stirling

Kobun is talking about an action, the action of sitting. Things enter into that action through the place associated with self-awareness. I think he is talking about actualizing enlightenment. Where the glasses, the clothing and the house sits, he means that you are transforming reality. The delusion is that this is ever NOT the case. Indra's web, the 10,000 (illusory) things are always enlightened and liberated. Sitting shikantaza is just dropping the illusion of separateness. I think the "action" is in fact "not doing"... or maybe just realizing that you are part of this verb of wholeness. One presentation of the Buddha perhaps. I am certain the Buddha would recognize Kobun's explanation intimately. Both are skillful means. The breath is often the way in, but there are plenty of realized Zen teachers that will just tell you to sit there and watch what the mind does until the mind exhausts itself and goes quiet. I'm sure this must work for some, though I haven't met anyone yet who it has worked for. Watching the breath eventually leads to the technique dropping away. Then there is the panic that meditation isn't being "done" correctly. At that point you just instruct the student to notice when the mind is quiet and let go of "doing" and techniques. Breath is an object. Shikantazaa/Zazen is always objectless, yes? The wind is just a metaphor here. What is the true nature of wind? What is moving the flag? Same difference. WHOSE action? I think it is about presence. The nature of this moment is that it "verbs". In this moment enlightenment is actualized where the mind is quiet and empty without object. It is always NOW that this happens.

Zazen can be a one-pointedness on whatever arises, OR intently taking in the field of experiencing, and because of this it still has the important aspects of both shamatha AND vipassana. Where the mind is present without an abode, awareness is allowed to wander freely, but always with alertness. We can also use our sight and take in the entirety of our view, as wide as our gaze. The mind goes quiet. The awareness is diffuse - everywhere. This is how things truly are. Maybe we suddenly realize what we are looking at? Or: When you look at your hand there is "hand awareness". When you look at a bird there is "bird awareness" etc. When we finally notice that what we are is in fact this mobile, unattached everywhere AWARENESS and not any of these seemingly separate things we rest it on, there might be "non-dual awareness". In either case, working with the body, or watching the breath, or moving energy becomes just an old raft we were thankful to have encountered - we can leave it for someone else.

I think I can agree with this too. When the "doing" part of your quest is complete, it will be completely clear. A new way of being and things happening will be clearly present. It goes: • Work on obscurations practices make insight/awakening more likely • Insight/Awakening happens • Continued sloughing off of reified ideas due to new perspective on reality and "self". Deepening of non-dual seeing/understanding To clarify, the initial insight that arises in the first point NEVER changes, it just deepens in ways that are eventually hard or impossible to quantify or qualify. Imagine you are seeing the world through a dirty window. In a number of places there are major opaquely soiled areas that block most of the view. Now imagine that you suddenly realize that the dirt is on the inside of the window, NOT the outside. This is a problem you might be able to resolve! With a wet cloth you work to remove some of the larger, thicker areas that block your seeing out. Once they are gone you are suddenly, in a flash, able to piece together just what it is that is happening outside. Now that you are aware of what is beyond the window, cleaning the rest of it is fairly simple. With insight, seeing past the obscured view of duality reveals the non-duality of things. Gnowing (gnosis) their non-duality, it is now simple to see where you continue to have obscurations and, without any real work, since they no longer belong to "you", and you don't have any attachment to those views. When an obscuration is realized, you can simply drop it. That simple. This is what Manitou was referring to about her fear. After non-dual realization there are left a myriad of small, strange artifacts of the "self" that just fall away of their own accord, or are seen and effortlessly dropped. The process of working with our obscurations (emotional attachments and aversions) and dropping them also makes insight more likely - makes us "accident prone" as Suzuki Roshi says. When the happy accident of enlightenment happens, reality as it is becomes obvious and what is left of the obscurations, the strange little stuff, starts to fall off effortlessly. Is that clearer?

How about a definition from the tradition you are working on... and maybe a summary of what you believe to be true in that summary? I would describe this as the non-dual perspective too, after a fashion. Emptiness and Form are always together (though the form really appears WITHIN the emptiness), but without insight there is only the belief in Form. Emptiness is not seen. Whether they are both recognized or not there is always a push a pull in consciousness between them before realization. The existence of Emptiness is unknowingly denied moment by moment where we reify (make real and solid in our minds) the phenomena we encounter. Again... I love that we are dialoguing now. Thank you for your part in making it possible.

Beat me to it. Just to add: No-one is being forced to post here, or to read the thread. There are any number of threads many here are not currently posting on. If this one is not of interesting, there is freedom to post elsewhere. The "hammering" is on target, so why not hammer at it until it's freestanding and confers some shelter?

I see a surprising amount of unity (haha!) on the topic and respect from most parties on this thread. Maybe... I dunno, 3 to 5 different parties? I also see a lot of kindness and Wisdom.

How would you know if you got them all? Speaking solely for myself, I would say that the insight is the realization about what those all truly are. Most of the major ones need to be cleared before insight. Each time one comes up it is obvious what it is, it is noticed and it is dissolved. This is, IMHO, what Manitou was talking about with her "fear". She likely wasn't even aware that it was happening, she noticed and it was dropped. It is ABSOLUTELY the non-dual understanding that makes this actually possible. I am certain this isn't just my experience.

My wife was not immediately impressed with my post insight "Self". She was a little concerned that I had lost it and that I was going to chuck her and either go to a monastery or a convent. I had to prove my new (increased) "sanity". She is very patient.

You are clearly a very brave, sincere and motivated practitioner to put your personal journey up here for the world to consider. That is worth a LOT on this journey. My sincere respect. I guess I'm looking for more clarity on this question: In a sentence, can you describe the revised understanding of reality that you would now hold? Specifically, what would your walking around experience would be. Would there even BE one? Supposing there is still existing in this reality : What happens in difficult situations? Do emotions or thoughts arise? Do you have a job, friends, or partner(s)? Does the world look like this still, or something else? If you aren't in this reality, what is THAT reality like? Who is there? Bonus question: Who else is there that has this proposed insight? - Thanks again for working with us to bring some sharing and understanding to this.

Perhaps the disconnect is about what the "self" actually is vs. the "Self" and what happens once the "self" is realized. How would you define 'self" vs. "Self"? What do you think your life would be like if you realized the "Self"?

I meant to say: Sorry for the confusion.

...just to add to Dwai's excellent post: You aren’t denying your true nature, you just don't REALIZE it. I would say the same as Dwai for the rest, but just add that complete realization has no impact on most daily life. Life is more or less the same seen from the outside.There are bills to pay, dentists, folding laundry, etc. It is the perspective of reality as it is seen and understood that shifts.

Correct.

You have this backwards. The "self' is completely comprehended when the "Self" is realized. Still... definitely do as you as you will, and stick by your guns. There will be realization or there won't.

Where are you quotes from? It IS impossible to have partial knowledge of the "Self", but I wouldn't interpret as you are. Either you HAVE it, or you don't. In the Tibetan tradition there is first introduction to the "nature of mind". This is a simple demonstration of what you are looking for and could be done for anyone who has meditated for a few weeks, or a month. You have an idea of what the true insight is, but it isn't the same as having complete knowledge. There is then bringing this introduction to as many moments of life as you can. Both this and the introduction could be forgotten completely and you could go back to your normal "dream" bound life. Sometimes there is a single moment of complete understanding. This is Stream Entry. You will ALWAYS know the how things truly are. After this, the illusion of being a self slowly drops away over a few years until: The "self" completely drops away as an illusion and there is only the "Self". This is seeing how things are "empty" ALL of the time. This comprehending of the limited "self" isn't necessary. I"m not honestly sure what it is you think there is to fully comprehend. I was a "self" for 45 years. I feel in retrospect I understood it pretty well. Any enlightened Buddhist knows what the "Self" is. This one does, for example, as well as what the "Dao" is. They aren't different.

Had to do a little googling to find the source of this text. https://2empowerthyself.com/about-2empowerthyself/ I could go into detail about why, but I don't know that I would recommend this person as a representative source of information on this topic.

Loved this whole posting you made, steve. Just wanted to add that in addition to many of these people being genuine dedicated they are amongst the most FRAGILE I have ever encountered... even those with seemingly the biggest egos. I remember one lady who was calling herself Tathagata. She was quietly "spiritual" in a contrived way. I heard some sniggering g at the audacity of her handle. Later, in the Q & A part of a dharma talk, she bravely shared a very emotional and private story which was still quite raw for her. Such genuineness and authenticity can be rare, but it is definitely what it takes in my opinion.

Dharma gates are boundless. It is really prajna that liberates. What makes a person realize the delusion of personhood could honestly be any thought or practice... or no thought or practice whatsoever. Speaking for myself, I was just driving my car. No spiritual activity taking place in the moment. I'd be curious to hear what others say... I have never met a person with realization that had the moment of Stream Entry while meditating, or doing any "spiritual" activity. Some part of me wonders whether having a regular practice but not being in the process of doing it is has some bearing on realization.

Trungpa has been quite some time. It's fair to evaluate those left on their own terms, IMHO - but I do get your point. That's alright. I figured that out from our previous discussions. I was just saying that there are few good eggs in your neighborhood. There is a story I'd be interested to hear. I did my share of Guru Yoga, but not in immediate proximity to realization. It's surprisingly good stuff. Had to look him up. Probably is friendly with the first Dzogchen teacher I worked with, Ngakpa Chogyam . He is a Welshman in the Dudjom Rinpoche lineage - they seem to have a couple of the same teachers. Nah. Ian has lead many retreats at Jikoji, in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California. I practiced there for a number of years. Indeed! All appearances in consciousness have the Buddha's face.

Hokoji is a Soto Zen temple out in Arroyo Seco. The Abbot is Ian Forstner. He is worth meeting. He isn't putting on a show, just a guy who builds houses and sees things as they are. It has been my great fortune to sit with him, and consult with him a number of times. There is a circle of the Trungpa chaps out there too that are certainly worth talking to. They are everywhere, really. The guys you are looking for don't usually promise you anything, and are generally kind and generous with their time. No big conferences or satsangs.

Who moves hands and feet? Where all dualities are brought to a featureless, luminous end, nothing.

In Western psychology we dredge of difficult experiences and feelings and discuss them over and over until we have a satisfying explanation and the feelings around them soften. The Vajrayana method is to get into open awareness/Dzogchen/Zazen meditation and bring them to mind when the mind is quiet and empty. Doing this until the thoughts around the experience don't really create further thoughts are feeling is the goal. It is VERY effective for issues of light to medium depth, though having a psychiatrist to work with as well is often beneficial for truly difficult, or deep-seated trauma. I recommend this method highly for working with obscurations.

I'm not sure where you meet your Buddhists and Advaita devotees, but this certainly isn't my experience. The ones I know are absolutely amongst the kindest people I have ever met - ESPECIALLY those that have realization.

Here's one them: My daughter's eyes were wide and she was white as a sheet, pounding on the dashboard of my car as I drove. It was clear to me that this was about as deep as her suffering had ever been in my presence. I calmly said, "It's alright honey, let's give this a moment to do its thing... don't resist it." I put my hand on her leg. She scrabbled at the stereo in tears trying to put some music on that might distract her from the panic and fear. She chose an album by the Rolling Stones - "Aftermath". As the music played the thought arose that it might not ever be something I could enjoy again. After 15 minutes or so she was able to begin to relax and her breathing slowed. She was sweaty... exhausted. We pulled over and hugged. During the whole thing my mind was quiet and clear. What to do or not to do was obvious. I was present with her and her pain, but at no point was it my pain. There was equanimity, and deep love and the wish to be helpful. What most don't realize is that often the most helpful thing is to "do" nothing at all, just acknowledge and be present. Empathy (as opposed to compassion in the Buddhist sense) gets in the way of being most loving and helpful. It often creates a focus on OUR suffering, rather than the suffering in the world or in someone else. My daughter, you, and everything else appear as separate entities, but also persistently have the quality of sunyata (emptiness) like everything else, including and especially "me". My daughter later thanked me for being calm and supportive and just listening.

Right? Yet... here we are both posting on a bulletin board about the ineffable. I'll have my Sisyphus with a dose of irony, thanks.