea? There's no way it happened in the manner it's described. It's ridiculous. Similarly, Moses addresses the entire group? And, according to the story, they all heard it? There's no way. The numbers are outrageous. So, I'm not sure, what's really useful about bringing Finkelstein into this. Doing so, causes a lot of problems for the, forgive me, typical bible critic. Here's why: Conventional scholarship posits the composition of the Torah to have occurred 500BCE-ish. This date is key. It positions the composition of the Torah within the Babylonian exile. That's very important, because, the typical bible critic argues that the Torah is Persian. Therefore, this date, 500BCE, is important for that specific criticism. That date? It assumes that the Book of Ezra is historical. Using the method: "deny any historical value to biblical accounts" as the beginning of inquiry, the Book of Ezra is dismissed. The opportunity to copy/borrow Persian mythology is ... poof. I think, but I'm not certain, those who have adopted Finkelstein's method produce a much later date of composition of the Torah, 150BCE-ish. This may or may not be appealing to the bible critic? I don't know? But using this later date, it's more difficult to make the "It's borrowed theology/mythology" claims.

Exactly. This is a new method. Completely. That's what makes it interesting. A lot of people like it. But, naturally, it's going to be missing a significant amount of information. What ever data is collected and presented by Finkelstein is going to be a minute fraction of what actually occurred. The standards are impossibly high due to the age of this story. Agreed?

Exactly. What do you think of this of this method? "deny any historical value to biblical accounts" as the beginning of inquiry? Because my views are irrelevant. ~nods~ Yes. That's what I said.

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Why not "and"? Literal AND figurative? There's a literal story ( true or not isn't that important ), and more general figurative story being told at the same time?

Why not?

Part of your theories. Those parts, the ones from Dr. Finkelstein are one end of a spectrum. At the other end, is biblical literalism. And in the middle is Dever. Dever and Finkelstein argue. Are you familiar with the criticisms of Finkelstein's research? Or are you hunting for validation, and ignoring all the others?

... like a city which is knit closely together ... ( psalms 122 ) Hit it Matis!

It has a nice ring to it. Related to your avatar? Fist of the NorthStar?

... a dog is a fish, but don't ask me how ...