Daniel

Greetings, In an effort to address and prevent thread derailment, I am starting this thread to collect and respond to questions about me.

When you use Hebrew... it's often wrong. The grammar looks obscure, because you don't know it.

It means that my answer will depend on how you define ritual and magic. In the past, I think, I've seen you use a very broad definition. If you would like me to answer, please be specific. Define ritual. Define magic. Or, if that's too much work, you can try to convince me that you will listen and not misrepresent my words.

Seedless Raspberry

I'll summarize my comments about these first four chapters. The story is simple, the author through a series of events, travels the region in search of Wisdom and secrets from God. During these travels, the author learns of many other practices, but, God blesses him with eventually finding the teacher, the Abra-Melin. The differences between the two translations are minimal in regard to "magical" content. The French translation is more exaggerated and includes hints that this book will help make the person rich. The German version is more pious, and the author instead is seeking Knowledge and Communion, K&C, and they refer to the HGA, the Holy Guardian Angel specifically in these early chapters, but it is missing from the French at this point. For those that are frightened by discussion of demons or evil spirits, this book is probably not for them. The author claims to be able to control them and dominate them. Both versions claim this is part of the true magic, and is necessary. So, those who are afraid, probably shouldn't read further. Other than that, it's clear that the hero of the book, the Abra-Melin is practicing Judaism in the 4th chapter. I think this justifies interpreting the ritual practice included in future pages using Jewish practice and theology. But, I am happy to be shown reason why not, or if there are exceptions to this later in the text. I intend to return to this thread in a week to move on to the next installment, chapters 5-8.

Hello, This thread will be analyzing and discussing the AbraMelin, as it is written, using both the French and German translations. My intention is to complete the entire book in bi-weekly installments. The text will be provided. All are invited to participate, regardless of knowledge, background. I would like this thread to be a place to share. Like a book-club, or, a reading group. Each participant, naturally, will read the text thru the prism of their own culture, beliefs, and experiences. I would like to foster an environment, here, in this thread, which appreciates contrasting views as complimentary. Yes, I will hold myself to these same ideals. In brief, the more, the merrier. Welcome. Archive.org – French Translation: https://archive.org/details/bookofsacredmagi00abra Archive.org – German Translation: https://archive.org/details/abraham-von-worms-georg-dehn-steven-guth-lon-mbook-fiorg If any are having trouble accessing the above translations, please send me a message. I’ll be extracting the text from the pdfs for each installment to facilitate copying, pasting, and discussing the material. About the AbraMelin French translation, Amazon writes: This remarkable grimoire was translated by S.L.M. Mathers from a 15th century French mauscript. This text has had a huge influence on modern ceremonial magic, and has been cited as a primary influence on Aleister Crowley. Abraham of Würzburg, a cabalist and scholar of magic, describes a quest for the secret teachings which culminated in Egypt, where he encountered the magician Abramelin, who taught him his system in detail. The procedure involves many months of purification, followed by the invocation of good and evil spirits to accomplish some very worldly goals, including acquisition of treasure and love, travel through the air and under water, and raising armies out of thin air. It also tells of raising the dead, transforming ones appearance, becoming invisible, and starting storms. The key to this is a set of remarkable magic squares, sigils consisting of mystical words which in most cases can be read in several directions. Of course, these diagrams are said to have no potency unless used in the appropriate ritual context by an initiate. Mathers analyzed these words in an extensive set of notes and gives possible derivations from Hebrew, Greek and other languages. About the AbraMelin German translation, Amazon writes: It is the first modern translation of this critical magical work since S.L. Macgregor Mathers's original translation over 100 years ago. Not only is the language updated, but Georg Dehn, the compiler and editor, has sourced his work from all extant manuscripts, whereas Mathers used just one. The result is a stunning new translation, which has already set the occult world abuzz.

Here's the first four chapters of the German translation. My comments are in blue.

Here's the first four chapters of the French Translation. My comments are in blue.

I have finished my initial reading and evaluation of the first 4 chapters in both the French translation, 3rd edition, and the new German translation. My overall impression so far is that the story told from French translation is more exaggerated and flamboyant. The German translation is more moderate, simple, and somewhat boring. It could be that the publishers of the French translation embellished the story, or that the German translators softened and diminished, or some combination of the two. This could be a function of the linguistic style of the era in which the French was translated as compared to a modern English translation. It could be a cultural / linguistic difference between France and Germany. It also could be that the story was embellished for the French audience at that time, simply for the purpose of enticing the reader, and provoking sales. I am not faulting either translation in this regard. I am only reporting back regarding the style of the text. One way to quantify this "embellishment <<>> simplicity" contrast between the two texts is to compare word count. The French translation is almost exactly 1/3 longer, by word count. The other major difference between the two, that I noticed, in regard to tone: The French version felt very much like a sales pitch. The German version is much more pious, for lack of a better word. The word choices in English, in the French translation ( perhaps it doesn't read this way in the original French ) sounded sleazy when I read them. There are many words trying to convince the reader that the author's motives are only to learn the mysteries of the Lord, but, their desire for profit is peppered through the story here and there. At one point it is clearly stated: "I studied with care how to put to a profitable use what my father had left me after his death". The author rec'd an inheritance, and is trying to look for magical means to increase it. There is also quite a bit of mud slinging at every other type of mystical, spiritual practice. The French translation spends many words trying to convince the reader that those others are nasty and awful. Only this book, ( and maybe it's sequels ) possess the true wisdom teachings for true profit. The German translation, instead, describes the author in much more pious language. They are simply following God's will, and by being in the right place at the right time, poof, they find themself on this voyage around the the region, learning from great mystics, and eventually, they end up with the Abra-Melin. Fear of God, and simplicity, leading a religious life is mentioned in the German, but not the French translation. Following the Talmud is mentioned in the German, but not the French translation. Evil spirits in the French translation are called "unredeemed" spirits in the German translation. However, the stories themself in spite of their different geographic origins, and different language of translation, they do appear to be the same story. In these first four chapters, the author introduces themself to their audience, whom is supposed to be the 2nd son, Lamech, who is getting, the 2nd son's gift, this lesser gift, because the true Kabalah had been given to the first son, Joseph. I'm not kidding, that is the story. These secrets are supposed to help Lamech, even though, its not nearly as amazing as what was given to the first son. This, I think is part of the sales pitch. The author wants the reader to be amazed a what they read in this book, but, also realize that this is not the pinnacle of the author's knowledge. In the story, the author is seeking the true wisdom of God ( the French translation says it's for profit, the German translation says it's for piety ). They travel all over the region, and document their travels. In the French translation there's considerable trash talking about all the other religions. It's rather obnoxious. The worst, in the French translation, is a Rabbi who was mixing with the other religions in the most heinous ways. ( I'm being sarcastic. I don't think they're heinous. ) The German translation softens this. The Rabbi is not practicing the Egyptian religion, he is only looking at Egyptian images. But, either way, the story is the same in both. Eventually, by the grace of God, the author ends up with a very wise and capable individual, in Egypt, who is named the AbraMelin, or AbraMelim. And that is the content of the 4th chapter. The author meets the Abra-Melin who agrees to initiate him into his mystery school. The initiation process is identical, as far as I can tell between the two translations. As I mentioned in another thread, the details of this initiation permit deducing the intended religious background and practice of this man called: "Abra-Melin". This is important, because, later, the Abra-Melin will be giving instructions, for a ritual. The ritual will be in the Abra-Melin's religion. It is clear. The AbraMelin is practicing Judaism, keeping the Jewish Sabbath, and considers the Psalms significant. Each and every element of the initiation ritual has Jewish significance. Everything coming the the Aber-Melin, any teachings, practices, and rituals which are documented in this book, really needs to be looked at from a Jewish perspective just as a practical matter. Again, it is not a judgement of better, or worse. It is not a judgement of origins or roots of the instructions, techniques and principles of Jewish Kabalah. It is simply that the author is writing about a person practicing Judaism, so, understanding the details of their instructions needs to be done through a Jewish lens. The last thing I'll mention in this post is that in spite of the apparent contradiction, both translations strongly prohibit making any profit from the utilization of the secrets of the book. This is a direct contradiction to what the author writes of their own motives in the French translation. I'm not sure what to make of this, other than the author changing their motives after their journeying and finally meeting the Abra-Melin. Naturally, this is not a problem in the German translation which does not the depict the author in that way. In the following posts I'll provide my notes for the first four chapters as well as the text of these chapters which I extracted from the PDFs. If there is any discussion of specific passages, this will be useful to facilitate quoting. All in all, these 4 chapters are not controversial. It's a simple story. Nothing much has happened yet. The scene is set. The chapters are short. It's quick and easy reading. I'll move on to the next 4 chapters in a week. Meanwhile, I look forward to reading any comments, insights about the text from others if there are any.

See below: Nungali, this thread is not about me. See below: Nungali, naturally, I am not going to answer personal questions from you. You have a history of sarcastic, rude, inflammatory, insulting, misrepresentations of me and what I write. I have started a thread for your questions. See below. If you want me to answer your questions, about me, in a forth coming manner: Be specific. Convince me that you will not misrepresent what I've written. Convince me that you'll believe what I write about myself and my experiences.

Define magic. Define ritual.

I skimmed chapter 4 of the German translation. I do not see anything overtly demonic. The first example constructs a square using the word "moreh", which means, simply, "teacher". The most destructive operation in manual, that I saw, was: "making adults of children ill". This, like almost everything, can be used for help or for harm. Questions: Is there a demonic talisman in the German translation? Have you compared both translations? Are the conclusions, leading questions, which you are posting based only on the French translation? If so, why? Thank you,

" ... in the third book ... " That's the French translation. What is in the German translation? Elisha, Elijah's disciple, raised a dead body, in the Hebrew bible. It wasn't demonic ( in the way most people imagine demons. ) Point of clarification: Ezechi'el is an angel-name, not a demon-name.

Thank you. I liked the write-up, but, when the text is quoted, it would be good to either: post both translations side-by-side type a general comparison or the two Example: "Mather's translation: paraphrased: X, Y, and Z. VonWorms translation: paraphrased: P, D, and Q. Here's how they are similar. Here's how they are different." clearly list which translation is being quoted In the above quotes, based in the type-set and formatting, you have brought the Mathers translation, only.

Let's discuss it in context. On which page is this "demonic talisman"?

This thread is not about me. If we were friends, I would be more likely to answer personal questions, but, I am confident anything I share about myself will be misrepresented. Regardless, what I write should be able to stand on its own merit. I do not need to lean on credentials or claimed experiences.

Thank you for your heart-felt concern. Yes. I am aware. I am not, in any way, working with "the princes of hell". The book is written; I'm seeing questions and comments about it on multiple forums. Good people. Seeking communion and knowledge from a guardian angel ( which some refer to as their higher selves ). If this text is dangerous, it is my opinion, the right thing to do is: open up the book, read it, and discuss it openly and honestly. The text is already public and popular ( in certain circles ). There's no benefit avoiding it.

I am using the Mather's translation 3rd edition. There is a link on page 1, 1st post.

Let's discuss it in context.

I'm not going to argue. We have both given our opinion. Readers can decide. ^^ your opinion ^^ A Hebrew/English dictionary. "קטר - crown or summit" is not in the dictionary. Scroll up and down to see for yourself.

Vocally: it is pronounced kee-yuh-tair Emphasis on the first syllable. KֶֶֶֶֶEE-y'tair. Written: Don't forget the 'yud'. קיטר Correspondence: grinding of incense ; rising smoke and falling ash

First, thank you for pointing this out. The Mather's translation botched the transliteration of the demon's name. Because of Mather's mistake ( or the editors ) a false correspondence has been made. Readers don't know Hebrew so they don't notice the mistake. The editors must not have known Hebrew so they don't notice it either. קיטר = a type of demon כתר = crown ִ כתר =/= ק'טר demon =/= crown ...here? I have knowledge which is needed for properly understanding this book. Without being able to read Hebrew, the reader will not know that Page 119 is transliterated wrong. If those names are important to a reader, they will not be getting accurate information without someone like me reading the book with them. I think readers will appreciate what I can bring to this discussion. This is one small example of what could be a whole host of translation and transliteration errors in the Mathers translation. Thank you.

119. Thank you. The transliteration is wrong. The transliteration on page 119 is KThR. כתר Keser - Crown. Formally, kuf is transliterated as 'Q', and 'Th' is a tav lacking a dagesh.

The most common word for demon is שד, "Shaid". Here is a link to a list. The closest is קטב. A pestilence. קטר is not a demon. However, there is a story in the talmud where someone raised smoke from incense to a demon. It's in the list. https://www.sefaria.org/search?q=demon&tab=text&tpathFilters=Reference%2FDictionary%2FJastrow|Reference%2FDictionary%2FKlein Dictionary&tvar=1&tsort=relevance&svar=1&ssort=relevance Keetair, to rise smoke ( burn incense ) to a demon. It is not a demon itself.

The word for crown, in this context, is Keter ( pronounced Keser ). It's easy to confuse, because even-though they are spelled differently; phonetically, they're identical.. Keter is familar, for many, because it is the 1st of the sephirot. Spelling it properly is important, because, the iconography resonates with the meaning, the "energy", for lack of better words. ק, Kuf, the first letter, doesn't fit for a crown, because, energetically, kuf "bounces up and down like a monkey". This "up/down" is present in the iconography, and executed by the scribe when they are putting quill to parchment. In the word Ketores, the Kuf conveys the simultaneous upward smoke and downward ash. This doesn't fit for "crowning" or ascending a summit. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/137091/jewish/Kuf.htm