TranquilTurmoil

I figured that my advice/perspective was at best a stepping stone, and at worst not correct. However, didn’t Liu YiMing use the book of changes (yi jing)? Was the the “destiny of heaven” to be disregarded altogether or was it to be transcended eventually/ultimately? What does this mean in practical terms. I have no experience or really even exposure to nei dan, and I may only be asking from an intellectual perspective as I’m willing myself toward Buddhism more these days, but then again, who knows?

In my understanding of heaven and earth from my study of the Yi Jing (which I’m not using anymore) is that Heaven/Earth the Creative/Receptive are complements. The good student emulates earth (and heaven at times?) and receives direction and blessings from heaven. Being receptive, open, “empty” , one follows the will of heaven and embodies it in the world of form. I don’t know if this answers questions about the internal qualities of yin and yang and if yin has a place in later stages of development. But you certainly make use of both yin and yang on the path although the tendency is to sort of “make room” for yang. Limited knowledge, limited perspective of course.

I can’t really discern skillful means from natural impulses to make light of something… I ll give you the benefit of the doubt. However, the people in the hospital who indulged and/or made a mockery of the Obama fantasy were the staff who wanted to enjoy a laugh for themselves, or would rationalize that they were either trying to or actually helping my roommate by doing so. The only person who actually tried to help him were his social worker and one staff member who spoke Spanish… they did their best to talk to him where he was and give him whatever practical advice they could. I don’t think us generating a laugh at his perception of reality is going to instill a similar effect in him. In which case the benefit/merit of generating a laugh loses its value and or becomes corrupted. I know I’m being a Debbie downer but I ve seen this before and I don’t question people’s conscious intention but rather their situational awareness. Maybe I’m not one to do that… but my intuition seems to think it’s important 🤷🏼‍♂️

Right... But genuine cultivators shouldnt laugh at the suffering of others (I think.) And the most helpful approach to treat delusion is compassionate concern. If that fails all you can do is empathize and/or disengage. Just my 2 cents

When my roommate who only spoke Spanish realized people were mocking the notion that he was Barack Obama, it was pretty hard to separate that from mocking him too. Either way it led to alienation and increased mania, depression, hostility

As someone who has had my own temporary breaks from consensus reality as well as reality and spent 3 years in a psychiatric institution where people believed anything from believing they were Barack Obama to God.... It isn't a laughing matter. And that's the natural tendency.

I don't think mocking this guy is compassion. This is a serious situation even if it isn't fixable.

Intellectual speculation has many pitfalls… however it can be a very serious obstacle (from what I gather) to think a practicioner has completed their journey before they have. So it’s probably important to clarify in certain circumstances? 🤷🏼‍♂️ I also recognize it’s not really necessarily beneficial or “right” to debate across different traditions… so hopefully everyone is respectful and discerning in doing so.

I think your quote as apropos to what I posted to an extent, but my intention wasn’t to negate the Clarity aspect/the awakened mind, but more to express that I think there is good reason to believe that awakening to Self-nature is not the last step on the journey. I certainly find the last line In your quote poignant.

Spontaneously stumbled into Chan Master Sheng Yen's commentary on Song of Mind.... It seems relevant to the discussion.

I don’t want to push this too hard or too far but here is a perspective from the Theravada tradition from a respected Theravada teacher (of which I am not a part): tps://tricycle.org/magazine/we-are-not-one/ His perspective appears to me to be in stark opposition to Mahayana Buddhist perspective and he is highly informed and experienced in his tradition. If Buddhists can’t even agree on what’s what then it’s hard to fathom how all traditions agree on ultimate “reality “ and are just too sectarian to realize that they do 🤷🏼‍♂️

In my knowledge of Buddhism, Buddhism actually denies a creator. In Theravada/the Pali Canon, I believe the Buddha states that the Universe has no discernible beginning, that no one can pinpoint the origin in Samsara. The other explanation which seems to be rooted in Mahayana (or possibly Vajrayana) belief, that everything comes from Shunyata (emptiness)... and by some sort of cosmic misfortune from what I discern? That emptiness started grasping at itself, thus becoming individualized, and eventually going through the "Six realms" all the way from heaven, down through the human/earthly existence, all the way to the lower realms (and hopefully back again!). This is my understanding of Buddhist metaphysics/origin theory, thought it might clarify.

This is what always confounds me... that the belief or perception that the ultimate understanding is always the same... i cannot seem to reconcile this with what I have come across practicing and studying as I have. I don't think that most Buddhist teachers I have read or even spoken to seem to think the Nibbana of an arhat is the same as the Nirvana of a bodhisattva/buddha. Then there are Mahayanaists who deny that the Nibbana of an arhat is even an eternal, enduring condition... and some profound teachers/masters who teach this, too. At best, it seems that there is no consensus among Enlightened teachers that all enlightenment/gnosis is the same. But that's okay, I think what's most important is being respectful, tolerant and wise in discussing comparative mysticism/spiritual practices and allowing for multiplicity.

What is recommended? (Respectfully)

As someone who has tried to embody the aimless method for 8 years (while still having guiding goals), I can speak to pros and cons I have noticed in it in myself in others. In defense of soto zen/Caodong school of Chan, "Just Sitting"/Silent Illumination is a powerful practice and may not need supplemental meditation practices... not fully sure. However, I find the Noble Eightfold Path and the notion of Gradual Cultivation/Sudden Awakening often get lost in how it is presented... with it essentially being reduced to a Noble Onefold Path of aimless meditation. The notion of non-seeking and not needing to look externally or forcibly looking internally can be a powerful skillful means... but i think it can also lead the practicioner astray. Those are my initial thoughts on this conversation and debate... My experience certainly doesn't negate Soto Zen and non-doing, but I certainly see the value of gradual cultivation with doing, method, intent. And in my experience of attempting to practice doing non-doing... there is plenty of internal effort that goes on in that process.

Thought I’d share I’m in the process of trying to getting help. Idk how much I’m gonna post on these threads but I appreciate everyone’s concern and goodwill.

For the duration of all but the first few months of my path I ve thrown the pursuit of happiness to the wind. But now I feel lost… even as I’m on the right track (I believe) towards cultivation and service. The path of aimlessness and no-goal is lonely and burdensome. How does one negate the ego while adequately nourishing the spirit? If you do your best to let go of your desires and still haven’t arrived at enduring serenity… do you just keep going? Taking over/charge doesn’t seem to ever help… and passive waiting is unsatisfactory. It would be one thing if I felt I was seeking irreversible transcendence, but I’m actually seeking unwavering immersion and the connection and compassion that comes with it. But when the only ppl who reciprocate in your life are your family, your Internet forum sangha of two weeks, a best friend that doesn’t want to be more than friends, and a lovely handful of retired zen center hippy do-gooders…. What’s the inspiration to be self-sacrificing other than to uphold your vows and honor your ancestors? I’m healing and losing heart, grateful and jaded, finding my way but resisting that it isn’t matching my hopes and expectations. (I know hope and expectation are hindrances and delusions… but only realized beings are potentially without hindrance and delusion) maybe some of you will have helpful insights and prescient wisdom. With all the tension in this post bordering on negstivity I think I’m gonna give myself a luminous. Spacious, warm hug… and not expect an easy or satisfying answer. 🤷🏼‍♂️🤗🤷🏼‍♂️

Suffering and hope In the midst of crisis There was paralysis In the midst of paralysis All one can do is pray And never relinquish “hope” In the face of disappointment All one can do is let go When does not know how to let go All one can do is surrender When one’s refuges are exhausted One turns to the clouds But the rain comes in it’s own time And all we can do is pray to maintain patience And not collapse

I had been doing three prostrations twice a day or so and found it very beneficial. I also used to join my Muslim friend (who lost his son/my friend to suicide) in prayer/prostration on the occasions I’d spend a day or two with him… while I wouldn’t pray the way he did or to the same Deity (I imagine) we both really appreciated the shared experience and I would embody the same gesture and physical form of prostration. It seems to be hard on my knees and my quite damaged feet (that seem to gradually recover with rest). I also have a hard time with a routine prostration practice because I prefer to do it with proper intention or motives than as part of a regular daily “ritual”. Thought I would share and if anyone has feedback or recommendations I ll think it over 🙏🏼

So I’m not going to give this thread a ton of background or introduction… I’m seeking to clarify certain things about the higher bhumis… i read the lankavatara sutra about 6-10 months ago and it was my first introduction to the “Cloud Stages” (Bhumis 9+10) … in understanding this, does the bodhisattva dwell in a pure land/Buddha field while manifesting an emanation to a different/lower realm? my motivation for asking this is because as I return to well-being and move towards contentment i think it would provide me solace if there was a hope/promise/destiny of salvation for those who see the path to fruition. I have been a bit confused if samsara is endless for the bodhisattva or if there is a temporary melding of samsara and Nirvana or if there is a lasting Nirvana for the bodhisattva who then in turn “manifests” or “emanates “ to connect and help other beings. 🙏🏼☁️☀️⭕️

My favorite (deceased) Chan teacher, Sheng-Yen… in his books he talks about resolving to put an end to birth and death while emphasizing the importance and sincerity of the bodhisattva vows. That’s why I think it’s helpful to have the promise of oasis while abandoning the active pursuit of oasis … The advice people tend to give me is to take it one step at a time and to embody wisdom in the here and now. That is certainly good advice but it feels like supplementing it with a promise not of a reward but of a lasting fruit of practice would help both bring me solace and inspire me to drop my worries.

Well from what I ve read, it’s only when we truly surrender any hope of gain or territory that the path opens up… and I have read both the path is something with a beginning, a middle, and an end and that the path is endless ….so I feel a nuanced perspective is one that let’s go of a hope or longing for any near-term graspable permanence… while also resting in the solace of a lasting salvation that comes of its own accord at some future time. I recognize the possibility for a stable realization of emptiness in this life… but as I have suffered tremendous pains to get to not even that realization, the prospect of doing this more than a handful of times without long-term relief seems like quite the mountain to repeatedly climb. That’s why I’m curious about the cloud stages because while the bhumis 8 and 9 are not considered buddhahood in Mahayana or Vajrayana they are considered to be irreversible liberation (8th) and I don’t know what I remember about the 9th except that there where emanations come in to play. as far as the bodhisattva vow, I don’t think I ve ever really taken the traditional 4 great vows except as a communal chant/recitation. However I have sincerely vowed to see the path to fruition (whatever that may be) and relatedly to not “cash out” but to serve where I’m needed as long as is necessary and beneficial and required of me. Hope that makes more sense 🙏🏼

Hey. To clarify, I don’t want to set a lofty goal of parinirvana and set out to work towards it as much as this thread and a lot of my threads try to make sense of If there is a definitive and semi-final light at the end of the tunnel… or am I/we potentially bound to cycles of suffering and temporary salvation? I’m not fixated on it at the moment I just think it would be a boon to hear that there is a liberation available to folks like me and you (even if it is 40 years or 2 lifetimes down the road). Cause if the bodhisattva path is just endless service (and I know you think the vow is much more important when the goal is within reach) it seems much more daunting. i find the purpose of the vow/aspiration/commitment at my stage of the path serving the function of surrendering boundaries/control/self-interest. I’m trying to simultaneously lead myself to the conclusion that there is nothing to hold on to and that after the long journey there is a transcendent refuge (that doesn’t leave behind the world entirely). I have interpreted non-abiding Nirvana and the heart sutra as states that a bodhisattva experiences living on earth… which upon reconsideration doesn’t seem like it hits the mark.

The patients have taken over the asylum! They abolished the prohibition on cigarette smoking and are demanding a 4 oz Ice cream cup with every meal!!!!

Maybe we oughta clarify the “clarity aspect”