Shadow_self

Nonsense - this is data collection

Unfortunately The more you quote me (or matters i have discussed here), the more I end up having to post back to correct your incorrect comprehension of it (Not for your sake, for others in fact) So once you can stop doing both of those things, and move on from it, we should be just fine Peace

All knowledge from all time = omniscient Ive added nothing, and I never would. Who I know, what ive seen and what attainments they have I can assure you, is something I will not be discussing with you I save that for people who demonstrate good manner, good ethics, respect, and the other hallmarks of cultivation I dont see any of that on display here, so that door is firmly closed to you If only.... Ive asked you multiple times to leave it. Lets see if you're actually able to do so this time

I suppose it depends on the school? some of the rationale for the "proof" in these schools im talking about is below Its an interesting topic for sure You'd have to post a description of first jhana from your own perspective and then id be able to contrast I can elaborate a little on that below The tradition : yes, in a manner of speaking My practice currently: Nope, thats a long way above my paygrade, Jhana 1 is the only thing I am focused on for now (along with some other stuff) Aha but it is, in these practices. The short explanation would be related to causality, and indeed to dependant origination In one practice we use specific physical locations on the body as an access point to jhanic states This hopefully is a hint into the "form" and formless" terms you hear so often Interesting, perhaps there might be something you would share about that? Aha, thats a tricky topic, Im not well versed, its so beyond my paygrade but Ill give it a shot It has to do with the focal point of conciousness as far as I know. The reasons the changes happen physically is due to the energetic mechanic, because the reality is, that energy is the bridge between form and formless, or put another way, conciousness and matter The other reason why 4th Jhana being so important because around that area is where the causal body is being tuned into and thats where everything starts to go full fairytale mode (reality completely breaking down around the person) This might be taken in line with what I mentioned earlier about dependant origination Curiously, theres an energetic mechanic that I never understood about the whole manipulation of causality, until I came into contact with the Daoist teachings. I definately cannot detail that except to repeat what freeforms has already said If you consider what the Yin aspect of the soul does, So as that Yin part of the soul is what allows us to grow and transform, the key word here being transform, then what you can take away from that is that it is not only governing form and organisation (ie keeping us incarnate), but also, reorganization I would impore you to contemplate this in line with dependant origination and I think certain things will start to make more sense Thats as much as im willing to detail, and again, only because its already on the board, just in a disorganised fashion Im sure theres some fun stories there That would be beyond what I could say in public im afraid _/\_ (P.S forgive me for overly quoting freeform. He's just made it very easy for me to speak on things that I honestly dont know if I should. Seeing as he has already, its better to stick it there so im just not the one putting it out there, rather just repeating/elaborating upon it)

The only reason I quoted you earlier was to let you know you completely misrepresented what he was talking about A practitioner that emits visible light at a certain stage Now that we've reached clarity on the matter, the rest of the post does not require a reply, except to state that freeform never made such a claim about being omniscient Not once, Never Here again you seem to be having trouble with comprehending what hes saying, and im unwilling to keep clarifying matters for you So, best of luck, and Peace

No, Im just using what hes already posted in public, because if I do not, I may end up speaking on matters im not allowed to. But seeing he made it public beforehand - I think its ok to talk about it. Im posting his quotes for two reasons 1. To show you someone else knows about this 2. To make sure my backside is covered by knowing that the information is in the public sphere already I agree, see the point about visible light. I think you'll find its you having the issue around comprehending his statements. Im crystal clear on it (as are most others) I agree. As of right now, oddly I appear to have had to occupy the role of a translator Which is bizarre, given his words are in plain English Im definately not doing that But what hes said is true regards the light etc, im just confirming his statements

Fortunately, you do not need to believe me, he left his own words behind for you to read quite literally Hopefully the 3rd one will clear up the issues around whether the light manifesting is visible to the naked eye or not Im not exaggerating at all, nor was he My judgement is quite clear actually Ive been exposed to things you have not. Its appears to be bothering you Which is totally ok. I dont mind you accusing me of things

Its nothing to do with what i think to be totally honest @freeform is a personal friend, and we have had discussions outside of whats posted on the main board. We have had what i consider detailed discussions outside of the public areana I know exactly what he is talking about. Unless you have had those same discussions, I believe you do not After that, anything you post regarding his words is quite frankly, not representative as regards what he was trying to relay to the public However, I personally suggest you ask him upon his return. . Im sure he'll be willing to give you a friendly, but clear definition as far as what he means is concered (if it was not already clear of course)

The clarification was around emitting visible light, as your extended thematic analysis of what freeform meant was something that I felt needed context, so that everyone was on the same page about what his statement was referencing

@stirling @dwai Just a brief note on this I would hope that my mentioning of this topic comes across as a description of what takes place in certain closed door lineages,. Its simply intended to be respectful discussion regards what does happen in countries in SE Asia, and to give some insight into it I was pretty sure that goes without saying, but a certian individual seemed to be confused when compreheding the posts, and seemed to think otherwise. As a point of clarification, ive made it quite clear these lineages are closed to the public in general. So I am not talking about a public thing. Also , and this is important. Please note that I mentioned usage only. I never at any point mentioned ingestion, and by proxy, did not advocate or encourage anyone to do so Moreover, the usage I was referring to spans various applications and I was not specific at all. Heres an example of usage. Sometimes it is embedded into the core of a ceremonial blade handle, in a protective casing for various ritualistic purposes. Its sometimes sealed in with gold These riituals are broad and can be applied to several cases, including illness in the case of the more magical aspects of the traditions Anyway i hope either of you two would let me know if there is a problem. I am happy to listen to either of you, or the mods I also hope the person who became very anxious and concerned, has had their fears put to rest. I definately do not wish to cause anybody any mental anguish, especially anyone who could be easily upset

Im all for experience Depending on the tradition, there are various uses for jhana. In the one I can speak on, its not only important. You cant get anything meaningful done without it. Much of the foundation training is basically working up to jhana, and takes a long time In this respect , 1st jhana would be verbatim whats mentioned here. Thats what my training involves You might take issue with the lesser, non public lines then, but i can assure you, its very much as thing. Much like the strike of ling some of it starts in the inner vision. Eventually, that changes and things do manifest physically. I have to be honest. This kind of thing is beyond the scope of what most people are willing to believe. Thats understandable. All I can do is tell you its as real as real can be. No, these line are far less accessible You could group them under "boran kammathanna" though thats just a catch all term for "former practices" They exist in various scatteirngs around south east asia, but also, there are people in the west that are access points into the tradition. This goes back to my point about terms like jhana, kundalini, enlightened, awakened and so on In the lines Ive mentioned, there are very clear markers of this. They always tend to manifest physically in some way If you cannot demonstrate the markers, you do not have that attainment. For example, if you are enlightened, you will radiate light visibly. If you are not then you wont. There are manyother non physical things that happen too, but if the transformation/attainment is pure, it will extend right down into the physical body. If it has not, then you have not reached that state I understand that sounds cutting, or rather mechanical, but, thats quite literally how it is in these traditions that im talking about Fame and attainment are often not always related. Mantak Chia is one fine example if you look at what @freeform mentioned about emitting light visibily past 4th Jhana, is it really surprising At 5-7 its rainbow body 8-9 it is light body Im sure you know the traditions view on such things, then you are probably aware, things like the rainbow body are not figurative, they are literal. Relics are often left behind after the rainbow body after al Working with physical substances, and using conciousness as a means to transmute, alter etc. The two go together. In fact, at the level im talking about, they are inseparable The real thing is quite a living tradition. Just well hidden That depends on who you ask. Ive a bit of insight and experience around death, so for me Ive got a good grasp on the mechanic, and view it differently that most people. Others might not feel the same Generally speaking the people ive seen working with physical substances and internal work are usually either involved in Weizza traditions (as @freeform talked about) or regional variations across South East Asia. For example, Thai Lanna Sorcery also has various overlaps with both the Weizza Lines, and others in parts of Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Cambodia and Laos This type of stuff is basically closed to the public, unless you know the right people, and have the "destiny" to meet them. That sounds bizarre, but its a thing. Many of the high level practitioners have the ability to see into the casual realm, so, they would be more or less able to discern full cause and effect I understand the point you are making Which is one reason why i mention the importance of the path of subtraction What I am talking about is always strictly alchemical though . Ive definately seen the body of people go through transformation. Theres a whole other topic there PS

Indeed it is, but sometimes it can cause confusion. Jhana is definately one of those, and Im nowhere near as informed as others on the topic Sounds more like the Highway (to Hell ) Of course this was the point I made in the previous post. There would be some signs of jhana entry that are observable in the types of traditions we mention In that case, the sign is indicative of the level of attainment. Of course one can have rather unstable experiences of someting, but that does not mean they have "attained it". I gave one such example in my last post It would be hard to detail all the light based phenomena, and im certainly no expert. In reality, I shouldnt even know about the one I mentioned, only its happend my teachers (thats around the 2nd) Its an unruly, temporary, spontaneous state, which is why one needs to be away. Im not sure its relative to all lines of Theravada, but the alchemical ones im familair with, yes Now, @freeform mentions the 4th jhana here, and Im of the opinion he's talking about something much more stable in this instance. Theres a few things he's said here Id need to ask him in private to confirm, but if my suspicions are correct then thats exactly what hes talking about, and it jives with something else ive been told in private "immortal"/physics/self/time breaking down : In this case, I believe what he means is all these things break down in the vicinity of the person, for others to percieve External alchemy, as far as practice goes in the traditions I undestand, only works with the internal development done alongside it The people engaging in it can not only further their own practice, but help others People have been known to have cancer (amongst other ailments) cured with mercury (of all things) when the right person has transformed the substance via conciousness

Its an understandable point Dwai (thought theres no freeform camp. Or,, if there is, hes a terrible leader because hes been missing almost a year None of us actually train for siddhi, they do arise. But they are markers of something, and thats the key point. In our circles at least, it is well accepted that when actual transformation occurs, it pierces every aspect of the being, For schools, and practitioners who think like this, we use the physical manifestations of abilities as a sign that an actual transformation has occured. Thats all really Ill give two examples below and illustrate for anyone who might wonder what I mean Ill stick with ones that @freeformalready brought up, so no lines are crossed Below he mentions the jesus-y ones, like changing wine into water He elaborates here, by saying it is a form of Qi emission. I also know how to do the beginnings of that one (and so do some of my friends) . It isnt really as miraculous as it sounds to be honest. It's a test to check how well certain aspects of the training are going If successful, There should be no need need to do it again, its already been demonstrated I am capable of it Anything after that is just a waste of energy . If I fail, then more training, and perhaps rechecking to see what might be the issue. revisit it at a later date Now to revert back to the point about transformation A while back, I had an development, and it's known to give rise to a number of transformations (some very profound even). Sure enough, I started to develop an ability, but I have very little control of it This is a sign that the transformation is happening (As its manifest) however, as I cannot control it, its not a stable thing at all. In fact, its very sporadic, and problematic. Causes me issues often enough If you contrast that with the earlier point made about the lightning strike of ling, people need to be out of sight of the public while thats in "unstable mode" Otherwise it can cause all sorts of problems So in my own case, something needs to change Most likely, I need a retreat or something to really dip into that specific aspect of development, stabilize the transformation, and move onto the next thing. So in this case, its more of a diagnostic tool to see how to best support the practice, and ensure development continues rather than getting stuck and causing issues In both cases, the abilities were never aims, or even discussed really. Just something that comes along as we move down the road of training

Both freeform and I (though different lines) have somewhat similar understandings of Jhana. Its been a while since we last spoke, but from what i glean, his interpretation is similar to my own There are tests/confirmatory signs etc. before freeform left, he gave some insight. One example is below Thats above my paygrade, you'd need to get specifics from him. Pretty sure from he said 72 hours would be the line for 2nd Jhana. You can also see that visible light phenomena is one such sign of it. I wasnt given a number, im just informed its several days, because its beyond my paygrade (way beyond) My training is different to his im sure , its just the Jhanas where I see very strong similarities (they seem near impossible to most) What we are both crystal clear on one thing though, and he never told me I had to find it out in a far more shocking manner, was that indeed, people of a certain degree of attaiment, do in fact emit a visible light! I later came to find out that wasnt limited to just one of my teachers. Its simply a sign you've managed a certain degree of attainment The other stuff freeform mentioned, things like transforming substances are also things that are known to me. In some cases highly developed states of conciousness are used in tandem with external substances to purify them for usage, and can be used for all manner of ailments and progress in practice Mercury (actual mercury) is one such example in many of the lines of Buddhism in South East Asia Hopefully if we keep tagging @freeform he'll return He's far better position to answer you than i am

That one in particular from above baihiu (The lightning strike of Ling) , is visible to everyone as far as I know. Its not usually spoken of too much, but i guess TDB is the exception One such unnamed individual mentioned earlier was unfortunate enough to have it kick off in a very public place after leaving retreat before stabilizing it , which caused quite a stir The others, depends. I would need to see it tbh because lights a weird one for sure. It can be a result of the teacher emitting it tangibly , or it might be widened perception (or both) I guess a control would be needed for some of those types to be sure? Definately far stranger that the fa qi stuff that gets so much heat from skeptics in my experience Id think to myself, if you cant accept someone being able to give someone else an electric shock, How are you going to accept them lit up like a christmas tree

Im clarifying because the thematic analysis was a bit problematic I am talking about one very specific process. Its discussed below for you. I hope it brings clarification to the matter Thanks for giving the Hindu names dwai, id not seen that before The point about awareness is exactly in line with what im taught To be clear about the light, I am talking about is this phenomenon. I would have thought it better not to name it, but actually, @freeform did earlier, so im not going over the line with anything, and can stretch this a bit further Can you relate to that? This manifests not just with the eyes closed (as in the case of inner vision) but actually outside as well This is the almost verbatim way my teachers discuss it. It often manifests as lightning that comes from a few inches above baihui. All of my teachers discuss it. Daoist and Buddhist ( the latter has a different name, one im not at liberty to mention) In that regard, it very much does manifest in front of anyone who is witness to it. But as I mentioned earlier, you are supposed to be away from the public eye for this. Its not a public thing really (people glowing is generally cause for concern) I only know of two cases where someone left retreat before the process had stabilized, and scores of people seen this in various settings Edit: Here's a little more on it

He is talking about literal light that others can see. Im going to put a definition here so heres no more confusion This is non symbolic Rather, it is very objective mechanical, and observable empirically to others in the vicinity of it Let him tell you this himself should he return. I know what he's talking about, its unfortunate nobody else seems to

The light he is talking about - It is visible to anyone, even common lay people. If i randomly grabbed somebody off the street and brought them into a room while this phenomena was occuring, they would be able to see it just as clearly as I could (someone with a degree of training) This phenomena, actually, it begins happening spontaneously until a degree of control is gained. That can be during practice, or taking a walk, as I mentioned it can be very spontaneous Eventually it stops, but during the phase from when it begins, until it stabilizes, you are supposed to be in retreat away from society for those reasons Lights (nimitta) are very important in certain lines of alchemical buddhism There are some that are total distractions and annoyances yes, but there are others that are critically important and the markers, and in some cases, means for further development The ones im talking about are also not imagined or visualized , they must arise of their own accord when the practice conditions are correct Im kind of unable to say anymore there, just that they can be very important

Not at all my friend I know better at this stage However, could it be the case that you might be proving something to others unintentionally?

Unfortunately , no, thats not the full set of images, and thats a cut from a larger piece. You are right in one way though so thats good. "Something" is internalized, but it is accompanied by externalizing phenomena for a period Both images are referring to "something" at that point above the head. That "something" externalizes in certain lines of Tantric Theravada at a point in the practice It is not a permanent thing, but you are supposed to be away from public when it happens until you can get it under control Theres been a few instances where thats not been the case - I mentioned one earlier. Im just not going to name who out of respect However, It happens in Daoist lines too. The point itself has a name, as does the emerging phenomena If I understand you correctly - you do not know about it, cannot name it, and have not experienced it. It seems you dont even believe it exists This is both puzzling and sadly, somewhat indicatory to me at least if the case.

In the case of what im talking about, unless someone else saw those lights coming out a little above your head Then it is definately nothing like that Its not subtle, and its visible for anyone whos present to see it But this particular thing isnt permanent, Though far weirder "light stuff" start later, but thats not something we'll be discussing

Do you see it now?

To help bring the thread back to DDJ verse 48, Some of you might be wondering why I keep harping on about the white room and what it means Basically, the experience can comes about during Zuowang (with some other factors in place) and its a sign that the five spirits are attempting to come together Once this happens you may also begin to contact an aspect of congenital conciousness that in turn, leads to various layers of the acquired mind (accumulated stuff) being shed, and the Xing begins to change Consider this in light of verse 48 Hoping that illustrates the relevance of the matter

Do you think im trying to prove something to you? My friend, you misunderstand me Yes its a pretty unfortunate situation . Would you like time to consult your sources? It'd be nice if you could bring back something for a wholesome discussion later

I believe if you had the attainments and expertise you claim, you'd not need to be shown or witness anything, You'd have experienced it for yourself. At the least, I am rather surprised you cant name this.