stirling

Trepanation - it's what's good for the nation!

How so? Aren't you throwing out the baby with the bathwater? How so? What danger?

Oh no... the baby and the bath water?!?! I must have stepped in it again. I assure you that what I am saying belongs here, and I am sorry if I have disturbed you. The topic of this thread is a Zen expression, "don't know mind", that is a conceptual description of the mind clear, still, and ready for anything, arrived at by allow the mind to come to a stop. It isn't a practice, concept, or religious belief (a baby in the bath water) it is precisely the lack of ANY effort or contrivance of the mind. It is mind "as it is", arrived at by allowing to come to a stop of its own accord. It is simply being enlightened mind in this moment. It is dropping process, technique and maps completely and finding enlightenment in this moment, if only temporarily. This is the essence of Zen. This is the concept of the "Gateless Gate", the title of a famous collection of koans, and subject of many spiritual quotes. The lesson of them is that true understanding or enlightenment is not a destination to be reached by passing through a physical or mental barrier, but an experience that transcends thought, "self", religion, practices, and fabrication. The title is a paradox: a gate that is no gate at all. A gate that you desperately wish to pass through, but can realize that you have always been inside of. It is a metaphor that appears again and again in non-dual traditions.

...assuming we accept the proposition that beings have "self" nature. Absolutely! The way to cooperate is to be transparent and without resistance as though you are not apart from it at all, in my understanding.

A map to where? Does anyone really need a map to here?

Meaning is an imputation devised by the thinking mind. It belongs to "YOU". Buddhism (like all other traditions) is a vehicle to realize something BEYOND conceptualization and the thinking mind. The vehicles themselves are empty of meaning, and ultimately NOT the realization. Some quotations might be fun! Realization only comes from EXPERIENTIAL gnosis. No amount of intellectual fabrication can get you there. Stop where you are. Allow the mind to be come still - here and now is where understanding happens.

Absolutely. Our story about the world (our karma) changes how we see it. The world, for example, is a fundamentally different place to a true optimist. Try this: In the morning, put a genuine smile on your face and walk through the world with that smile, greeting people with it, and allowing it to warm your view of the world. Ask yourself at the end of the day how it was. How deep is your "purity"? How deep is your set of beliefs, attachments, aversions, and story about the reality of how things are? No. It is seeing the world with something LESS. Done correctly it is seeing the world without your story about it. It is being in alignment with what is happening, and therefore ends our struggle (a better definition of "suffering").

Anywhere you were thinking of specifically?

Depending on what one might mean by "Existence" I would agree. In my definition, the existence of things and concepts we give the status of "separate" appear and disappear moment to moment. "Beingness", in my definition would be the simple presence of pure awareness that is underneath all thinking and doing by a "self". Brings to mind: From the perspective of enlightenment the phenomenal world can be both peopled by separate things and beings of various types or completely still and unitary, depending on which perspective one looks from. The unitary stillness is always present underneath the world of separateness. This is what Maharaj is pointing at. The panoply of observed phenomena DO arise from the unity/emptiness. I wouldn't go as far as saying it is any kind of purpose. It is just what happens. There are many ways of seeing the seemingly external world, but they are always right here, in my experience. There is nothing beyond, or somewhere else. Enlightenment always happens here, in this moment. There is nothing to do but stop fabricating your version of the outside world and rest in it, if you want to recognize it.

"Why?" implies some past or future, or someone to exist within a timeline. It is worth examining whether any continuity truly exists in this moment. Meditation (not a practice but actual stillness of the mind) would be the tool for this. See above. This moment is perfect and complete as it is, it is only the thinking mind that contrives ideas of "purpose" or meaning beyond what is visible right here, right now.

I'd like to hear more about your practice in Buddhism and Goetia too. I spent many years practicing in the Nyingma/Dzogchen tradition, and had success in "attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel".

Just to clarify "don't know" mind: The perfection of the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, the precepts, ad nauseum is prajnaparamita or "emptiness". "Don't know" mind is emptiness, resting in the absence of all beliefs, projections into the future, or stories of the past, and "self". It is the Tao, primordial being-ness. It does not rely on any practice methodology, religion, belief-system, philosophy or any kind of "doing" by a "self". This "being-ness" is how things actually are. It is simplicity itself. When the mind is still, look for any of these qualities and see that they only arise with the thinking mind as concepts. This is where our struggle with reality begins.

Welcome to the board GEQ!

Earl, We haven't interacted much but it was always clear to me that you had experience that was valuable to share. I takes a special kind of bravery, and more than that, a surrender, to admit those aspects of our humanness that live in the dark corners of our psyche. Your first post in this thread is is definitely the way to burn off some karma! My deep congratulations on your insight into your own mind. How fortunate that the way through is all around you! Deep bows from me, sir. I look forward to seeing your avatar on the board again.

Welcome Iman!

Just going to pull-quote this one: This is now you see what is "real". It's going in my file of quotes. _/\_

Yes! Just to riff on that one: Your story about the world and your "self" is the cause. Stop telling the story - no karma. Complete realization is the end of the story and the teller. Look around the place where you currently are. Everything is in the process of change, arising and passing moment to moment. There IS no center. Anything that imagines that it is by some miracle separate from anything else generates karma.

Thanks for putting this one up, Mark! The lineage and practices of the Buddha (as described in the earliest documents we have, created some 500 years after his death) are not, on the surface, the same as those of later Buddhist traditions. Having said that, I think is important to see how they actually DO point to the same eventual illumination, and are much more similar than they may seem at a casual glance, or without deep practice. Before we start, there are a few things I wanted to clarify: I think he is also intent on pointing out the similarities! Absolutely. The jhanas are "states" in that they are impermanent like anything else. What we are ultimately looking for is NOT impermanent, but always present. The jhanas ("concentrations") can be thought of as radio stations you can tune into in the experience of meditation. It is possible with some training to come across them as you meditate, and they DO have qualities that become increasingly similar to nirvana, but they don't really lead there - they just give you some idea of where the map leads. You CAN experience temporary absence of the "cravings" - but it isn't complete insight into them. They are an "introduction" to it. What we are looking for is direct experience and recognition of no-self/emptiness which NO practice precipitates. I think the implication here is that Suzuki disagrees, and rightfully, I would say, with what most teachers say. Most meditators with even a few months of experience sitting at least 30 or so minutes at a time will have been through and past most of the jhanas and my have even experience cessation without realizing what they were looking at. Cessation is what you rest in, and continually reestablish in shikantaza. ...and SO much more... no time/space/self present when the mind is "pure". No-one to have will or intent, or control any phenomena. No body to control. The answer is that shikantaza is enlightenment in this moment. Where there is perfect being-ness shikantaza there are temporarily no cankers. This can be seen in your own practice. Ask yourself, when the mind is clear and still are there “craving for the life of sense”, “craving for becoming”, and “craving for not-becoming"? Cessation is possible in this moment, and so is insight into it.

Training the mind is a gradual practice - patience and forbearance are needed for success. How long have you been doing sitting practice? Usually once you have been sitting for 20-30 minutes a day for a week or so, you will start to have moments where whatever technique (watching the breath, etc.) drops away and the mind is briefly still. Have you noticed that happening? Once that begins, you can start to just notice that the mind becomes still, and rest in that stillness for a while until you notice that the narrative mind has become re-established. When you notice that the narrative has begun again, go back to your technique, until the stillness returns. Eventually you will find that the stillness comes up more and more. Don't grasp the stillness, or try to make it happen, just remain curious about it. Non-attachment to the stillness makes it become more frequently present. The stillness is what you are looking for. Eventually you will be able to rest the mind in stillness for minutes at a time, simply watchings thoughts arise and pass. After yet more time you will learn to dis-identify with the thought process and instead identify as the still awareness that watches the thoughts. If I can clarify further feel free to message me.