TranquilTurmoil

That movie clip brought me to laughter and I also found it quite delusional lol. It's precisely because I was believing in illusions that at the very least werent reciprocated by those around me that has led me to this "crisis" of sorts. There was a long time ago when I wanted to penetrate through all illusions (or at least I wanted to in theory)... now I kind of begrudgingly accept it as a necessity to minimize heartbreak, let down, disappointment

@stirling I just got back from my zen center. Going through the zazen routine helped me put into practice what you and others have been advising: My distraughtness and my awareness of my distraughtness dropped away. It was much need relief. But as soon as our practice circle/chanting eneded, my distraughtness came right back. I see not just the value of dropping the story but how I need to create specific wholesome circumstances to drop away. I ll have to figure it out one step at a time.

When I literally just got on the spiritual path I went to a few 10 day retreats at a monastery in upstate NY. There I met an ex-Theravada monk (who was attending a retreat) who was now studying at Princeton to become a psychotherapist. He spent 7 years as a monk in Germany and after having to leave his sangha after the teacher was found to have been abusing students… he headed for (solitary?) practice in Burma (Myanmar) to go all in on pursuing the jhanas. He couldn’t relate to the Burmese culture, probably went in over his head chasing the jhanas and (Unfortunately?) it thoroughly broke him, he disrobed, it broke him more, it was quite a vicious cycle from what he described. He was a wonderful person, helped inspire faith in me in the belief of past and future lives, karma, and transcendent states of being. I think when I spoke to him 8 years ago the highest state he had ever claimed to realize was “access concentration “. And he was in a tradition where all they did was meditation with little to no other activities (if memory serves me right). As I’m sure you know, it’s not for the faint of heart.

To clarify: as ridiculous as this statement may seem: I don’t think I am overthinking it. I am not anxious or worried. This is the culmination of nearly a decade of pent up emotions and energy filled with hope fear shame guilt regret trauma you name it…. All surfacing and me processing it while trying to not lose my balance. Like you said I am doing fine, you are doing fine in assisting me difficult emotions just Are. Dukkha included though it can be tempered by skillfully directing awareness toward wholesome states, or through “Dropping” and abiding in whatever arises. I should mention I have OCD and the residue of that (combined with years of bearing with chaos in calm, quiet desperation) is that I have to go through more often than I keep still and let the mud settle these days 🙏🏼

Thanks. What I’m going through now isn’t really self-doubt as much as grief and the withering away of a combo of hope, attachment (while striving towards cheerful optimism). It comes in waves. Now maybe the grief is self created… or maybe I should just do my best to put down the analytical mind to whatever extent I can. Right now I’m inclined to take a middle way

This is very reassuring . Thank you 🙏🏼

A real life example: I have a 4 year beard and hair currently. While I can strive to not dwell on this fact, not analyze it, not add to it, I do carry it with me. Until I cut it off it will be a very real part of me. It is to be determined how skillful it is to reflect on the 4 years of fur I carry with me, until causes and conditions come together when I release it; either spontaneously on a whim/intuitive impulse or through deliberate rational action

@stirling For some background: I think first I arrived (not at ultimate bodhicitta) but at compassion while neglecting the teaching on emptiness. And now as my compassion merged with lack of detachment has combined with the "loss" of relationships, I'm arriving at a purely analytical understanding of emptiness. With that there is dukkha. I guess it always a balance between taking a "theraputic" approach toward suffering and resting in the "don't know mind". I relied on the don't know mind for years and years as I went through tough times to say the least. But the is the danger of emotional suppression in such instances (albeit it may be necessary to do that in times of intense hardship). I don't think "I" am putting the second arrow in... I think my psyche is toying with that though. I think the most helpful thing right now is a holistic approach: Time in nature, shamatha, processing pain, finding catharsis in music, taking refuge in the people i feel drawn to and whom are both physically and emotionally available. Let me know if you have further guidance. I appreciate your sincerity and goodwill

I know this isnt the what are you listening to thread but this is my life right now :

The sticking point I have in explaining myself in this forum as well as the source of friction in almost all of my everyday affairs.. revolves around my relationship with the YI JIng, as a simultaneous guide, guru, oracle... that while cannot give "direct teachings" the way a human teacher can, nonetheless has formed my path within definitive, unorthodox, and dangerous do-or-die parameters. And yes I do realize and it's my refuge that disappointment leads to surrender which leads to growth if not outright awakening, However the lack of sangha for 7.5 years caused a ton of internal lack that has at times resulted in what is somewhat akin to Chan sickness. It's funny because after having an emotional shutdown at age 20 after immersing myself in becomeing acutely aware of the unfathomable cruelty and inflicted suffering of factory farming, I can handle human suffering with a great level of seperation (whether to a healthy extent or not).. it's animals I cant bear to see suffer. Or it burdens me if i feel I caused suffering on others. But I can deal with seeing others suffering without taking it on myself, even though I still care. My mood like all things fluctuates, I just made an inspired on foot pilgrimmage out into nature and just returned. My grandma called and I took refuge in her. I know that this crisis is impermanent but it still seems quite necessary to work through... it's more than just dropping my story as I have tried doing that as best as I know how to.

Thanks a lot Steve 🙏🏼. I figure that the teachings of shunyata are only meant to be understood on an intellectual level in so much as they help drive us towards awakening. But even when I have had peak experiences, they too were impermanent and life returned to unsatisfactory ness as I was deeply psychologically wounded. Thus while I wholeheartedly pursue the path of progress (that I assume will culminate in liberation) I can’t put myself in the shoes of an awakened one. In the meantime, it’s like everything I ever hoped for and thought mattered is like illusory grasping. And I can open my heart to a new life and plan to but it’s not what my heart yearned for for 8 years and im less than enthused at the immediate prospect of it. to clarify I have no intention of throwing off the world (again) and seeking transcendence. I was already a renunciate (sometimes voluntarily, while often involuntarily) who only ever dreamed of climbing back down the mountain one day. And while TDB is a genuine refuge as is my zen center… it doesn’t fill the hole of “absurdity” and let down. Volunteering at an animal shelter is the only volunteer work I can envision myself doing, I think it’s more likely in the coming months, years I will join a program to either finish my bachelors degree or more likely get certified in some healing/therapeutic modality. Or just continue to live on the fringes 🙏🏼 Thanks again.

@freeform I don’t want to derail what is potentially a helpful dialogue, but while I recognize your superior experience with Tao and Tao teachers… I don’t see how your metaphysical interpretation of the Yi Jing is a definitive one and directly contradicts both my own experience and logical analysis/what is taught in the wilhelm/walker translations. I can contextualize my entire path in relation to “Awakening to the Tao” by Liu I-Ming… although it may seem to be cherry picking and rationalizations. 🧐

I totally agree with what is said here. It seems to require surrender and resignation as well as willful discernment for me to abide in the present moment. I have to let go of my desire for elusive concept of fulfillment/happiness… and be willing to allow myself to be in a degree of pain. This is an ongoing challenge and a moment to moment process

@freeformand @steve first of all thank you. I should say that I’m going for daily nature walks and am willing myself to re-establish a regular sitting practice. I also have been using my will/free will more than ever… to the point of excess. I have been trying to repair, renew, replace wherever possible which has led to disappointment. I think stilling the mind, letting go of analytical thought, and not hurling myself at closed doors is key. In that spirit I won’t over elaborate. I’m out of the danger zone for the moment. But I hope to heal/renew and find a driving force again . 🙏🏼

Once strong emotions start surfacing/taking root, it’s hard not to indulge in the story, which can lead to quite a vicious cycle

Regardless. The point of that post is that I’m at dire emotional straits (or so it seems). My story may play a big role in that but I would like to transcend my story. I’m all my years of this journey rarely have I hardened into anger and bitterness… I could use help from whoever can give it (in whatever way I can receive it) to stop that from happening at this juncture and will do my best to be open and receptive 🙏🏼

Drifting Through the Bardo Coming to terms that the life that came before Is truly no more Letting go of attachment to that image Ready to depart from the station Taking a one way trip to the Unknown Thinking each stop is my simultaneous Exit of the train, entrance to new possibilities But like the image of oasis in the desert Each mirage more convincing than the last one It tests a mans patience if not his faith In the possibility of oasis at all

for all who have been following this thread: I ve come to an important clarification. My “story/milieu “ is on a very symbolic/image level of visceral ness. It’s not purely in words and unskillful thought. I just woke up from a nap/meditation dream. I was drifting in water that was hellish and I went pretty close to falling into the pits/a significantly deeper level. Faced with this I spotted a cavern with a bed covered in rocks and unplugged computers where I was going to take refuge for the night. I think this dream was largely spurred on by getting a lack of response on spiritual/dharmic dating sites after giving it a hell of an effort, combined with the very real alienation I feel from so many to varying extent. The past two nights I ve been going back to my old habit of laying down early just to either recharge from exhaustion or because there feels like no other refuge. im not in crisis or in danger of self harm. I just have no other outlet. I fluctuate between cheerful lighthearted ness and the purgatory of my psyche. I hope this refuge bears fruit 🙏🏼

Stumbled upon this re-reading Chogyam Trungpa: I realize there is an inherent danger to Shantideva’s instruction here as you don’t want to enable the students negative tendencies…. But if used skillfully in the world it is so admirable, inspiring, and touching. 🙏🏼

A very stable one I'd say! lol

No, I think suffering is intrinsic to life for the overwhelming most part. I just guess I long for unity, peace, and joy in the midst of suffering

I'm not sure I fully understand but I will try to answer. I only want to "quit" what i believe to be against my best interest... so If i believe something is good for me I dont want to quit it, even If i do not enjoy it or causes me to suffer

I got you. Real is such a subjective term… conditioned and thus impermanent. is more fitting I think. Only that which is unconditioned is eternal from what I have read… and the complement to that statement seems a bit self evident “Reality” it’s another story

Well while there were times during my years of (at least more intense) trials and tribulations that I had the flight impulse of abandoning my path and starting a different life at my original Zen monastery… I knew that was never a good or real option. There is no quitting option really… if/when liberation/salvation/moderate fulfillment comes… Hooray! Til then or til indefinitely just gotta endure cheerfully 🤷🏼‍♂️

I cant quite decode the HIndu/Yogic terminology, and I like the NIrvana quote, im just curious as to what you were responding to or trying to point to?