stirling

There is DEEPENING of the understanding, NOT further awakening. Aside from the initial Stream Entry and the understanding of "no self" (Arahat), the Stages aren't a hard and fast set of definite points, just a series of possible mileposts. The understanding of emptiness/non-duality just continues to deepen as time goes on even after "no-self". At some point it is really even impossible to characterize in words. This does NOT mean that the actual insight changes. Think of it like a deep sea diver. The diver gets to 50 feet. Then the diver gets to 100 ft. Then 200 ft. Each depth isn't a new understanding of what diving is, but a new experiential point.

I disagree. l appreciate that it is hard to parse if you don't know what you are looking at. While I might use different terms, I completely recognize his description and process. Realizing that what "self" is is not the body is a common way in. Turning the "I" back on itself is a common way to see this. Here he describes how what he really is is the awareness that sees the activity of the body and thoughts. Clear non-dual understanding. See how personality and "I" are two different things? Your personality doesn't GO anywhere, though it changes as insight continues to deepen. In Neo-Advaitic terms you are still (at least initially) the "dream character" in the world who chooses certain foods over others, or has emotions, but the "I" is always seen and understood to be apart from that.

My suggestion, since non dual understanding is a necessary step, is to let go of your cognitive dissonance about how it is presented and ideas about how it will or won't be, and make room for it to dawn on you. Once it is an "attainment" for you, you can see what it actually means to your practice and path. Arguing what it is or isn't from a position of avidya is just a waste of time. Your attempts to quantify the understanding, or put it in a box now, will absolutely limit the chance that it will happen at all. You obviously don't want that if this is an important step. I understand your identification with your dream. I also had many visionary dreams and experiences along the path, and many kept me engaged, so I valued them. My advice is to document them, and notice what they bring up for you in terms of your hopes, but also fears, but ALSO to hold them lightly - don't take them for any kind of absolute reality. Remember your fear of non-duality. It's valuable. Examine carefully what your fear is about, especially what you are afraid of "losing", so that you can examine that fear in the light of understanding and see what it now means in context.

To me this is a very clear account of "awakening". When he says "I" he does not mean his personality, or the separate person he had previously believed himself to be, but rather the awareness that exists underneath the illusory construct of his "self". He says: The "Self" and "I" he speaks of ARE this awareness. This is not an intellectual insight. I can understand that you disagree with the idea conceptually, but is this not clear?

The realization of a Karmapa would be that the body wasn't who they were, but instead that what they were was primordial awareness that doesn't depend on a body, or any other illusory construct for its existence. This last bit IS the insight upon realization.

7 Point Mind Training in Tibetan Buddhism is an example of a non-dual "moral" training. Worth investigating if you are open to it. https://www.amazon.com/Great-Path-Awakening-Commentary-Mahayana/dp/0877734208 Would I be correct in assuming that non-dual understanding will be a way station in your model of practice?

Sorry for the lateness of this reply, life has been... interesting. I personally don't believe the experience of Rigpa is different from tradition to tradition, but the way it might be described or contextualized might be. Someone with a different tradition or practice history might describe or notice certain characteristics as opposed to someone else's experience. I also think that the way the insight deepens depends to some degree on someones tradition/practice history, or perhaps more importantly, on the lack of attachment to those conditioned or believed experiences. Speaking for myself, I have noticed the characteristics of Advaita Vedanta, Bhagavad Gita, as well as Dzogchen and Zen in moment to moment experiencing, and have felt a sort of continuum from the beginning of it to this day perhaps starting with something that most resonated with a Advaita Vedanta feel and eventually moving to something most like the Vajrayana recognition all appearances are dharmakaya manifesting. When speaking about it all I personally favor neutral or plain language that seems most accurate to ME, rather than tradition specific language. Was your energetic experience at the "awakening" moment, or just during your practice history? I think there can be energetic experiences, but they are merely experiences - not related to the precipitation of the insight ultimately. I have met people from other traditions that have had kundalini or energy "experiences", but his was not my experience. I think having an energy experience could happen to someone in any tradition.

It is true that perceiving the world THROUGH concepts is one way to see it, but it isn't necessary. It is entirely possible to see and interact with the world without conceptualizing or creating models of the entirety of reality as it is. They may be measurable results with a satisfying internal consistency, but that doesn't mean that they adequately model reality as it is actually is any better than Newtonian physics does. It isn't that they don't "lie" it is just that they work within their narrow application. So, you are saying that scientific theories represent reality? Ask yourself this: Is it possible that a subset of factors could be used to model the entirety of the universe EXACTLY? Are all phenomena measurable? Is a measurement the event itself, or a correlation of the event? Is a flicker of electricity in the brain a thought? Does it mean that the brain is where the thought originates? Oh... it's fine. Think of the non-dual in this instance as phenomena which cannot be separated from each other because of their interconnected nature.

Mark, I happy to believe that the Nikayas sounds or reads different, or may even have the hallmarks of a text written with a depth of seeing into emptiness that no-one else has passed along. You see this a lot, actually. Seeing into emptiness doesn't always give one the ability to share it well. Having said that, I personally connect with some of the Mahayana sutras, Dzogchen, Cha'n masters, or Dogen more, but to each his own.

Did you go out to Boulder Creek, or meet Yeshe or Zopa? I never met Yeshe, but Zopa is an amazing person. I lived in Boulder Creek (and the Santa Cruz area) and was fortunate to be involved at Land of Medicine Buddha and Vajrapani, and later (more intensely) Lama Tharchin and the Vajrayana Foundation. I have sat with Lama Zopa, Steve Pearl, et. al. many times, and Lama Zopa was the host for the Dalai Lama the couple of times I met him. Zopa (and Pearl and especially Tharchin) are the real deal.

Everything I post is my lived experience.

I have also, and received a couple of empowerments from him (in groups). I would say that I have met a handful of "beings" that I could confidently say are realized (yes, I am aware this is an oxymoron). In all cases those "beings" can speak about what it means to have no-self from an experiential basis, not just by citing the works of others. Their understanding is a "lived" experience, and is instantly recognizable. I completely agree - absolutely nothing like one imagines. He recognizes suffering. I have seen him talk about the suffering of people and become overwhelmed. It was believable to me.

Nobody's identity is wiped away. The mistaken belief in the illusion of "self" is dissolved. This doesn't mean "anything is possible without limit" it means that whatever is happening now is the only reality, and that what happens next has never been up to us or the illusion of our agency. We aren't in control. What is happening now is the result of the conditions in this moment. Yes! BUT, imagine recognizing that everything you perceived was of the same fabric that you are... not as a belief, but as an understood reality. What if you could see, moment to moment, that you weren't separate from it? How would you feel about it all? What if you saw that parts of it suffered because they didn't realize that they had always been home?

You should be critical. No problem there. I haven't met any realized beings that posture or put themselves above others. As for the Dalai Lama, a tiny bit of googling finds this: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45521075 I am not an apologist for the Dalai Lama - but my limited experience is that he is truly compassionate in a way that few would truly understand.

The perspective with realization is the same as the perspective before, EXCEPT the obscuring layer of a personal self, past/future, space is wiped away. When suffering is recognized it is understood to belong to the WHOLE field of experiencing, so there is great compassion. While reaction to suffering might be signing a petition, helping someone up from the ground who has fallen, or a donation to a charity, it is just as likely to be resting in awareness while in action, and just being present WITH the being who is suffering, rather than trying to bring their needs, projected ideas of "helping", or opinions to the moment. The awakened "beings" I know are the kindest I know, by far, though they may have different ideas of how to react to suffering than you do. Does this look like someone who doesn't care or recognize suffering?

...just to clarify, do you mean would-be acolytes, or those with realization? Either way, this is the funniest thing in this thread!

~ Sri Aurobindo (1932) Definitely! This is what happens when there is an enlightened "person". This is what the "ten years", or "returning to the marketplace" are for, this learning to see that duality doesn't go anywhere, but that non-duality is always underneath.

Yes! And, I'd go so far as to say that non-dual understanding OBVIATES all questions and ultimately obliterates all relativities and stories.

Seeing all appearances as ultimately empty of intrinsic existence is just the base layer of seeing. It's not a special way of perceiving, and once seen and understood, no amount of tomfoolery, drugs, drink, sleeping, meditation or even death makes it go away. Many who see it for the first time say they "died". Why? Because they took a step outside of their perception of reality from the perspective of a "person" and realized that what "they" are continues without this illusory perspective. This idea of immortality is true, but no "person" is immortal and what survives HAS no agency. The emptiness, which is what "we" are, is what is immortal. Awakening is simply realizing what "I" really is. There is no "better" way to perceive... there is just perceiving. Body, emotion, and mentality don't GO anywhere, they are just realized to be the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. The deepening of non-dual seeing takes care of itself. There is no-one in charge of deepening it, or possible way to improve upon how it is. Meditation is a way to see how this could be reality, and repeated practice can be a way to stabilize this seeing, BUT there is always a moment where one awakens to what it is - sees outside of "self" and realizes that being has always happened without there being a "self" at all. Being as a "self" is a oxymoron. Just the opinion of an "accomplished nondualist", or "oxymoron". Sounds like... maybe. Is "anadamaya" an experiential insight, or something your read about? One is valuable, one merely casts a shadow worth investigation in meditation.

It would be easy to get lost in the idea that there are "pure" teachings, or that the teachings we read now are in any way like they were when they were first spoken or written, but it seems unlikely. They are hundreds, or even thousands of years old, probably weren't written down originally, and have been translated from languages we don't speak many times. They resonate because the "truth" that they point too has not been diluted, though we may not comprehend it fully. I believe that it is good to think of the teachings, like everything else, as dependently originated. The teachings appear as they are based on causes and conditions in this moment, suited to pushing your buttons, or engaging your mind NOW. This is when they are truly useful. Why not think of these recently-altered teachings as doing precisely the same thing (which they are)? This is not an endorsement for re-writing teachings, or an admonishment against it. Just a recognition of reality as it is.

Then the answer is extant.

What is the question?

There is no duality of samsara and nirvana because neither has ever existed. Samsara is the creation of the "self" and the thinking mind. There has always just been reality as it is, and reality is without a "self" and without the suffering of a "self". Obscuration hides this simple understanding. Awakening is seeing this, and eventually realizing that the daily phenomenal world isn't GOING anywhere. What shifts is how reality is seen. After insight there is everyday life, just not as you previously knew it.

All of that is worthy of examination, but I don't think it impacts Hahn's beautiful essay on the relative truth of emptiness. Besides, can't we consider that he might even be right? I am not taking a position, merely considering that it is worth examining such things and holding such things lightly. For what it is worth, I have chanted the Jikoji version of the Heart Sutra a gajillion times and enjoy its subtleties, but they don't bother me either. You might have read his talks on the Heart Sutra too. Kobun Book on the Heart Sutra In his examination he says: I believe Kobun implies something similar here, of course without re-writing the Heart Sutra itself... but based on the stories I have heard, it wouldn't be entirely out of character for him to do so! IMHO the truly important aspect of the Heart Sutra is that Prajnaparamita is the perspective by which we should appreciate reality. Resting in Zazen (open awareness) IS actualizing enlightenment. The words of the Buddha are amazing and important, as are the words of Thich Nhat Hahn, or Dogen, but embodied buddhas in this very moment exist, speaking from Prajnaparamita and opening the dharma gates for countless beings. Thanks for playing your part. BODHI SVAHA!

Well... it IS empty, but what is it empty OF is the real question. A Madhymaka Buddhist would tell you that it is empty of things that have an intrinsic nature, or an existence of their own as separate from other things. I think that this is a really nice way of understanding it: https://www.lionsroar.com/the-fullness-of-emptiness/