Spaceofawareness

I have heard enlightenment described as “cessation”. It is described as the seeing through of maya or illusion. The illusion being this world and it’s suffering. From a more Vedic context, it is when one realises they are Brahman, their sense of individuality drops away and world of luminosity and emptiness remain. Some describe all beings as already being enlightened, yet their enlightenment is hidden or covered by the projecting and veiling power of this illusory existence. in all contexts, there is a seeing through the illusory world of suffering, the world is seen through, as is the construct of the self. Thats my very limited grasp of this. But in order to know where you are going, you need to know roughly what it is, or you may not realise when you find it. you need an ontology to put it in context.

I’ve heard some people say it could be the nervous system, and or the endocrine system (hormones).

I am wondering, were you lost in the fear, or did you remain present? I assume the latter, as you had the presence of mind to defuse the situation and not become reactive. Overall I’d say it was wise. When fear responses kick in, everything naturally becomes heightened, and our focus narrows naturally. Nature chooses for us, whether we can remain calm and collected or whether the bodies natural defences take over, but it seems altogether you remained true.

One thing I would ask, and it may be off base, but as these emotions are arising quite intrusively, and it seems you are averse to these emotions, are they attached to any current unfinished business? What I mean is, are you trying to escape from the emotions by using meditation as a means to “zap” the emotions? If these emotions are simply left over waves in your being which no longer serve any purpose, then disregard my question, but typically, emotions point to something which we aren’t addressing in our lives. In this way, no amount of observing would be able to disconnect you from an emotion with an active source or root. I am not saying, follow the emotion and allow it to dictate your life, but maybe if it continually arises, there might be something which needs dealing with. Alternatively, self inquiry could be useful. Asking yourself if there is emotion, and it is observed but with no distance, how is it this can be known. Could there be a deeper space of knowing in which this is appearing, and can you at least notice this space exists when the emotions subside? Try bringing yourself back to the senses, such as observing sight, allowing colour, shapes, movement to come to you without naming it. Sitting quietly maybe sounds also come to you, merely just observing the quality and character of each sense experience. And definitely grounding this all in the felt sensation of the breath, which is the key to all of this. Become intimately linked to your breath, even when not sitting. Notice your breathing throughout the day whenever possible. But don’t make this a forced thing, and don’t tell yourself “keep noticing the breath”. Be kind to yourself, and allow the sensation of breath to come to you, and stick with you like a shadow, like you always have one eye on the breath. This might all be obvious stuff, but it sounds like going back to basics and just grounding yourself in this could be useful. Additionally, it could be you have been trying too hard. You might be caught up in doing this so much that it has become effortful which is antiproductive to this. Don’t force the attention on the breath, attention is the intentional and wilful directing of our consciousness towards a target. This is the “active”, effortful way of observing, but is not what you want to use. You also have a “passive” way of observing, which although can be gently directed, normally just allows the senses, or even the mind to direct it. This is what you need to become more in touch with. Rest more in the passive form of observation, just noticing things. This passive observing is already more spacious and detached compared to active attention. That’s not to say that emotions won’t rattle it, those emotions can and will overshadow this briefly, but, just make sure you come back to this passive observing space. Emotions shouldn’t be the target for now. If they arise, try to notice them, and come back to the breath in this passive observing. And if you do get caught in the emotion, it’s okay. You might be lost in the emotion for a little while. What is most important, is noticing when this has happened, not that it happens or not. Then, once you see clearly you were caught in that emotion, come back to the breath. Another thing which might be useful is, instead of only doing this when doing sitting meditation, bring it into your day. For instance, when you are preparing dinner, observe the cutting, the actions, just notice that you are doing them. And all the while, link this noticing back to the breath. If you are putting our the washing, focus on the way your body moves, grabbing the wet clothes, grabbing a peg, etc. If you are picking up the coffee cup to take a sip, observe the movement of your hand to the cup, the sensation of of the cup touching your lips, the sensation of swallowing the coffee. Also notice, did you choose to pick up the coffee cup, or did it just happen? For all the mundane tasks in your life, do this. After a while it will become second nature, you will carry this mindfulness with you everywhere, like a shadow or an echo. But once again, don’t force any of this.

It seems the saying “turning the light around” has pretty pervasive usage in eastern traditions, through Buddhism, Zen as well as daoism. It’s obvious that this term has been in wide usage throughout eastern spirituality, that’s not to say that this is what the golden flower is referring to though. The internal alchemy side of golden flower seems distinct from any awareness based practice, it’s purifying and merging, circulating, etc. It does seem much more bodily focussed, yet it does also seem to incorporate awareness to guide the process, to shed light on the process. Obviously one must utilise their internal sensations to conduct the process, which requires one to direct awareness into the body. The golden pill supposedly is formed in the body, but then must be finally brought back to the source to be ingested, or merged back into awareness so the inner child can be “born”. It seems light has long been associated with awareness, so SotGF would be a deviation from this traditional usage. What is interesting is, apparently the Chinese characters for golden and flower, when placed on top of one another, make together the symbol for light between them. I can’t confirm this as I can’t read such characters, but supposedly these kind of hidden meanings pervade much of the text. So maybe the actual secret is the secret of light, or maybe inner light.

Okay, as I said, I like Cleary’s, going to give Jung and Wilhelm another go though, but I seem to remember it being a bit clunkier.

Thanks guys

Honestly not sure, Cleary talks himself up compared to Jung and Wilhelm. What would you suggest? I found it clearer than the Jung version, and without his aspects of the shadow being reflected in it, though I am probably partial to it due to it resonating with the more Xing related elements in my background. Though it seems much of the neidan is focussed on Ming aspects, I have also heard that the two are intertwined, or at least, work together and maybe lead to each other.

From GF Cleary version, questions and answers section, pg 66. . This reminds me more of awareness, we have an inner eye, that is one way I conceptualise awareness. The elixir field. So it seems what this elixir is made of, is within awareness, or the mind’s eye, or is made OF awareness. Or maybe, by field, they mean the daoist usage of the term field, which refers to the ground of potential which contains everything required. So the elixir might not actually be just awareness, yet awareness or the mind’s eye is one ingredient, tool, or part, which is somehow manipulate, circulated, etc. when you can’t even trust the text it makes it is hard to interpret this stuff. But, surely what rings true, that which resonates with you, should be trusted and followed. There is just too much in the way of like freeform said, the inclusion of awareness based influences of thought, to just pass off as tampering. Yet, do we think maybe interventions and changes have been made to the text to the point where the main line has been altered beyond repair? Why include these awareness focussed references, throughout the text, if they aren’t essential to the practice? Just an attempt to change systems of spiritual influence?

You feel like an observer of your thoughts? I remember about a year about when I had what could be called an awakening, the way I characterised it was, I had become the observer, which was distinct from the “narrator” (my words) which I could observe. It was more just the realisation of this. I had never really had an invasive inner voice, as some people do, like my wife, as she has told me, she is CONSTANTLY talking to herself. Yet now over a year later, the narrator seems to have almost vanished. For me, this hasn’t been a problem, due to it being closer to my nature. I can obviously still form thoughts, both internally and externally, but, I am very rarely dogged by them. I notice them when they arise, though not quite as quickly as when it first began. But it seems like you have a fondness for this inner voice which you have lost a connection with. It seems by your description that it was very much linked to your imagination. I used to have imaginary conversations, re-run scenarios in my head, even create non existent scenarios between myself and people in my life. It was less narration and more like a slide show with subtitles. But I would get lost in the imaginings, not always in a good way. It would sometimes affect my mood, and my relationships to people to which the imaginings were about. The mind is always wanting to know what is going to happen, trying to stay 1, 2, 10 steps ahead, and does this by literally projecting into possible futures. This can only happen when you are not present. You imagination “runs away”. So, on the one hand, you may have lost this connection to the inner voice which you have such fond memories of, yet, there must also be benefits to this.

Just read through that thread above re MCO. Coming at this from a complete newbie to internal alchemy, qigong, or any kind of qi exercises, where would you suggest I start, I don’t necessarily have the ability to see a teacher in person at least for the next few years, due to family commitments, however, I do most of my practices while I work, which sounds unlikely, however I have found ways to integrate training into my work schedule due to its repetitive nature, which allows me a freedom of awareness. i know this stuff needs to be done while sitting, in a meditative setting, so I do have time in the evenings, though I have found meditation difficult at these hours due to falling into oblivion, which is why I have gravitated towards a more life integrated approach. i would appreciate your experience in these matters, is there any way a person can guide themselves in these practices with videos or text, or is it so esoteric and individual that a teacher is a must? I consider myself a fairly intuitive person, however my mind body connection isn’t as strong as it could be, I feel like that might be a good place to start. Any ideas? Thanks.

Of course I respect your privacy on this matter, I come at this purely as a seeker. Thanks, I have heard of the mco, though I’m not sure I fully grasp it.

Okay. As a long term practitioner of the golden flower method, can you share insights, developments, thoughts, feelings, gleanings etc? Where has this work taken you? What has it achieved for you?

So in your opinion, does this working with inner light come with the same risks as kundalini type of work? Is kundalini awakening or experience necessary to do this neidan inner light work?

What I don’t understand though, is much of the golden flower text actually mentions mindfulness, and thus the application of awareness to the mind. specific parts talk of “stopping and seeing” which quite obviously refer to the process of interrupting awareness from distraction and observing a distraction, unless my interpretation is way off. it’s pretty clear at least some part of GF is aimed at awareness practices, yet it also has the neidan side which you both mentioned. Yet it doesn’t specifically differentiate the two practices, even though they seem rather distinct, at least to me, though I know little of neidan directly. Not sure if it was intentional to make this vague on the part of the author, or maybe the text has been meddled with over time. here is an excerpt from chapter 3: It seems there are at least two interpretations of what turning the light around is focussed on in the GF.

Thanks Creation, after delving further into this text and topic, it seems to be more clear to me that you are correct, though Thomas Cleary’s interpretation of GF seems more inline with an awareness interpretation, yet the unknown and more esoteric parts of the text still seem to allude to that which you mention.

Awareness can know itself, but only like a shadow of itself, never knowing directly, because awareness has no characteristics, anything that can be seen is not it, it is what sees. But it can be felt as a presence of self. Normally, we aren’t aware of ourselves, only of the world, but awareness can “feel” itself, which is how it knows itself. It is a naturally pleasant state, calm, peaceful, and yet completely alert of the world. If you can watch yourself always, you will be it.

Not at all. GF talks of the “celestial eye” which I think is actually what I am describing. But it seems that is just the starting point. So what I mention is just the basis of what this Neidan work talks about. I don’t actually know anything firsthand about neidan. Maybe I am just not there yet. But what I speak of does seem to be part of GF. I have stumbled across Nathan Brine, still evaluating whether it’s all bs or something there. i come at this from a skeptics POV, unfortunately it’s just a perspective I have to work from. I assume something which sounds ridiculous is, unless I experience otherwise. Yet at the same time, I am open to new things. I am open to discovering this new world of neidan. I place the burden squarely on myself to discover any truth in claims. Most people wouldn’t even believe what I have discovered about the nature of reality, so I also realise my view is an extreme or not normal one, yet it seems there is much more to discover potentially.

I think it depends on the person and how active their mind is, and how identified as ego they are. For a person deeply identified, it might take a lifetime, for a more reflective person, maybe the 100days mentioned in the text is time enough with consistent practice. If your effort is like water, acting only via the natural forces which move it, yet always returning to the most neutral place, it shouldn’t take a lifetime to realise, but consistency and the continual returning I would imagine are of utmost importance to stabilisation. My basic understanding of the golden flower method is the discovery of your true nature as the space of awareness and the moving into this space and realisation of your nature as this space. but first one needs to realise or notice this space before they can even move into it, Which is why the light must be turned around because the space will never be noticed outside of Oneself.

That’s very interesting. I haven’t heard of that method. Just to clarify, when I say the light was turned around, I don’t refer to light appearing inside visually, but rather the light refers to awareness itself, and the turning around refers to instead of awareness being constantly directed outwardly, it becomes looped back on itself, through paying attention to things like the breath, thoughts, etc. after a while, it has a sense of itself, then, this sense of self seems to detach from the sense of normal identity with the body and thoughts, so that they become more as objects without any real meaning, the world seems to be dream like. A spacious detached awareness seems to unfold, and a constant sense of presence of awareness, like a shadow hanging there always, which seems to be awareness feeding back onto itself. This is is how I understand turning the light around, though it is my interpretation. I have seen other interpretations leaning more towards the microcosmic orbit, of flowing energies, etc. I have no experience with these kind of sensations or practice, my interpretation is purely awareness based. The further methods describing golden elixirs and practices to achieve immortality seem very esoteric and likely unless one learns directly from someone initiated in the practice you are bound to go down the wrong path. What the aim actually is, I am not sure, the extension of life, and longevity, improved health etc. I’m currently reading a book called “Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard” by Kaiguo, Chen, which goes into the Taoist teachings of the dragon’s gate school of complete reality, which the golden flower was supposedly based on. Some of the practices and claims of attainment are pretty extraordinary, likely much of it embellished, but it’s a fun read. I just want to get to the bottom of this internal alchemy thing, what exactly is possible, what’s fantasy, and what one should be aiming for.

Has anyone had much luck actually engaging this reversal process of awareness through deliberate practice? I know for myself, I stumbled upon it, it simply happened, and it was almost as though I instinctively knew or was being pulled towards this reversing, yet when it eventually went after some months, no amount of deliberate attempts to turn the light around seem to engage the correct method of relaxing back into the reversal. It seems like it must be an organic, non deliberate process, which subverts the intentional modes of being.

Thanks, I will look into that one. So is there a general consensus on the interpretation of what the GF is trying to achieve? Is it purely an internal awareness practice, rather than the energetic practice like the Wilhelm/Jung interpretation seemed to imply? To me it seems to imply more awareness focus rather than chi related. Especially the call to ‘turn the light around’.

Does anyone have much knowledge about the descriptions of internal alchemical symbolism in GF, such as the firing process? Much of it reminds me of the ‘book of balance and harmony’, which goes into much detail but is a little too symbolic and above my ability to decode into practical advice.

Thanks thelerner, I hope to soak up the residual wisdom from this place and members, and maybe in kind give back at some stage.

Hello all, I’m very glad to have found an online community which seems to share some of the ideas, practices, and essential experiences which I have been having over the last year or so. My story begins with me searching for a way to be comfortable with seemingly meaningless work. My job is one which is repetitive and physical, however also rather complex. It requires a high degree of precision. Yet over the years I have mastered it, to the point where “I” no longer need to be in charge. The work does itself. You could say this already reflects a reversed version of the Taoist way of “action through non-action”. So while it might seem a good thing to be free of needing to act, this leaves one with a lot of time to think, something which I wasn’t comfortable with. My mind would run off on long and sometimes chaotic lines of thought, often into paranoia. This was due to an inability to just be, even while I was doing something, like working. So I turned to distraction. First it was music, but, after that was exhausted for novelty, i turned to podcasts. This kept my mind occupied while my body worked. I was (and still do sometime) learning and jumping down long rabbit holes of thought, discussions, etc. while this managed to calm the mind, unfortunately my interests became more crystallised, and there is only so much content one can find on a particular thing before it’s exhausted. i was consuming these podcasts in a very western obsessive manner. When the pool was exhausted, I was back to my paranoid craving mind, which was sometimes unbearable. I listen to these podcasts on wireless headphones, to avoid wires getting tangled while I work. But, sometimes they may run out of charge, or fall out, leaving me interrupting my work process in order to fix the problem. i noticed this in myself, and saw it as an issue. So, I decided to defy my mind’s need for this consumptive habit, and one day, simply stopped listening. But, instead of being lost in thought, I was focusing on what I was doing, but not like I was doing it, because I had already formed these automatic behaviours which allowed me to be an “observer”. So as I observed myself working, I would simply watch the movements being performed, the sensations of the movements. The sensation of the movements of the limbs in space, making contact with the objects in the world. All the while i would also be aware of my breath. I had done one session of mindfulness prior, and found it to be useful for quieting my mind. As this was happening, I noticed I felt more “present”, and my mind wasn’t wandering as much. But, I also noticed when my mind did start to go off on its tangents, “I” could observe it, but it felt different this time, not so much like “I” was thinking those thoughts, but more like they were appearing, and I was becoming aware of them. As this happened a few times, slowly I felt a change and an opening up of awareness. But awareness also had some kind of sensation of itself. I began to rest in this state of self knowing awareness. While working, I would be observing the world, the body, the thoughts, but all the while, feeling like this observer of everything, aware of itself. This followed into driving between jobs, driving behaviour happened with little mental help (thanks to GPS). It seemed my awareness was separating from sensations, almost like the sensations were in another bubble on the surface of me, this bubble of awareness. There seemed to be some kind of boundary which was forming between awareness and sensations and thoughts. There were times of great peace, contentment, and, inherent meaningfulness. Nothing else needed to be happening. I had previously struggled with the meaninglessness of doing the same thing over and over for years. But now, it seemed infinitely worthwhile, simply to be there in the moment. This carried on for months. I noticed I could observe bad habits and seemingly with this focusing of awareness, squash them as they arose, or sometimes, before. The same was possible with negative emotions, or even negative reactions to pain. The light of awareness seemed to overcome any negativity. As this process unfolded, I also noticed I was becoming more and more detached from the world. Not through resistance, but due to the quieting of the egoic tendency to reach out in the world. It felt like to remain as this awareness, the ego had to be shut down. This became a problem, as, being part of the world, one must also interact with the world to remain in balance. I my mind inherently knew this, because I began to struggle to remain in this awareness after a few months, some days would be clearer than others, the ego seemed to be merging back with awareness, but, as this happened, awareness was no longer pure, and would get lost in the trials and tribulations of the ego and its reactive tendencies. After a while, I no longer felt I was this pure light of awareness, and felt like I was back where I started. But, the difference being, the awareness still feels like it’s there in the background, but I appear in it, along with the ego and everything else. As such everything is watched, but, when I look for the sense of being here, all there is is that awareness, with no sense of presence, compared to before it felt very close, then when detached it felt like I was this awareness. This brought me to a Taoist text which I stumbled across, the secret of the golden flower. It seemed to be speaking to my experience somehow, especially the call to “turn the light around”. This was what it felt like when awareness had this sense of presence, like it could somehow know itself at all times, yet not phenomenally. It was never an act of effort, but always a relaxing back into what was already here, a zooming out of a kind. It felt like home. So now I find myself knowing the light, wanting to turn it back around, but I feel there are forces which want to unfold in another way first, a kind of transcending and including. The transcendence occurred, which gave a view of the world and the ego and body, but now, it feels like I need to reintegrate all of that back into this awareness. So, after searching different practices and spiritual traditions, I find myself lead to Taoism, which seems to inherently contain this transformational and inclusive practice at its essence. I seek to know more and to understand the way this organism is seeking to unfold and flower. Thats my story, I look forward to learning from you all and interacting. peace.