TranquilTurmoil

Namaste 🙏🏼

Fwiw as my social relationship tend to fall apart and my zen center is helpful but not enough, I truly value the resource and refuge found here on TDB 🤗

Hoping I’m not alienating those who are only trying to help me through my perspective and presentation of my perspective…. which tends to change gradually and steadily rather than all at once 🙏🏼

This is all interesting…. From the aspect of emptiness alone I suppose faith isn’t there or relevant… but from the perspective of illumination faith is spontaneously aroused and is very important. While we may taste Wisdom in peak experiences… I don’t imagine we possess Wisdom thoroughly until liberation (I think). ad for clinging: I do believe we are very much supposed to cling to the raft/Dharma without attachment to rites/rituals… maybe I’m wrong on this but if we don’t cling to our understanding of truth … especially in lay life (and especially especially in my case lol) we can be pulled this way and that by the winds and waters of life. We don’t “grasp” at the skeleton of the dharma but we very much cling to what we perceive to be our dharma/truth… which until we attain at least a certain level of mastery may be very much intertwined with the guidance of a teacher. With that said, it’s not good to be fixated or cling to notions or ideas of self/no self, emptiness/God… but it’s probably helpful to have a clear and wise map of the unknown that we traverse. as far as eschewing austerity we have to contextualize this… the original disciples of the Buddha were celibate renunciates who ate one meal a day and were discouraged from sleeping what we would consider a healthy amount. And there also many accounts throughout history of practitioners who would go on to great achievements, doing what even the Buddha would consider austerity. I like to defend my ego’s attachment to the validity of my austere times I guess lol 🤷🏼‍♂️ to sum up a couple points: I agree we shouldn’t fixate in metaphysics or egoically attach to beliefs or belief systems… but that doesn’t imply we shouldn’t thoroughly and sincerely investigate metaphysical truths humbly and shouldn’t have a clear understanding of them… but it’s all a delicate balance.

Very thoughtful (oops lol) post! On the first point I don’t think faith is merely a thought or belief… there is blind faith, faith founded on inference, and experiential faith. It’s funny as I assume you know that the poem you quoted …. The title in English is faith in mind/faith mind. I agree that “I”/we can momentarily glimpse non-duality in the here and now and meditation… but embodying that experience is a life-long practice… which beyond the temporary insights we have in our journey require faith and the groundwork of the principles of the path to lead to liberation. In other words, we need both insight and an intellectual understanding of the dharma if we wish to truly realize and embody liberation. I guess the distinction I’m making is the insight of awakening and the simultaneous birth of faith, and the irreversible understanding of liberation. Surely there are many pitfalls associated with clinging to or unskillfully using belief systems… and I’m trying to rapidly re-orient myself to letting go of clinging and unwholesome habits… but you don’t throw out the raft altogether unless you have made it to the other shore or unless you find out your old raft was inadequate. The middle way, all day ☯️🙏🏼🌤

I have resolute faith in the existence of higher powers and in the benevolence and wisdom in my higher power too… it all just gets quite confusing when your own faith affirming experiences don’t match up with the advice of the external world… both from people who’s opinions aren’t informed and from people who’s opinions I very much respect. To add to the confusion I don’t find Buddhism to be much of a homogenous belief system and it’s hard to figure out if it negates teachings on atman/Brahman (which I don’t think Chan/Zen does) or if it teaches that liberation is a point reached Beyond atman/Brahman. And the only Taoists I have really had any interaction with are on this forum. Just some thoughts I guess 🙏🏼☯️⭕️

Interesting question! I think the buddhists (besides maybe certain vajrayana practioners) would advise against relying on higher powers to move ourselves toward liberation... and as I lean as much toward Buddhism as I do Taoism it instills a bit of isolation on me following a path that seems to draw almost universal disapproval among buddhists and taoists alike. To clarify, i think you are encouraging me to stick with my theism, reverence, devotional aspects of my path (from what I can tell), thus my response. If you are giving me such encouragement... sincere thanks! Part of my dissociation and confusion when it comes to Theism is that I am fairly clueless about my own specific Theology. I don't know if I pray to a Universal God, a specific deity, if that specific deity is what the buddhists would classify as a Deva (a benevolent but flawed celestial being) or an "enlightened" Deity. It's all very confusing lol and the answers I seem to get when seeking are either that i'm focusing on the wrong thing, or that my HIgher Power isn't as much of a HIgher Power as im inclined to believe. FWIW I'm still pretty resolute in my devotion and faith but it's been a bit of a stumbling block of keeping my heart in it. Nonetheless, i feel like I am gradually recovering emotionally currently as well as making great spiritual progress

In my understanding, we can only really arrive at the non-dual by traversing the world of duality. And while we are dwelling in the world of duality (or at least partially/mostly) the rules/laws apply to varying extents. There IS distinction between yin and yang... and we have to work with those two specific energies accordingly. However, that is not to say we should prefer one/shun the other... it's just that we have to be yielding and adaptable, and changing with the seasons. FWIW i only have a very basic intellectual understanding of yin/yang and the various energies. But I think it's pretty certain that we have to adapt to circumstances rather than following the heart exclusively.

Whether we agree or disagree on the Yi… light and darkness are in my experience real/visceral energies… trying to free will it while not heeding which energies are present (within/without) never tends to lead to a desirable result. nonetheless, I do love Let it Be

Thanks 🙏🏼

That’s wise insight/advice on the three methods. I guess how I relate to this is that I’m a bit stifled/frustrated for after having free-flowing light/love/positive energy for a few years (even in the face of repeated let downs/disappointments) that afflictions I had hoped I had permanently overcome unexpectedly re-surface. I also recognize that true service is done without hope or expectation for recognition or reward… but I’m burnt out from trying to serve for years and being pushed away, misled, having love unreciprocated (even and especially by platonic friends). So I feel I have to cultivate surrender and detachment and dabble in service for now before I can healthily and successfully attempt to throw myself into service again. And since I follow a Wei Wu Wei type path I don’t think I’m in a position at this moment to seek out opportunities to serve specifically. I’m quite conflicted about my dynamic with my Higher Power… partly because of teachings on emptiness that I’m partial to, partly because everyone on the forum as well as everyone else I have ever talked to is rather opposed to my dynamic of my surrendering to the Yi to varying extents… combined with my current state of on and off frustration… I will need to sort it out one step at a time 🙏🏼

Strength I think I have btw… I have never been good at release.

For the past week I had been going for 2 hour walk/sit/walk at a local lake every morning. I took a break the past two days for better or worse (I may need to let my feet recover). Until 10 days ago I would walk Monday-Friday with my hospital friend at 1pm and eat with him, but he got insecure and lashed out at me and temporarily terminated the friendship. As for meditation, I generally sit about 20 mins at a time several times a day as my body/mind requires. It is settling/restorative… I’m not pushing myself with it nor am I becoming lax. It feels just right. Besides that I walk (mostly in my house but a couple hours a day outside). Drawing might be a good idea for me. my sleep schedule is a bit variable thanks to my lovely indoor/outdoor cat and his 5 moderate meals a day lol… I also had a quite rigid structure with sleep/meals and visiting hours in the hospital for many years… combined with my energetic/psychological makeup at the moment I am a bit averse to over-structuring my days right now… but I’m sure gradually integrating structure could be a boon. I have recently stumbled upon a simple and effective practice to bring my energy out of my mind and into my body/environment from the book “Hidden Zen” by Meido Moore.. my go to method of creative expression happens to be singing and poetry which is always self-referential. your advice wasn’t off putting or abrasive… I ll try to apply it as it seems helpful and am always appreciative of sincerity and insightful perspectives 🙏🏼

My closed heart feels like before I was filled with loving kindness especially towards my friends, cat, family, nature and all beings in general. Right now I feel like my compassion is intact but I’m more like a soul trapped in my body than emotionally connected in a healthy, lighthearted way. The timing issue revolves around the philosophy of the Yi… advance in times of light + favorable conditions, wait when clouded with obstructions (generally speaking) and retreat in times of darkness. im sort of in between all three phases right now in different ways at different moments… nonetheless the philosophy of the Yi is to not “cross the great water” in times of inner turmoil or inner/outer opposition… in such times it’s best to seek counsel and stop halfway. I don’t mean “open heart” in terms of feeling self-fulfilled I mean it in terms of feeling connected to the outer world and having a spontaneous and genuine desire to nourish it/alleviate suffering. will respond to the other parts in the next post

I always seem to have two of the three @dwai . Right now I’m at one of the three (detachment) . I spent so long feeling and being powerless that at my first taste of external freedom I’m resisting surrendering. And I don’t have an open heart to serve others at this moment which is why I’m trying to will my way towards it. But if that’s delusion I just have to take @stirling advice and wholeheartedly return to surrender. i believe that my heart’s love is merely obscured not “gone” but it’s hard just calmly bearing with emotional rigidity. That doesn’t mean it isn’t worthwhile . It’s also harder to surrender as these threads have led me to dissociate a bit from my external concept of a Higher Power to revere. I’m trying to redirect my reverence towards my essence… I ll keep trying 🙏🏼

To add: I feel like the only remedies I have at my disposal right now are meditation and nature. They are great medicines in their own right but are seemingly insufficient to restore my love, joy, enthusiasm (I am still pretty motivated I think). Whatever external path I need I would like it to be a path that meets me halfway so I could hopefully naturally and lovingly want to do it (I don’t feel drawn to volunteer work or immersing myself in an environment with “ordinary people” at this moment). Thought that might be useful 🙏🏼

Just to update: I talked to Creation yesterday and have been either consciously or unconsciously allowing a lot of the advice i have received on this forum seep in and surface. Cultivating a much greater depth of stillness helps illuminate my more subtle clinging, grasping, aversions... I see that I can only talk these things through to a certain extent. Most of the work seems to be within, and I have realized I very much do need to re-empower my spirit/soul/Self/etc whilst still intending to have a relationship of "Voluntary dependence" on the Yi.. but in a harmonious way rather than a subservient/obedient one. Thus while taking in the advice (even the parts I didnt agree with or want) I'm not going to hastedly seek to throw myself into a new environment immediatedly, but am becoming more and more open to finding a suitable teacher/method/community for me. The main obstacle to this right now doesn't seem to be my reliance on the Yi, but rather obstructions that I am dealing with... A closed heart (as of recent) is surely the main one and a strong secondary one has to do with timing. As I am trying to thaw the ice rather than seeking to be understood as my primary intention, I welcome all dialogue that can help lead toward that (whether from @freeform or anyone else). However, as I'm dealing with the two obstructions of a closed heart and how timing is crucial to my path and is inseperable from the state of my heart/mind... I can only guarantee to take it one step at a time.

"And I ran back to that hollow again The moon was just a sliver back then And I ached for my heart like some tin man When it came oh it beat and it boiled and rang Oh it's ringing Ring like crazy, ring like hell Turn me back into that wild haired gale Ring like silver ring like gold Turn these diamonds back into coal" -"Stable Song" by Gregory Alan Isakor (randomly stumbled upon it a couple weeks ago) I prefer the dissapointment of loving and longing in an unfulfilled way to lack of love... but it's all just phases/cycles of life if we relate to it wisely.

I guess what brought me into this crisis of sorts was entangling myself with precisely thinking about others. I wasnt concerned with my own fulfillment in it of itself, but that i wanted to help those I cared for, loved, longed for. Upon seeing that they had "moved on" so to speak I didn't have my comfortable sense of self or identity to rely on and I didn't know who to think of to help anymore. It's kind of complex. As far as the "Be still and know I Am God" part.... well theology is quite confusing to me and learning about emptiness and no-self seems to simultaneously clarify things that seem harsh and unappealing (on the surface level of intellect at least) and confuse my sense of theism even more. All in all I'm in a good place now lol

I’m trying my friend 🙏🏼

Hey bums. I was wondering on what informed takes any of you have on life's happenings and events and their significance. To clarify, I don't mean to make this merely intriguing intellectual speculation... it has a direct effect on my perspective, well-being, faith, and happiness. For years I adopted the belief "Everything happens for a reason", that the universe is constantly giving us cosmic lessons, that we always get what we need (even when it seems like the opposite). This helped me adopt the "don't know mind" where I would drastically decrease reactivity to arduous life circumstances, unexpected turns, perceived failures, etc. But I don't exactly know what to believe these days. If i could believe that by harmonizing with what is beneficial and right (to the best of our abilities), the rest will eventually fall into place, then it might help me relax and drop all my worries and analysis. Conversely, even if that isnt the case I might still do my best to drop my worries and analysis out of a desire to eliminate things that cause needless suffering.. In my own experience, it seems that I have grown from all the losses and hardships I have suffered/endured, but I don't want to be complicit in or complacent in inviting them. So is it your understanding that karma merely means we reap what we sow? Or is there a hidden (albeit at times acknowledged) truth that there is some sort of divine meaning/plan even in the mundane workings of life? Or is there no definitive or universal answer in your opinions? Hoping for sincere, helpful respones.

It is quite helpful dropping the inner dialogue… I ve resisted devoting myself to the present moment for years for a few reasons, but now I see even if it isn’t a panacea it’s not a very beneficial and a much better alternative than to be contemplating without tranquility in the body. When my mind was at ease it was easier to tolerate being scattered and distracted, but the value of “not knowing” becomes more apparent when your mind is not at ease. 🙏🏼🌳

I realize we really need to cultivate a certain level of stillness to drop grasping and rejecting… rational discernment alone is not enough. In my experience rigidity usually gradually thaws more than melt away but am grateful for the encouragement 🌊

I’m not very inclined to make happiness my goal these days… I’m finally surrendering to the fact that samsara is inherently unsatisfactory…. I’m down to sit for as long as seems appropriate. I just don’t want to use forcible effort nor do I want to create energetic rigidity/invite dark energy… difficult emotions I’m okay with and see their value. There is a subtle distinction there I think. I’m okay with struggling towards growth (or even awakening)… I was just caught off guard with lack of positive energy flow/loss of love in my heart. But as of last night it seems like the light is on track to return so I think perseverance will right everything in time as much as anything/everything needs to be righted 🙏🏼

When I say balance, I mean skillfully trying to accomodate my barriers to ego dissolution if that makes sense. My reason for not sitting long hours is that it might set "Me" into a state of counter-productive agitation. I figure the way to go about chipping away at ego is step by step rather than contriving either a "head-on" or a holistic method to do so. Maybe we are on the same page, and you just thought I was striving toward a fictionalized ideal of equilibrium? Either way, thanks for the feedback. Either way, I think your advice is spot on about returning to the moment again and again, dropping ideas and stories again and again... that certainly helps dukkha fade on it's own and seems to invite the light to return.