Daniel

A couple of brief but important corrections: 1) I was confusing the Guanzi with the Zhuangzi when I spoke about a political treatise which contains a few important passages/sections on self-cultivation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanzi_(text) 2) There is a radical approach to wu-wei which interprets it in a way which sees no differences, no distinctions, and lifts it up as an ideal for promoting anarchy. Although it appears that this is a modern application in response to a rejecting political communism. 3) The non-dual "experience" is certainly included in daoism. ( arguably, everything is included ), although I reserve the right to have a a natural spontaneous reaction to it when it is lifted up as the "only way to understand the eternal dao". This non-dual experience is called "zouwang" Oblivion(?) Forgetfulness(?) To-Neglect(?). It seems to be precisely what I said, "favoring WU which is denying WEI". Seems to have made an appearance in writing somewhat late. The definitive english text on it comes from Livia Kohn, who happens to be the one who wrote the entry on it in the Encyclopedia of Daoism. I have not read the book, but searching it for "wu-wei" and "wuwei" produces no results. https://archive.org/details/sitting-in-oblivion-daoist-meditation-livia-kohn/page/n1/mode/2up?view=theater&q=wuwei https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuowang

From my perspective it's the inner-essence which is fixed/predetermined and hidden until the vast potential field is realized as an illusion of subjectivity. This subjectivity is what I meant by "the reflective surface observed by the senses." There is an illusion of vast potential which is a consequence of the partnership of fixed-and-concealed always and forever. The illusion is produced in the mind because of everything which the inner-essence "could-be", which is another way of saying, "all that it is not". What it "could-be" and "all that it is not" are subjective. Once it the inner-essence is revealed, the vast potential becomes actual, fixed in time and place, revealing the truth, the essence of each and everything is fixed and predetermined, objective. Now considering the special case, the exception, if the inner-essence is **actually** "vast-potential", literally. It is "fixed/predetermined" as vast-potential. While the inner-essence, vast-potential, is partnered with concealment, there is only one thing it is not: actual. This produces the illusion that nothing is fixed/predetermined. Once this specific/exceptional inner-essence is revealed, the vast-potential becomes actual, but in this case it is **actually** vast potential, which can never be fixed in time and place. If it can never be fixed in time and place its potential becomes objectively NULL and insignificant. The vast-potential is an illusion because it can never resolve into anything. Never. Finally, to be complete: all the middle cases between the two extremes are considered. What if the inner-essence is a combination of fixed/predetermined qualities and vast-potential which is being concealed? Still nothing changes. The fixed/predetermined qualities are being revealed as objective truth. The vast-potential is revealed as objectively NULL and completely insignificant. In all cases the vast-potential field is an illusion. It never renders anything actual which defeats itself. By process of elimination, the inner-essence is something which is fixed/predetermined and hidden until such time when it is found ( assuming time exists ). OK. Thank you. This describes the time when it is revealed?

Yes, you're right. That was wrong of me. Thank you. OK. Thank you again. That's very helpful.

I doubt it. Just an annoyance. But the stingers, I understand are very thin, and very difficult to remove. Kind of like sea-urchin. I haven't eaten it, but there is a tea company that makes nettle tea. I was aware that it has medicinal properties, but I don't know what those propoerties are. Generally, the same plant that harms has its own remedy? So I would expect that it somehow is soothing. Perhaps, that fits with the commercial market for the tea. My favorite forest floor snack here is oxalis. It's lemony, and wonderful, and grows like crazy here in large lucious blankets. Respect. Kapu. People aren't nearly as forgiving nor springy as a friendly maple... leaves like open palms, with nothing but love to give. Moss is fantastic! I have indeed slept on moss. But, it's kinda soggy round here. Makes a fabulous water filter though. The varierty here has a bit of iodine in it. And it's great for other...stuff too. The thing with moss is it will populate in the inner junctions of of trees and then those junctions will rot out. Then the tree splits apart. So that's a problem. Also, when the moss climbs up a tree, it won't produce leaves in that section. The branches get weak. And it just is a disaster. Here''s what I'm talking about: Just chokes the life out of those trees. I bet you have some wonderful reptiles and insects there? Also rodents? The cougars and bears aren't usually too much of problem. People aren't really on their menu. My encounter wasn't too bad. It was after my soup. But a truly miraculous beast. Bouncy! That's what I wasn't expecting. Like a boxer. But once the soup was gone. It almost immediately lost interest and rather slowly turned and headed back into the forest. I wasn't too worried about it after that. I did eat cold food though in that area in the evenings. That specific location is where the US forest service deposits misbehaving felines. The ones that are getting into people's trash and stuff. So it makes sense that it smelled my food and was drawn to it. We have a friend who was attacked by a bear though ths season. Nothing major she fought it off. Had bruises and scratches all over her face. But no major punctures. Had bear spray, couldn't deploy it fast enough. Was on her own. Luckily in an area with cell service. Not really sure what happened, but she ended up off trail by about a mile and needed help finding her way back, I guess. The thing is with these animals is, they are unpredictable. Not like ticks, not like snakes. When the season is harsh on them, they'll adapt and start trying things they haven't tried before or seen other animals do successfully. And that's when man-flesh gets put on the menu.

Yes, I quoted this article as well earlier today. Please help me understand what it is about "an act of Confucian filial piety to his father." would result in not having a positive dispostion towards LaoTzi? Or is there something else I'm missing? I just did a quick search to see if there was a rivalry, and this is what I found: Laozi served as a keeper of archival records at the court of Zhou. Confucius (551–479 B.C.E.) had consulted him on certain ritual matters, we are told, and praised him lavishly afterward (Shiji 63). This establishes the traditional claim that Laozi was a senior contemporary of Confucius. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/laozi/#:~:text=Laozi served as a keeper,a senior contemporary of Confucius. This is indicating to me that someone who is influenced by Confucius would also have the same positive dispostion. But please correct me if I'm pointing in the wrong direction. Sincerely.

Not all bush is the same. We have stinging nettle here. Although, it sounds lovely in the right time and place. It's always a trade-off. The faster one goes, the less they need. But if they don't need to go anywhere, what's the rush? And local knowledge of the terrain always wins. I'm not a tracker. But I enjoy "listening to the trail" and imagining what "could-be" that left those signs. Again, if I'm not on a schedule. And, things grow like crazy around here. There's lot's of vine maple, that's what is often reaching into the trail. Super springy. They don't care about me and my tromping. I kind of think they like it. Anything I push out of the way is bringing sunlight and fresh air to anything below. The fresh air is key because it slows down the moss. And moss can suffocate a beautiful grove. It's all trade offs. Some of my favorite memories were night-hikes, full moon, no head-lamp needed. But... we have cougars here. And it's not the desert. So they can be right next to you and you'd never know. I've seen two. One at night while I was hiking, and one came right into my camp.

Agreed 100%. I'm thinking of maybe, carefully slowly walking through the underbrush. Or perhaps wearing long sleeves and long pants and just going for it. I'm thinking long-sleeves and long-pants are wu-wei for me, because it's quicker and, more fun, and even if I pick up a few ticks along the way, the ticks won't kill me and ticks are predictable. So, I can stop once per hour or so, do a tick check and keep on moving. Nice. "That's what they (the forces of nature) are there for?" - Sounds like you agree. Creating an advantage for reduced effort and conscious control. A water wheel might be a nice example? Stacking the deck in favor of turning the millstones automatically with minimal effort and almost zero conscious thought. Using the force of gravity and and nice powerful stream?

What do you think this implies about the author's dispostion towards Lao Zi?

Which would also contradict the general theme/genre? Do you think it's fair to expect a biography of this sort to consider Lao Zi as a positive figure? I know nothing about the author. A cursory wikipedia search indicates that they are influenced by Confucius. These are the citations they bring in support of this. The trend they are identifying is a historian who considers themself duty bound to establish fairness, correct the record, and that fairness and correctness exist. If I understand, they consider this historian believes that conclusions can indeed be developed per a natural order and this historian is reflecting that in their work. ( all of this assumes a proper translation ). 夫春秋 ... 別嫌疑，明是非，定猶豫，善善惡惡，賢賢賤不肖，存亡國，繼絕世，補敝起廢。 It [Spring and Autumn Annals] distinguishes what is suspicious and doubtful, clarifies right and wrong, and settles points which are uncertain. It calls good good and bad bad, honours the worthy, and condemns the unworthy. It preserves states which are lost and restores the perishing family. It brings to light what was neglected and restores what was abandoned. 或曰：天道無親，常與善人。若伯夷、叔齊，可謂善人者非邪。積仁絜行如此而餓死。... 盜蹠日殺不辜，肝人之肉 ... 竟以壽終。是遵何德哉。 ... 余甚惑焉，儻所謂天道，是邪非邪。 Some people say "It is Heaven's way, without distinction of persons, to keep the good perpetually supplied." Can we say then that Boyi and Shuqi were good men or not? They clung to righteousness and were pure in their deeds yet they starved to death ... Robber Zhi day after day killed innocent men, making mincemeat of their flesh ... But in the end he lived to a great old age. For what virtue did he deserve this? ... I find myself in much perplexity. Is this so-called "Way of Heaven" right or wrong? 蘇秦兄弟三人，皆游說諸侯以顯名，其術長於權變。而蘇秦被反閒以死，天下共笑之，諱學其術。 ... 夫蘇秦起閭閻，連六國從親，此其智有過人者。吾故列其行事，次其時序，毋令獨蒙惡聲焉。 Su Qin and his two brothers all achieved fame among the feudal lords as itinerant strategists. Their policies laid great stress upon stratagems and shifts of power. But because Su Qin died a traitor's death, the world has united in scoffing at him and has been loath to study his policies ... Su Qin arose from the humblest beginnings to lead the Six States in the Vertical Alliance, and this is evidence that he possessed an intelligence surpassing the ordinary person. For this reason I have set forth this account of his deeds, arranging them in proper chronological order, so that he may not forever suffer from an evil reputation and be known for nothing else. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian For me, I am focusing on the contrast between what is natural, "[The seasons] distinguish ... settle right and wrong." And what is, maybe unnatural(?) "Some people say... heavens way is without distinction..." "Some people say..." is a polite form of dissent? If so, Sima Qian is favoring the seasons which "settles points and uncertainty". This would further support that their writing would take a firm position on Lao Zi's mysterious origins. Kind of a fun idea? firmly-mysterious? or certainly-mysterious? certainly-uncertain? Are there any common images or symbols which might indicate "malefic", "deleterious"? Thank you,

Why did the kitty cross the lilies? To get to the other-side.

... which confirms that everything that exists has an inner-essence which is concealed by the "reflective" surface observed by the senses?

@oak, How about this for the feeling of wu-wei? "... we're one... but we're not the same. We get to... carry each other, carry each other... one...." Carrying. How can they carry each other simultaneously? Yet that's exactly what's happening. In order to carry it, it needs to be released, to be free, to survive and thrive. Then this natural survival and natural thriving is doing the carrying. But it cannot carry anything, if, it's not being carried. There's a double meaning here. "it cannot carry anything, if, it's not-being-carried". "not-carrying-is-carrying". They're one. ----> They're both "carrying" But they're not the same. -----> one is carrying directly, the other is carrying in-directly by not-carrying They get to carry each other... carry each other... but not in the same way and this is how they are one. Here's the video in case you don't know it or remember it. Lot's of great natural/freedom imagery. Great song too, imo. Some people don't like bono, though.

Path of least resistance, as opposed to the brute force approach, but brute force is not excluded if it's the path of least resistance? And, stacking the deck in your favor is encouraged? That's what they're there for?

I'm wondering if wu-wei divided from tzujan produces a form of death? Not always literal death, but tzjuan, in a way, dies? It's stifled? suffocated? forced? coreographed? even ... anticipated? I'm following the example you brought in my mind, petals are unfolding. When I exclude wu-wei, the petals are being, perhaps, forced open prematurely. Or they are unfolding naturally and are being, perhaps, held back, forced to be closed? Both, in my mind represent forms of death. And if tzujan is divided from wu-wei, maybe slavery or maybe even some sort of self-delusion is produced? maybe-maybe. Two maybes. Maybe the non-action is not in harmony with the dao? Maybe instead it is submitting to some "other" master which is not in harmony with the dao? But, maybe it is in harmony, and maybe the submission is to the dao. It's complicated, because, when I consider cause-effect, I consider them in chains: long chains that seemingly never end and have no beginning. But, not exactly. I like the image of ripples that you brought. Like ripples, eventually they reach the shore, or perhaps another ripple intersects with it, or even a large wave is produced which renders the ripple insignificant. So when tzjuan is divided from wu-wei, in my mind, it's almost like the stream of intuition ( literally, the rippling stream ) dissappears. The stream becomes concrete? The individual would not be able to recognize what is in harmony with the dao because the qualities that define harmony no longer exist? And this would maybe produce a slave who is serving an unknown master which not in harmony with their own true nature? And/or the individual might delude themself into "certainty". Because there is nothing to interpret, there is no tzujan, there is only wu-wei? But! It could be that the actions happens to be in harmony with the dao, even though there is no stream of intuition. So, it's a maybe for me. But the odds are, that it won't be in harmony, because there are so many unwise choices compared to the few which are good. Chaos is encouraged, with the slight possibilty of a happy-accident. And then going back to precisely what you said: "woven". Maybe when wu-wei is divided from tzujan, in a way, the dao itself is being unwoven? Like a tapestry? Instead of continuously being made, it would be continuously being unmade? Harmony is both being stifled and random chaos is being encouraged?

I think it is. Agreed. I think what you're observing with individuals who are, in my opinion, spiritual people making immoral choices is a consequence of being finite individuals living and operating in a physical world. Everything physical, everything material is by its nature imperfect, and this physicality conceals the interconnectedness of everything that exists. If people realized how connected everything is, I doubt they would behave the way they do. But, it's a material world, where everything appears to be distinct and divided. Further these distinctions and divisions are not limited to what are traditionally considered material "things". Just as people can be described as body-soul. Almost everything can be described this way. The body is the outershell, the soul is the inner essence. It's the outershell that produces the illusion of division and distinction. The outershell is imperfect, it's what is processed subjectively by the human brain. The inner essence is the perfect true identity of what each "thing" actually is. It's somewhat easy to imagine animate objects having body-soul. It's a little more difficult to imagine inanimate objects having body-soul. And it's even more difficult to imagine words, thoughts, ideas, and symbols as having body-soul. But, everything can be described this way with one exception. Rules can also be described as body-soul. The "letter of the law" is the body, it's the part that can be subjectively interpretted, loopholes identified and exploited. This is when the subjective interpretation disagrees with what the law actually intends to prevent or encourage. Or, the letter of the law can be interpretted properly without loopholes without exploitation in a way which agrees with the "spirit of the law". It's the spirit of it which is beyond corruption. Just as there are human constructed rules, there is also a higher law. Just as there is human constructed justice, there is also a higher justice. All of those have body-soul, part of it can be corrupted, and part of it cannot. The higher law and the higher justice are not excluded from this. The higher law can be subjectively interpretted in a way which either agrees or disagrees with the spirit of the higher law. Now here's the most important part. Justice. When people experience justice which results from crimes, either human constructed crimes or crimes of the higher law, the "body" of the justice that is served is subjectively interpretted. This permits people to rationalize what is happening to them, and they make excuses and avoid personal responsibility. But the "soul" of the justice that is served is happening regardless of whether they accept it or acknowlede it in any way. Even if people acknowledge the "body" of the justice that is being served, there is always something hidden happening behind the scenes, that is concealed by the outershell of the justice they are recieving. So, as a consequence of living in a material world, there is a lot happening which is hidden, and not apparent. Part of this is the interconnectedness of everything. If a person cheats on their spouse and doesnt get caught, that doesn't mean that no crime has been committed. But, it might appear that way on the surface. Also, people don't realize the dual nature, the body-soul dynamic that permits subjective interpretation of almost everything. And this subjective interpretation may or may not agree with the concealed inner essence of what each "thing" actually is. And this dual-nature also applies to justice which can also be subjectively interpretted in a way that avoids personal responsibility. But there is a concealed justice being applied which is independent of any subjective avoidance of responsibility. Because it is concealed it's easy to ignore. But, it's happening, and it's usually observable, if people know what to look for. So, people bend the rules, break the rules, rationalize their crimes and ignore consequences. Why? Because they can.

"But with dragons I cannot know if they ride the winds and clouds and ascend to the heavens. Today I met Lao Zi, who is just like a dragon!" Lao Zi is unknowable? It's not even knowable IF they have a domain. So how can it be tracked and pursued? And yet, the author met him. Spontaneously?

I got your point. But that doesn't mean I need to agree with you. And I was making a point too. But that doesn't mean that you need to agree with me. As I said, I will do my best to research the later schools which adopted aspects of Buddhism into their practice to see if non-duality is actually included in daoism. You seemed to agree with me at first, that non-duality is in opposition to daoist teachings, then you changed your mind and editted your post. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing. Misrepresenting a text, though, is wrong. I don't think anyone will disagree that it is wrong to do that. This is a thread in a daoist forum, asking for input on a daoist concept which is bringing together opposing ideas in a positive way. If a person is literally not capable of seeing these opposing forces working together, that means this thread, and perhaps this forum is not a place for them to submit answers, but instead it is place to ask questions and maybe listen to what others have to say. I'm not saying that I have all the answers, nor that I have these ideas mastered. But I am capable of seeing two sides working together with unique qualities. And I think that is a prerequisite for daoist practice. I do not think daoism is a syncretic free-for-all.

Did you look in the shed?

I did. I said I appreciate it. I said it was true and useful. Just not always. But I see no reason to introduce it as daoist.

Maybe, but without dualism there are no patterns, there are no trends, there is no dao. There is no spontaneity. There is no naturalism, there is nothing. The problem is, bringing a text, ignoring what it says, creates a credibility problem. That problem can be remedied in several ways. Either by bringing known good daoist texts that explain non-duality as th ideal ( eventhough lifting it us as an ideal is dualism ), or bringing good thoughtful examples, and concepts just like any other daoist seems to be able to do.

And I propose that all of those are dualist. Especially Buddhism: "the only constant is change". Non-dualism = "nothing changes everything is the same"

And... if we really want to start having fun... even the opposing side is on my team if I consider them a negative-role-model.

Um. I am aware of some crossover and there are later schools which included some aspects of Buddhism. But, non-duality is, as far as I know is a specific philosophy in Hinduism. I am very happy to be corrected. If I were to guess, I would expect that it is the adoption of koans, or koan style teachings, which were included. Anything you can bring to this thread in support of what you're saying would be greatly-greatly appreciated. I'll also see what I can find. I recall reading about the specific schools which incorporated Buddhism into their practice. Maybe I can find some details on what aspects were adopted.

They're not seperate. They are a team!

@ everyone, Something happened with the font on my post to @stirling, that was completely unintended. The editor here in the forum was giving me all sorts of problems. I ended up copying and pasting to another app, then copying it back. Then posting, but, it exploded the font-size. I adjusted it back. It was NOT intended to be as empahtic as it appeared originally.