helpfuldemon

That depends. If it involves self sacrifice, I usually feel pained. I'm a bit of a stoic though.

I don't help people to feel good, I do it because it's the right thing to do.

And do you think his influence on the counter culture has made things better, or worse? Sexual promiscuity has risen, drug use has risen, breeding single parent homes and abortion. Who knows how it affected crime and violence.

Do what thou wilt is the freedom to use free will to gain experiences, with the hope that it builds wisdom. It is the door to opening new things available to mankind to do.

Don't ask, it's a neurotic concept. Just do what you believe you should do, monitor the results and make adjustments to your actions according to the outcome.

I don't really care for arguing with Nungali about my interpretation of free will and True Will. At this point I could probably repeat what he says and he'd still say I was wrong.

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You like to ignore the obvious, because your bias and supposed expertise won't let you see the bigger picture of what liberty allows us.

Worldly initiations aren't the same thing as Divine ones. Sorry, but you weren't chosen.

This sounds an AWFUL LOT like an exercise in free will

You seem to miss the point I am trying to make. You take the perspective that True Will is to become something, and I say it is to do something, for certainly, "Do What Thou Wilt" is the credo that is under investigation. Your take on things is that Crowley is saying if you find yourself, you can do no wrong, and therefor you are free to do what you will, because it is morally and personally correct for you. I am arguing the particulars of what we can do, should or should not do. But then, this would lead to creating restrictions, and that isn't what Crowley wanted, for it would inhibit Will. I guess I come from a different school.

I find this to be very accurate. Initiation isn't for the weak or feint of heart. It is painful and depressing and torturous. You also have to have your Will and intention perfected, which isn't easy, can take years. Can't be distracted by worldly things, though the world is your concern. Once your Will and intention are perfected, they will call on you. I don't know if it is necessary to be initiated, only that it does occur and that it is a lengthy process of moral purification and philosophical perfection. It isn't a path to riches, and in fact, it isn't a path to fame. It is a path to understanding. You will probably witness many supernatural events that defy logic and science. These teachers do not verbally instruct; they inflict madness and leave you to your own devices. In the end, you will probably have lost everything in this pursuit, and have nothing to show for it but your own understanding, and even then there is no guarantee that you will understand, for God is vast and many layered, and His motives can be suspect.

So give me some examples of True Will. What is beyond the egotistical personality?

There is a lot of information about supernatural powers and people, and lots of practices that go towards secret powers for the practitioner. Isolated, a person only has so much ability to change their surroundings via a magical way. It is madness to speculate upon the nature of these things because it is purely hypothetical, and the results are often hard to prove and examine. Still, we like to be creative, and we like to believe in magic. I propose that aside from the meager personal power people possess to affect things magically, there are Gods and spirits that will aid us in our quest for what we desire. I declare this practice to lead to neurosis, but I also believe that it is real. The simple fact is that if you have enough assets (looks, money, creativity, intelligence, strength), it is a simple matter of just asking for what you want, and you don't need to turn to supernatural forces to aid you. So what causes do these Gods and spirits support? I think much of it is personal desire, but the cause has to be harmless or just in order to attain aid. Where does mysticism lead us to? It should lead us to a larger project of aiding mankind. The petty desires of a personal magician are like practice projects. The greater good is what the Gods look to see that you desire, and should your desire be high, the odds of assistance is greater. In my life I have seen many things that I declared needed doing occur, and I don't think it was coincidence. I began my mystical practice with small things like luck, or love chasing. This refined my Will to understanding the virtues of love and kindness and generosity. When I had matured, I was contacted by a God and I declared my Will for power. I don't advise doing this. It has been a hardship and destructive. Better to avoid the supernatural and find another means of finding power.

The point of the GD, and Magick, is to educate ones self to the point where you are no longer performing acts that go against your self. It is the hope that the candidate enlightens themselves, and that if all people do it, then an end to ignorance. It is an alternative to religion. Why did we need an alternative? Because people believed the religions to be too restrictive or incomplete in knowledge. If one follows Christianity, they find that there is no defense against Evil. The Jews and the Muslims at least believe in punishment and retaliation. So does Thelema. The GD doesn't really address these issues, but one could suppose that as the magician climbs their school they realize that they need to act against ignorance. What is ignorance? It is when a person harms another person unjustly. People object to my declaring Thelema to be about free will probably because they see it as justifying ignorant action. That isn't what I am doing, but knowing that free will exists enlightens me to realize that people do ignorant things, and that the only one to stop them is us. So what is the hope of Thelema? It was to create mini enlightenments, and perhaps a new system that makes sense for the new Age of freedom that magicians hope for. We want to be free to do what needs to be done for the advancement of happiness and the human race. The history of mankind is filled with unjust actions and wars, but in order to advance a society that has its hand on innovation, they have happened, another reason why the Law is Do What Thou Wilt. Crowley hoped that if all people did their Will, and knew what they were doing, that there would be harmony. That is ridiculous. There is no stopping ignorance, for all people are at any level of understanding and desire, and all people will find a way to do what they believe needs to be done. Championing liberty that is just is a good start to where Thelema comes in, but this idea that there is a True Will to each individual just promotes the idea of free will; there has to be One Will that is just. As I said, all Will is True until the doer disproves it to themselves, and all people will disagree with just action because we vary so much in knowledge and desire. The most we can hope from Magick is that we will open doors to what is just in the name of liberty, and one day all people will be on the same page as far as what we are able to do that is fair.

Every Will is True, until you realize it's not. When you come to the point of knowing no further truth, then you could say you have True Will, but to someone else, it might be false action. Who is to say what is "True Will"? Will is what we believe, and so if your beliefs are in line with what you are doing, it is True. Now, if you adopt Crowley's morality system, then you see that liberty is the rule for his morals, and so you could say that any Will that allows for liberty is True, hence you have free will. There are probably things he would advise against doing, but as a Neophyte, we are free to do what we will to learn our Wills. Where does he draw the line with action? He said "The word of Sin is restriction". So what can't we do with our Will? IDK, but if love is the law, then I'd say that anything that harms or is against love is a Sin, but then you'd wind up with Christianity, and he hated Christianity. So where does Crowley draw the line? I don't think he did, or does. I think if it is your Will, you are free to do it, and thus, there is no True Will, other than the self imposed restrictions we place upon ourselves.

See, no one has been able to contradict what I say here. If there is such a thing as "True Will", then there is only One Will, and if there is One Will, then all those that know it will act the same, and that isn't how Crowely presents it. If there isn't One Will, then there are a plethora of Will, and that means free will prevails, for every person has their own Will, and does what they will.

You keep saying "True Will" and I keep saying free will. So tell me, how do you find this elusive "True Will"? How is it different from free will? What tools did Crowely give us to find the "True Will"? And, if there is a "True Will", how can there be any individuality? For if there was a "True Will", then certainly all would act accordingly.

I have finally finished my comprehension of religion. I have studied what I could of Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Thelema, and have concluded that all are valid. I believe we need Christianity more than anything, because our God does what He desires, and we are not meant to comprehend Him. I believe He is fair and that we all have a place in Heaven. I believe we need Saints to intercede for mercy, I believe Jesus is Holy, I believe we have free will to do what we will, and that we are free to love who we will, how we will, and why we will. I believe that mankind has a lesson to learn about killing, and I think that the liberal Democrats have it right. I pray for us, because my study indicates the end times are upon us, but only God will know that hour. Pray for me as I pray for you, my friends, and find love where you can, Amen.

The essence of Crowley's religion is free will. It's really that simple; we are free to be and to do and to think and to feel what we like, and to react according to how that makes us believe. We are free to fight for our beliefs, I assume that he took a page from the beloved Jews and Christians that fought and killed for their religion and values. People say "Look what so and so did in the name of their faith" Thelema is no different in text. People in a Democracy are trying to avoid this though; there is a new current of morality. But I'm not here to talk about the liberals, I want to address the God fearing people of Earth. History, and personal experience, shows that God will do that which He will do, for His own reasons, and He will put us through what He wants to, for He is God. We need someone like Jesus, born to mankind, tempted by man and God, to learn what it is like for us, for God does not know. We need that intercession for the sake of earning God's mercy. You may call this God illogical, or a demon, and that wouldn't be far off, for we want a God that makes sense and cares, but who can limit God and His Will towards Creation? So what we are left with is the science of kindness and obedience in the form of Christianity, and it would be well advised to plead with God for mercy for yourself, and for all of us. We are free, we can do what we will, and God will do the same; supporting or opposing those He watches.

Maybe you aren't ready to ascend? Or maybe you chose to stay and help.

Will is something beyond intelligence. It is above the mind, and below it. Crowley wanted us to be uninhibited, acting out of instinct, like an animal does. This is not a cult of philosophy, or a church of Wisdom. There are no laws here. The mind is developed through other means. Damn because! The word of sin is restriction! So how do you get to know your true will? Experimentation. Remember that this is the law of the strong, and the conqueror. The joy of success shall be your proof! Do what thou wilt, achieve! Let God sort out whether you were good.

You would think it would be simple to act with love. Doing things out of love, if love is the law. But if the law is freedom, then we don't have to act with love, do we? We are free to act with whatever Will we desire. But we don't all agree on what a loving act is, do we? Some people think tough love is the way to go, while others believe it is kindness and generosity. Crowely called Nietzsche a Saint, and Nietzsche believed we like adversity, to be denied things, and to be forced to earn them to prove to ourselves our strength and dominance. If the law is do what thou wilt, then we don't have to act out of love. We can act out of greed and selfishness.

Gods Will cannot be to love and to be free, for both don't fit together perfectly. It is either one or the other; love cannot be the law if the law is do what thou wilt.

Yes, I am in that camp now too, though I still wonder what acts of God happen.