stirling

It says "when you find" in both cases. It isn't saying "go find" your "place" or "way". No volition implied. The "self" is a delusion... there is ONLY noticing... finding. There are footnote links. In this case: I thought you might appreciate a Tenzin Gyatso/Berzin quote, since you were citing something from Berzin. I also found it on Berzin's own site for you: http://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/vajrayana/mahamudra-advanced/a-discourse-on-autocommentary-to-a-root-text-for-mahamudra-the-dalai-lama/mahamudra-the-four-seals-mahamudra-dzogchen Well... I think we have put that one to bed. I hope this is more helpful. Do you work with a lineage teacher with insight? It might help to run some of this by someone like that who can clarify the finer points of your interests. Fact checking yourself can be a dark rabbit hole indeed. I forget where you live, but I might be able to recommend a teacher if you don't have one. Certainly at Kobun's Jikoji I can point you to a couple of fantastic teachers brown robes who are eminently qualified. Well, here we agree. But, since I have quoted both the Dalai Lama/Berzin and Sogyal Rinpoche's/Nyingma Tradition's RigpaWiki, created to bring illumination about their core teachings specifically for the clarity of the lineages students, I think we are in safe environs. Perhaps my experience is in question? I can share it: I started my path in Buddhism in 1991 with the controversial terton Ngakpa Chogyam Rinpoche learning Dzogchen meditation and getting my first pointing out, went to various empowerments and direct teachings with Sogyal Rinpoche when he (and I) lived in London, took refuge with Gyatrul Rinpoche in Oregon, and completed Lojong teachings with him and Lama Bruce Newman (name-checked on one of the Wikipedia pages I have linked), received empowerments and teachings from Lama Zopa Rinpoche, including the Medicine Buddha empowerment with His Holiness, began and finished the Ngondro with Lama Tharchin Rinpoche, and Lama Sonam in the Santa Cruz California area. I received repeated direct pointing at Rigpa as well as Togal and Trekcho instruction from most of these teachers, being able to see and understand Rigpa directly, but without the complete insight. Lama Tharchin died in 2013, and I wasn't that motivated to work with his student Sonam, so I went without a teacher for a few years, carrying on my practice. In 2015 I had insight/Satori and the next day drove to Jikoji, which was only 30 minutes from my house in the mountains looking for a teacher who could help me. I met Jana Drakka Roshi, herself a brown robe Soto priest, and my insight was recognized. I did weekly meditation, dokusan and the sesshin schedule at Jikoji for 3 years stabilizing my insight and in due course having the pleasure of getting to work with almost all of Kobun's core of dharma transmitted lineage teachers (Angie Boissevain, Michael Newhall, Ian Forsberg, Vanja Palmers and Doug Jacobson), and a number of well-known SF Zen Center alum. After a few years Jana suggested I sew MY robes for ordination (in SF with Blanche Hartman, her teacher) but Jana was soon diagnosed with and succumbed to cancer sadly. I was introduced to my current teacher, Ed Brown's only transmitted student a few months later. She agreed that I should continue sewing After a few years my robes are nearly completed, but rather than normal ordination I will be "lay entrusted" - a roshi, authorized to teach (though I already have been approved to teach and have my own sangha) but not in monastic line, but in the householder tradition, much like ngakpas of the Nyingma tradition like my original interest. Huh. I guess don't make a lot of "I" statements. Makes sense. Sorry?

It isn't a unique thing to notice that only happens at particular times. It is synonymous with the term "luminosity" if you are familiar with it. "Clear light"/luminosity is a feature of moment-to-moment emptiness as witnessed once pointing out instructions are given, and an obvious feature of things where there is Satori. If you have had introduction to the nature of mind and understood what you are looking at, you have seen it. https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Clear_light In this section of this article on "Pointing out (the nature of mind) instructions where the two methods for manifesting ("seeing") clear light are discussed, (the gradual path and the sudden realization) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing-out_instruction This second "meditation on a nonconceptual state of mental consciousness" is precisely the same practice as shikantaza. Appearances in consciousness are in constant motion. What they are moving on top of emptiness (Rigpa/Mind/God/Self/Dharmakaya), in the same way that a fountain is constantly outpouring, but its source is still, OR like a film you watch is full of movement but the underlying screen underneath isn't actually moving at all. That which moves is illusory as a separate thing, is still. There is no-thing to move. When mind has no abode it is because it does not belong to a "self" it is everywhere/empty. Actualizing the fundamental point is being enlightened NOW. Enlightened mind, and the mind in shikantaza are the same, only it is possible that realization isn't present. As Robert Thurman once said in a discussion group I attended: Enough with all of this practicing, we need more ACTUALIZING! Practicing happens whenever you sit, actualizing happens NOW and EVERWHERE, with no person, time, or space accomplishing it. Too contrived, in my opinion. This idea that there are steps or procedures is silly. See above. Oh, I don't mean I think it is a throw away at all. I mean that, as a teenager, I found it frustrating because it gives the reader to place to rest. I see it now as a fantastic negation of all of the relative ideas we tend to cobble together trying to understand the reality of things, and how we are off the mark with every one of them. It is an amazing exposition on no-self and emptiness, surely one the greatest statements on the non-dual nature of reality. Top 10 material for sure. If you read it and your mind can't rest, things are going well. Better to have it read to you in meditation. This is definitely Soto Zen basic training. Watch the breath, it drops out there is Choiceless Awareness/Shikantaza. Then your thoughts get going again in accordance with the level of your training/insight. Mind with a small (m). I feel the same. Finding new ways to express work with these ideas is helpful. Not sure what you are driving at. Explain a little more?

What do you think about the Holy Guardian Angel summoning bit? Any experience with that? If yes, I may message you if you are amenable to satisfy some curiosity. This is not a trick question. 100% agree that one should be able to experiment with belief systems and have them actually yield some results. I understand this kind of thing. It is hard to end up entirely the product of one tradition as a Westerner in the last 60 years or so. Great story!

With a few clarifications of terminology I could agree with that.

He would be wrong then. In the Dzogchen path the rigpa/clear light/luminosity is introduced to the student at the earliest point in practice that makes sense... sometimes in the first few minutes. Clear light/luminosity is an available experience to an enlightened being in ANY moment. That means that it is also available to YOU, IF you know what you are looking for. A good teacher should provide an "introduction the nature of mind" so that you can begin to find it in your daily life. https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Clear_light It is worth considering whether this is possible for those from other traditions. I personally think this is a clear benefit of the Dzogchen approach that should be more universally used. Mahayana and Vajrayana assume that you are ALREADY a Buddha, but simply do not realize your Buddha nature. A simple introduction to your nature as a Buddha could be enough to make you realize your already extant enlightenment. The ONLY difference between seeing clear light at death, etc. is possibly the depth at which it is seen, though the possibility of an experience at a deeper level is always there. OK good. Yes, this COULD be a dharma gate, but it would be only one of COUNTLESS gates. Which gate you will enter through is not up to you, of course. In my experience it is more about dropping as many conceits as possible. If the remaining ones are not great obscurations for you it is possible you may see through the remaining ones and they drop off after realization. Good news, eh? In Shikantaza/Dzogchen the mind drops away and isn't present at all when absorbed. Next time you sit and your mind is quiet and empty have a look. Indeed. Mind without an abode is a lovely non-dual statement of things. If mind has no abode it everywhere - "empty" of self-nature. It has dropped away. I love the Diamond Cutter sutra. I first read it in my late teens and threw the book it was in across the room. The continual setting up of something you can hold onto and then constant negation made me feel crazy! Very good sir. Thank you. Unless done from the vantage of Open Awareness/shikantaza/Dzogchen, possibly. If you are choosing the meditation object, how does the meditation become choiceless? Choiceless awareness happens when all objects are dropped in my experience. IMHO he means chucking all of the "selfing" processes you can and getting the mind closer and closer to emptiness itself. I sit this way occasionally when uncomfortable, noticing where the body is uncomfortable and dropping both tension AND contrived thoughts where they might be arising, or "liberating" as they say in Dzogchen. In absolute terms it is dropping all contriving of sensory phenomena (including mind amongst the sense doors) so there is just unlabeled sensation arising and passing. Looking forward to it! Get that planchette moving!

In relative terms there IS an intelligence that does the contriving - it is the thinking (m)ind. It also gets called the "ego" or "self". The mind IS foreign in its way, in that it is primarily a source of discursive thought before it is seen through. I agree that it appears to operate as the "will", but enlightenment lays bare that both the "mind" and "will" are illusory conceptual constructions that have no intrinsic reality.

Nicely done. Also nicely said. The void, strangely, is where the "action" is. The correct answer is: Everywhere. We have experiences of enlightenment (and by association non-doership) every day, we only lack the insight to recognize them. In Mahayana we maintain that ALL beings are already enlightened and only need to insight to see that they are. I approve of this message. Congratulations. Indeed all phenomena are interconnected. Thich Nhat Hahn's presentation of dependent origination is a nice doc to go with this conversation: https://www.lionsroar.com/the-fullness-of-emptiness/ I've got love, money, and immortality taken care of, but I love it all conceptually. So, are you a Thelemite magician?

Clear light is the nature of mind, precisely what I am alluding to. There is no need to wait for death, or advanced practices. The practice is actually very simple - allowing the contrived nature of mind to drop away. Clear light is what is left underneath. Shikantaza is the same practice with slightly different terminology. The Zen and Dzogchen are predicated on starting at the top - getting a glimpse of the nature of mind/enlightenment, then stabilizing that view. The glimpse isn't that hard, some people get it in minutes. This is at odds with the practice stack at the heart of early or "Theravada" Buddhism, a more involved journey. https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=View,_Meditation_and_Action For what it is worth, this is the clearest version of your conception that I have read yet. Thank you. I am not clear though on how such a minor possible insight could be more desirable than enlightenment. Enlightenment would make all of this doing to achieve some level of not doing irrelevant, in my experience. I don't believe that the Buddha was ever pushing for anything but at least the insight of no-self. No-self IS the entry into the eventual extinguishing of suffering. How would what you suggest be a more pressing matter? Ah... good. OK. Does it end suffering, and if so, how? This is the basis of the Zen tradition, the same as Dzogchen: View, Meditation, Action. See above. You can see how the Tripitaka and Zen are somewhat incompatible in a number of respects, though the eventual insight is the same. Realization of the nature of mind is stream entry, the first true step on the path to the end of suffering. Complete insight into no-self is the 4th path understanding, the end of suffering as a "self". The realization of the nature of mind (the nature of "Self") is enlightenment in many realizations. I know what a tulku is, but I'm honestly not sure what a tulka is. Enlighten me? As I recall you discount it, but the Bahiya sutta is certainly one of the great statements of emptiness existing. The reason why there is "neither feeling and perceiving, nor yet not feeling and perceiving" is because there is no "self" present to apprehend it. If I put it like this, do we agree? Where there is a lack of insight into the true nature of "self" there is suffering.

My experience is different. It isn't like falling asleep, it is being intensely awake. When "self" drops away it is completely obvious that no-one has ever been in charge of the body, or anything else. "Volition" is just a fiction permanently. It isn't an experience or some temporary state, but the permanent underlying quality of reality. Enlightenment. Who, Shuryu Suzuki? Kobun Chino? Nah... just objects in consciousness, like all other objects. If there is an "I" it is everything. Sometimes there is a big refund check in the mail. Sometimes there is a bill. Neither one have any reality of their own as separate things or events. If it is time to pay the bill there will be cash in your account, and a checkbook and pen nearby. If you are sitting zazen in the forest without those things, or without even a phone or the internet, that's your clue that it isn't time for the bill to be paid. Instead, allow your thoughts to drop away and be present as the pageant of emptiness once again crosses your vision. Does the dentist get paid... doesn't get paid... we'll see. You are disagreeing with Shuryu Suzuki, and Dogen, not me. Still, experientially, I support this statement without any reservation. Shikantaza is one-pointedness of mind. The mind experiences moment to moment vipassa, but there is no single object other than the dharmakaya itself, full of arising and passing appearances. The arising and passing dharmakaya IS the object. The quiet, empty mind of Shikantaza is none other than enlightened mind, though most often insight is missing to see it. Self, time, and space drop out in shikantaza... anyone can observe this with some pointing. With self dropping out, volition (doership, put more broadly) drops out though we may not see it. I may be missing what you are trying to illustrate with this passage.

Yes, that works wonderfully. Purpose is a story we tell that has an illusory past and/or future about how things change or evolve. In reality there is just now, and those stories are just stories. Stories about the past and future ALWAYS arise and pass NOW. So - the little girl plays with her doll, NOW, and imagines what it would be like to be a mother, NOW. Maybe she remembers wanting to be like her mother in the past - that is a story happening now too. To add to that: It is entirely possible to be present in the world in ONLY this moment and see that the past and the future are always stories we tell in the present. It is possible to go about life with no sense or belief in an illusory "self", and also possible to see that the world is flat and empty of things that have existence of their own as separate from everything else. As I said in a previous post, NOTHING GOES ANYWHERE. The form is emptiness, and the emptiness is form. The world looks more or less precisely as it does now, only the "emptiness" (non-dual nature) is seen as its deeper, persistent, unchanging reality from which its separateness emerges as an illusion. There are multiple people on this board that see the world this way, and many more in the world at large. It isn't impossible to see or understand. It is possible to introduce many people to in a few minutes, with a teacher that sees and understands it.

The cessation of intentional activity comes about by the realization of the emptiness of self - Satori. That is the ONLY way it comes about. You could make a story about the method that creates that situation, but there ISN'T one that is somehow true for everyone, and definitely not one that you can predictively use for yourself. It is realized to be strangely uncomplicated once revealed. This is why Suzuki said: He also said: Why? Because there ARE no enlightened people. Enlightenment is seeing through the delusion of intention or control or any "self" that is in charge. Enlightenment is the end of ignorance. Dogen says: Then he says: It is the same as the Lojong instructions for post-meditation in the 7 Point Mind Training: This is enlightened view. All purpose is illusory for the same reason. Purpose implies the absolute reality of "self", others, things, space, and time. All of these aspects are ultimately non-dual. Having said this, the phenomenal world doesn't go away it is just seen for what it is, illusory, populated by the ornaments of emptiness. Extemporaneous Koan: To make a fire, you will require two sticks. What kind of fire do you make when you rub two illusory sticks together?

That makes sense. Thank you for sharing that. Ironically, real happiness happens when the struggle STOPS. It also happens as the delusion of choice drops away. What is it that you mourning, if you don't mind me asking? I agree that, in your definition, the failure would be that it is a fixed, singular view point. It is a belief, rather than an experienced reality. A belief is something we construct because we don't really know, from a limited number of variables based on a limited set of experiences. What we are after is not a viewpoint, or intellectual construct, but a gnosis. Gnosis is the ability to look at this moment and SEE the reality of that gnosis, in every moment we experience without doubt or recourse to a story to support it. As an analogy, it is the difference between having a recipe to bake a cake that you have never tried and the direct, concomitant experiential knowledge of having baked the cake and the understanding of how the ingredients and process interact to create the finished product. The Wisdom (prajna) I am alluding to is not a viewpoint or intellectual construct, but this gnosis. How do you know when understanding is cemented? There is no doubt, restlessness, or suffering caused by it. You understand that your gnosis belongs to nothing and no-one. If you still harbor doubt, or are restless, there is still work to be done. Non-dual gnosis is the basis for Daoism, Buddhism, Sufism, and is a feature of many (most?) other world religions.

I respect that this is your experience of the world, but understand that there are myriad "beings" that have a very different experience of the world. There are many here actively experimenting with shifting their experience with various practices. Your experience is NOT a fixed or underlying truth by any means. If you LIKE your experience then there is no need to do anything, but from here it looks like this view isn't generating any happiness for you, or you would wander off and enjoy your new insight. What is your definition of Wisdom (capital "W")? From my perspective, there is nothing about "Wisdom" (or prajna) that can fail or not fail.

I studied and practiced in the Nyingma tradition for 20 years, and still practice Tonglen where it seems skillful. The practice is intended to erode self cherishing, and train the practitioner to shift how we frame our interactions with others and our compassion for their suffering. I have never found that the suffering feels more "real" exactly, only that my emotional coolness about the suffering of others and myself is has greatly dissolved and is much better understood - so, a general increase in Bodhicitta. I'd say your description is a fine general outline. My suggestion is to see how it shifts YOU. Notice how you feel about various situations in your life and notice how they shift over time. Make it part of your daily life, and take it everywhere - use it where you notice there is suffering of ANY being. I would suggest combining it with the Lojong practices, which are even MORE transformative, for maximum effect. If you have a Tibetan Buddhist teacher ask if they might work with you on it. You can read the texts and try it yourself too. I'd suggest: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Path-Awakening-Cultivating-Compassion/dp/1590302141

You have clearly already decided what you think. I'm curious about why you keep posting in this thread when you have already ended the discussion to your satisfaction?

Fair enough. I'm pleased the parens made it clear to you anyway.

Yes! There is just "experiencing" with no experiencer. All dualities are dissolved. Thanks for that Steve.

You are "absolutely" right here. The "two truths" doctrine is ITSELF a relative truth teaching - a teaching tool. It isn't really possible to characterize the absolute in subject/object terms, though there are core qualities to it that can be as close as you can get without actually apperceiving it. The only way to completely understand the absolute is by direct experience. This is where the Zen expression of "don't know mind" comes from. It is the idea that the enemy of understanding is the reification of our experience. I will differ with you on your characterization of the absolute - my direct experience of it in this moment is that the absolute is the only thing that ISN'T changing. It is the relative that is in flux, flowing out of the absolute. The absolute is the substrate that underlies all experiencing, the only "thing" that never changes. Form (the ever-changing relative) is (perhaps) the expression or maybe canvas of that emptiness. They are ultimately the same.

Haha! Well... it has certainly neglected to let me know or treat me poorly for observing it, so I don't think its feelings are THAT hurt.

In my experience, the relative is a provisional truth, the absolute is the ultimate truth. One exists based on causes and conditions in this moment and is always in flux, the other is the ground of being and thus is omnipresent. Seen from the absolute, the relative has a certain "unreality" or dream-like quality. The relative is real from the perspective of its own internally consistent logic, but unreal in that it is understood that there are no things that have intrinsic reality of their own. This includes time, self, and space.

Hello Lairg... sorry, missed this one. My answer would be that the absolute is entirely non-dual. This means that unity with the non-dual is complete presence as no-self/no-things/no space/no time. Taken in context, there is therefore no "purpose", since it implies some timeline of development from one illusory "state" to another, and no real "relative" to manifest (as Dwai and Steve will remind you ) . All purpose is illusory. IMHO the relative is a mirror, and that mirror points you toward the absolute aspect of reality. "You" generate the relative, its purpose, "self", things, time, and space.

Really, this is probably everything that needs to be said on the matter. Nice work!

I "absolutely" get where you are coming from. Here is what I mean more specifically, and I'll use Vajrayana terminology, which in many cases I prefer anyway having spent most of my practice life in Nyingma and practicing Dzogchen. Pointing out instruction casts light on Rigpa as the basis that underlies our relative experiencing in the world. We can learn to witness Rigpa in our "personal" experience and see that what we call the relative world (the appearances of cars, trees, books, cats) is still present, but empty. At this point there is still obviously the student witnessing Rigpa, and commonly having trouble seeing that this isn't a special mind "state", rather than something underlying experience. I think in THIS context Wilber's model is a good one. The student, still without insight in the nature of mind, can use this witness experience of Rigpa to better understanding that it is a quality that is ALWAYS present underneath the discursive/constructed/labelled/cognized/conceptual world they are used to inhabiting, and see that Rigpa never goes anywhere. It is ALWAYS present underneath the mind's stories about how things are. It is the "medicine" that buddhas point to. Seeing with true insight it is realized that there IS no witness, just self-less being-ness now, that the relative is none other than the absolute generating the phenomenal world, eternally NOW, the primordial awareness radiating. What was previously seen to be a world of things with intrinsic existence is instead the wholeness/emptiness of Rigpa in a play of "light and color". The relative and absolute are, and have always been the same, illusory constructs like all dualities, just as the nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya, are always the dharmakaya.

Ken Wilber suggests that the Absolute includes but supersedes the Relative. Both are always present, but the relative is merely an illusory aspect of the whole.

There IS a mechanism for insuring what is important is passed on... where possible. This is what lineage is about. A master with understanding sometimes recognizes that the understanding is now had by a student and that the knowledge is persistent moment to moment over months and years. The master then asks the student to teach and, importantly, STAYS his teacher, working with the student to hone the deepening understanding and the delivery of teaching. Nothing written down TRULY addresses the understanding (and can't), so it is of relatively less importance. For a qualified teacher with mastery ALL circumstances that arise in life are teachings.