TranquilTurmoil

Im referring to alchemical Daoism. Thanks for the clarification. I think vows are important as I'm not familiar with the vast majority of arhats having a change of heart and vowing to remain in samsara. But I have a limited perspective. Also the intention to cultivate solely for the sake of helping others can be a Powerful skillful means. I view the pursuit of leaving the world behind altogether as a form of noble hedonism lol and not compatible with my inner truth which is why I wanted to clarify. I'm open to anything that i can see as anywhere from very beneficial to optimally beneficial. I just don't always have the control over my own free will in directing that. Im not doing any advanced practices (as I think you know from reading my posts)... I just follow the 8fold path, and do paramita practice. That is more like relating to everyday life skillfully than anything else. I just rely on my Oracle (loaded-word?) as well as fate to direct me to the life situations that are most likely to bear the most fruit. I asked about learning because as I'm not planning to submitting to a teacher quickly and following instructions in the way I have for the past 8 years... it makes sense to know what I may be getting into, what are the pros, the dangers, etc so I can figure out what my heart is drawn to.

Oh i definitely have desires. I have longing, yearning, let down, a tender, broken heart to the world at large. I went through an identity crisis in college, after receiving a little wisdom at a Zen monastery built myself as a "guru in my mind", and then had all my identities stripped from me both suddenly and gradually. I dont know what is optimal in this moment however I'm averse to ego reifications if that makes sense? I think me and my best friend both really love each other but in different ways. While I dont need to be with her Romantically, I see us drifting apart as I pursue dating and she develops her independent life. She is my last emotional hanger-on from my past life and I'm scared of becoming distant to the last thing that reminds me of a sense of "Home". I wish we could be together in an ideal world and be best friends forever lol... but she just wants me to be happy... with or without her personally involved in it. That's hard for me

To clarify, Equanimity and non-discrimination while related are subtly different in my experience. Equanimity lies in remaining calm in the face of chaos, being strong and persevering in the face of suffering. I dont feel numb (mostly). However I havent fully let go (or come close to it). That's what I consider non-discrimination. I hope that makes sense. Also I meant my resistance to abiding in true nature is my emotional disconnect from higher truth , not that abiding in higher nature is a disconnect from higher truth. I worded that poorly. As for only One... as I alluded to in other threads.. There are different takes (which I assume you think are all One!) I personally am inclined to believe in "Not-Two", which is not quite the same.

@old3bob I dont have the energy now to read and respond to that but I will when I feel up to it!

One thing I'm curious about is spiritual compatibility... Does it make sense to learn esoteric Taoism if I aspire to the bodhisattva path specifically? Is the Immortal aspiration one where one leaves the world behind for the most part, or is it more nuanced and variable? It doesnt mesh with my personal inner truth to leave behind the world of suffering with the intention of rescuing few (even though I'm not currently really rescuing anyone that I can tell (although I am helpful I like to think )). Maybe as someone who has an in-depth understanding of Daoism and if I remember right has practiced Theravada (dont remember you saying you trained in the Mahayana) could illuminate that to me at your leisure?

@freeform I get where you are coming from. One step at a time. I'm open to learning the esoteric Taoist understanding and perspectives.. potentially. I also recognize that sometimes growth is appropriate, sometimes healing is appropriate, and sometimes growth at the detriment to healing is appropriate ( i think). At this specific moment in time, I'm a little "drained" from so much posting + just making a dating profile that i thought would take 10 mins and never seemed to end. When I gain clarity on these issues... I'll re-evaluate and try to feel my way forward.. or whichever way it goes

I know you have read many of my posts... maybe if I explained my personal "story"/spiritual upbringing, and the battle scars I experienced in my early years of the journey (Being told by many family/hospital staff many unflattering things about by perception of reality rather constantly, being emasculated/humiliated on a daily basis on both an intellectual and visceral level, not having any refuge during this time other than being an island to myself)... maybe you might re-examine what's skillful or not for my specific situation? But then again... maybe we should save that for some future time when I'm more receptive to you naturally. I just dont do well with Tough Love at this time... I can accept hard truths about myself that I may be inclined to disbelieve.... but unless someone has penetrating insight into me I'm very hard to be convinced. Food for Non-Thought (lol) Edit: I think it's essential that a teacher or even spiritual friend be able to push and prod the student/friend, to uncomfortably encourage them towards growth... but in my case it feels more being pushed towards emotional withdrawal when repeatedly pushed in a way I'm not ready for.... I am flawed I know lol

I see (I think). I think if I was a silent canvas amongst other silent canvases it might be easier to enjoy the Ocean of Life in detachment... calmly observing every rise and fall? But like you alluded to earlier, it's a bit hard as a lay person... faced with all that is terrible in samsara/maya often, resigning to it, and when true joy is experienced... it's either a tempory experience amongst loved ones, or if it's in solitude it kind of feels like: Oh well this is nice... but now what? Equanimity will lead you to be rather indifferent/detached to the rising and fall as they occur. However, that doesnt cut the root of grasping and rejecting. And I realize typing this I hold on to my pain, and dont know if/how to let it go.... and what would remain of "me" and my ordinary humanity if I sort of hacked my mind to abide in a state of "Silent Illumination"? However, I think this is a emotional disconnect from higher truth. As I told my best friend after talking to her after a 3 year hospital hiatus, "The Spiritual Path is not as glamorous as I thought it would be :/" And I might have shared thid quote already too, but to quote my hospital therapist who I talked to a week ago: "Life is not for Wussies <3". Hope that makes sense.

Thank you. FWIW i had hoped to connect with you specifically when I went from a lurker to a poster on the forum (among some others). So hopefully if the barriers to communication/differences of approach ever fall away... I'll be here! -Elliot

Thank you for the warm and thoughtful commentary Steve. One thing I try my best to find a middle way on is not engaging in self-denial (anymore) while not indulging egoic desires.. It gets subtle. I dont know where Im going other than towards growth and service... and without having a way to really contextualize further progress that I know of it gets easy to feel lost. It's interesting besides if I knew 3-7 years ago I would regain the aforementioned refuges I would be absolutely jubilant! However when you get what you thought you wanted the ego grasps for more, and when you dont get what you hoped for it's a crash. It's not just that my best friend is a situation of unrequited love... it's that the life I dreamed o returning to was as illusory as just that.. a dream. Waking up to that is a shock and I feel like I carry my pain on my face 24/7 even as I experience beauty and humor. Dwai's suggestion of resting in the "silent canvas" was actually very helpful last night. However I've never derived much happiness of finding even exalted states of serenity and clarity when it has been found in what seemed like isolation. But I do hope to realize what you are pointing to here... self-sufficient contentment through arriving at intrinsic worth and unconditional love/compassion/friendliness. It took me a long time to develop what I consider discernment and inner independence.... I dont think that aspect is so big of an issue anymore, it's that I have a hard time coming to terms with the nature of samsara... at least until I learn to see it simultaneously as nirvana/Suchness. I have only briefly seen Anthony DeMello mentioned on this forum... will do further investigate... and hope to keep dancing... both with life and quite literally dancing/singing/rapping/writing... with whatever grace or lack of grace I can muster. Reciprocating the warm wishes, -Elliot

@silent thunder Thank you so much for sharing that. I guess I want to know if I can look forward to resolution, wholeness, enduring sweetness, or if I should be bracing myself to carry my pain with me and make the most of joy in the face of it? @Nungali Im wondering if you are thinking of someone else? Or if you read my recent thread on general discussion which touch similar themes? I havent been an active memeber of the forum very long... I only started consistenly posting a couple weeks ago

I realized that in many ways I've become anguished from loss, and when loss and it's after-effects lead to disillusionment (or sometimes disillusionment leads to loss) different symptoms of grief set in,: bitterness, remorse, anger at/hardening towards are perceived sources of grief. My best friend who I've longed to latch onto for the past 8 years reaffirmed at my asking for clarification: she just wants to be friends. My natural inner reaction to this is bitterness, while my wiser side recognizes: It's not her fault, We are wired to want what we want, we are often unable to get it the forms we think we want it in, and thus resistance and suffering. She just wants me to be happy and to preserve our friendship and my small sense of self wants to be able to have her as close to me as my heart desires. Thus cultivation to become True people and turn delusion into clarity. as well as seeking refuge to nourish our emotional sides... but in the meantime/simultaneously delusions, illusions, and disillusionment all lead to hurt.

It just feels like those who are sincerely trying to help are attempting to hold up a mirror to their mind's image of me (which i dont think matches how I am) and those who are trying to provide friendship and support have to hold their tongue. Both of these are somewhat of a let down, but sometimes getting let down is more beneficial than getting what we think we want. However, sometimes getting what we really believe we want/need is nice lol

Freeform, I hope im not tiring you out with this, and i dont want to harden into impatience (or show my lack of realization by doing so lol) but while I DO want to return to beginner mind, and while I recognize that being invested in/attached to my story and uniqueness is detrimental.... It's a Catch 22. I am just now stepping back into external free will after years of somewhat voluntary/largely involuntary dependence on the I Ching for guiding my life's course (which also would seem to show that I'm "doing it wrong") I could only make such a major life decision (at this time) with the blessing of the I Ching (and I know I'm not doing much to make the I Ching sound like an appealing path lol) or at the very least the clear and strong intuition that it would be more beneficial than my current transition. On top of that, I don't even know what I'm drawn to anymore and would need direction, direction only someone with a certain depth of insight into me could give. I started this thread out of a state of genuine frustration that was spurned by me realizing my best and only true friend of 8 years definitevly doesnt want to date me, and thus i fear we are bound to drift apart (among other life letdowns). In the meantime, I am taking all the steps I know how to take to progress, but if my path has taught me anything, it's that most obstacles cant be removed by effort of will alone... it takes patience, gentleness, perseverance, inner strength, and the oft-loaded term "Faith". Im not trying to push you away, as i wasnt trying to push anyone away, I just think we arent skillfully communicating or influencing each other at this moment in time. IF that changes that would be wonderful. But to sum up what I remember Buddha saying in describing right speech, it has to meet the following criteria: It has to be true and It has to be discerned as beneficial to say it at that given moment. While there is sometimes value in planting seeds, sometimes it's no use trying to tell people what they are unready to or in my case: unable to hear.

In response to “helping me the way I want to be helped…” it’s more nuanced. I want someone to help me In a way I can actually receive it, it’s not really a matter of preference. If someone could persuade me that I ought to live a more ordinary, healthy life I’d love that! If someone could persuade me I need to stop being complacent and work hard toward awakening in an uncomfortable way I’d hopefully reluctantly accept that too. But instead no one has either known how to or been inclined to fully meet me where I am. Although I appreciate the efforts 🙏🏼

The one friend/like minded friend who recognizes me most is a reiki teacher my age (and gf to my middle school best friend who’s becoming a conventional md)… and thus she only really has support and understanding to offer, as she is big on letting the universe be your teacher and being open-minded. So it’s tough because the people I think potentially “hold the keys” to help me unlock my own awakening have preconceived notions about me (that I caused through my honest and sincere expression/explanations)… and thus I don’t know how to let them help me. I do much better with illuminating, complementary advice that arises not in the spirit of correction but discovery, rather than informing me that I am misinformed by myself and need to correct myself in a way that violates the entire paradigm I follow without persuading me that is to my or anyone’s benefit. I think you missed my point about the TB saints. I don’t think Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa were mahasiddhas when they sincerely sought the Way. I believe we all have bodhi-nature / potential to become fully enlightened, and sometimes extreme methods are what is required to draw that out of us. I don’t have any siddhis but I can discuss my experiences humbly, openly, sincerely for those who want to listen in hope of helping me where I am. 🙏🏼

No one has been so inclined to video chat with me (although me and creation talked and stirling has my number) and so are taking in what I type and their mind does with it what it will. On top of that, I know of no one who has had the type of dynamic with the I Ching that I have had and so when I describe it it may seem like I’m rationalizing or spiritual bypassing or have ordinary delusions from living in a bubble. The only people who I have even read about going through what I went through are TB saints like Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa etc. as well as Chan/Zen legends… clearly coming from a 28 year old without a standard teacher, typing on an Internet forum…. Well needless to say that’s a tough sell. maybe the truth lies somewhere in between but I don’t think I’m accurately perceived by most and that’s through no real fault of the Bums. to quote a Hinton verse of the TTC: ”Words go on failing and failing… nothing like abiding in its midst.”

Fwiw I don’t think I’m asking anyone to enable me. I just think most ppl’s intuitive response to help me doesn’t actually match up to what is beneficial to me. This the need for subtle understanding. My 2 cents 🙏🏼

I cropped it out intentionally as I didn’t want to distinguish or identify the good folks on the Dao Bums as falling in any of the three classes. I understand your sincerity and also that you feel you aren’t the one to help or feel that you can point me to anyone who can. while that is a lonely analysis, the thing I don’t understand is why most teachers would have fixed methods and styles (unless they are only confident in teaching their expertise) and it’s a bit disheartening that I don’t come across how I perceive myself (and how no on else seems too). Yet it seems to be the natural way/course for the time being. Which is why I sort of lost interest in finding a teacher (for the moment) and am instead seeking refuge in community.

For emphasis and hopefully not egoic self-defense, verse 41 of TTC by Derek Lin:

Fwiw it’s worth I downloaded a dating app two days ago and am sincerely pursuing that Avenue. I’m rapidly reintegrating into certain subcultures while realizing my past might be better left in the past. I do intend to get a career or something in the next two years when I cancel my Disability. I’m not asking for validation as much as I yearn to be truly understood and seen as I am. I think then receptivity will open and I can have a true dynamic instead of me venting, and half appreciating and half tolerating the responses I get. I certainly appreciate your responses but believe if you personally seek to help me, believe that’s a genuine and worthwhile possibility, then getting to the true heart of the matter is a necessary prerequisite. Feel free to give feedback as appropriate 🙏🏼

As I understand it, the goal of Chan seems to simultaneously become "A True Person of No Rank" and nourish, assist, deliver oneself and sentient beings rather indiscriminately. Having "rank" (whether in the form of internal ideas or external recognition" sabotages the "True Person". Also, if you have the idea of being/becoming "A True Person of No Rank" it becomes an endless, circular, egoic striving. The only way I've approached this is through surrender, letting go, and doing what I have determined (in often strange ways) what life requires of me. "A man with a 'Why' will endure almost any 'How'"... that doesnt imply the whole process will be enjoyable -Elliot

I have no way to clarify if the optimal path to life is to forego divination and do your best surrounding yourself with the right people, places, circumstance, attitudes etc. But I doubt that whether the I ching is external or not that whatever I consult in the process has impure motivations. Hope that clarifies where I am at, how I got here, and why I am rather dug in to my faith and devotion (whether misguide or not I can only do my best to discern, and then adapt)

In summary, I recognize your wisdom, insight, and experienced... it's just that i think i require a very nuanced and counter-intuitive understanding... then I can be assisted much more fully. I hope that doesnt come off as a delusion of grandeur.

The undertaking of the "bodhisattva path" is a close to an impossible task; however I cant think of anything more worthwhile. I like to laugh at myself through being self-effacing. It's not that i have a wounded self-image as much as i Have (energetic?) knots/triggers that make me harden when confronted. I agree about you for wholesome characteristics... for a person with greater development than I had. There is isnt much reliable or dependable of someone who undertakes the path of a "home-leaver" much less one who is bound by his path to often retreat and seperate (with the ultimate goal of being able to both seperate and unite). Meaning and hope were my imperfect raft to get me through trying times. I dont recognize their intrinsic virtue just to clarify. With regards to the I Ching, I never intended to surrender to it as one surrenders to a Guru... Life and it led me to that. I have hoped and mostly believed in it's benevolence and wisdom. Whether or not it is an external, infallible Immortal oracle is i bet up for debate and something I have often doubted myself. However, my experience was that of an External guide as I was led to do things no part of me seemingly wanted to do and in hindsight seemed very beneficial... albeit coming at profound costs. While I certainly have developed attachment and reliance on the YI, sometimes wholesome and sometimes unwholesome, I believe that it can and probably ought to be transcended in time. However until you reach a certain point of the path, it is my understanding that you cling to the path as your raft crossing the ocean of samsara and samsaric delusion. Fwiw although tempting I rarely if ever divine the future with the Yi. I use it as a guide with clear-seeing that leads me to optimal decision making, as well as discernment in conduct... it's hard to choose wholesome states/actions over unwholesome states/actions even with the help of a teacher/guide/master/oracle... how much more so must it be when you are relying on your self before you have sufficiently yielded leadership to your own higher parts/nature