Shadow_self

Welcome @Camille Damo's IAA is a great resource. You'll really enjoy it

Well I am very sure there is, and all my teachers know of it ( freeform does also) Dozens of students seen it during training, and several bypassers witnessed it outside the training setting (yes people who know nothing of internal work) And furthermore, it has a classical name , so the idea its not a thing, simply isnt true. I think that you honestly dont know what it is. But non-experts know about this, so im wondering why you don't, given you position yourself as an expert?

You tell me According to your own words, you are the expert/professional here after all. I'm confident the hints @freeform left are more than enough for someone of your level of attainment to discuss such things in depth without my help Right?

In order to know what someone has got out of their practice, they first have to inform you, and we both know you dont have insight into that matter, because he keeps quiet about such things However, he left some hints in his wake I'm aware of what hes alluding to here, especially as far as physically emitting light is concerned, and inner/casual seeing, coloured lights, falling show, the mandala. etc And one can revert to writings/commentaries and rehash the confirmatory discussions wrapped up in esoteric speak, sure. But can one discuss the experience and resulting transformation practically? As far as I could tell, they did not appear to be the ones having trouble when the topic of the various shen based phenomena came up. Curiously, they take the same stance as my teachers Now id like to quote you for a moment (because your statement seems quite clear) IWe spoke about the "white room" earlier. I think we should continue into the practical aspects of it I know @freeformcan discuss these things experientally, and he knows what develops and what follows. Im wondering if you can, given it is a classical neidan development You have the floor my friend (FYI this development is very topical to DDJ Verse 48 given the relationship to Zuowang)

I never said you were But you clearly missed what I wrote earlier I'm stepped back as far as conversation with you goes. So if you could please stop trying to re-engage I would be very appreciative of that Thank you, and peace

Probably why the texts were left as confirmatory guides for the lineages with an orally transmitted glossary to explain the gibberish

Complexity is the signature of the current times as far as I can see

The Dan is not an ingredient in the Dan. The Dan is the end product I have to be honest , if you cant name all the ingredients of the eilixir, classicaly and what they actually are practically, then this conversation isnt going to go anywhere beneficial I dont think you'll be able to, so further discussion is not going to be of much use to either party Cinnabar is Pure Yang, not Yin Taoist texts knows why i used that image. It was just to see if he was referring to Water or True Yang. Thats all. Sure, If you say so. Im not missing the point, and theres nothing wrong about what I stated. I think if freeform ever returns you should ask him if my statements are "personal preference" or based on developments in the practice based on methods and instructions by teachers with attainments Im sure he'd be happy to give you some insight into the matter But i really dont mind whether you believe him or me to be honest Its not for your benefit im posting.. Just filling a gap he's left as best I can do Honestly, I dont use texts nor do I prefer one, I have teachers (three), who have attainments in the practice (two in neigong/neidan, one in another lesser known form). They are my source. I never interpret practices based on the other, I do them in isolation despite the large degree of crossover For people using the DDJ to practice as originally intended, there is no intepretation, its very mechanical. It has to be so it has repeatability Anyone ive met who relyed on texts without instruction, quite honestly, misundertood what the purpose of them was, and because of that, ended up somewhat confused But if thats what someone wants to do who am I to stand in the way? I really do not mind at all. Thats really up to them how they wish to use their time and invest their energy I like to help people who want help learning, but I am going to leave this conversation now. Theres a line I have where helping people is concerned. I've crossed it repeatedly at this point Peace to you

I'm going to be honest. You are heading down a road of confusing yourself. In addition to cross referenicng, I am also going to recommend you do not isolate and cherry pick chinese characters unless you want to be swimming in a complete minefield of confusion. You have no idea how often than character shows up out of context It is contextual, and unless you understand the context, you wont understand why it is there Im not at liberty to tell you what yellow sprouts actually is, but it is not cinnabar. Not at all. It is however related to the cinnabar field (dan tien) , and a different ingredient in the elixir. Cinnabar = Original Spirit. It is the pill. it is the elixir, the Dan, That is what it is. The end product Thats why the character keeps showing up, becaues of the word elixir This conversation is also reducing my willingness to share anything further, because it is getting to the point where i keep having to repeat the same thing over and over If you dont want to accept it thats honestly ok, no problem

There are confirmatory signs, all the way down to physiological changes The point that is being made here is the Po is how the acquired mind is formed, that process needs to rectified, so the way the Po operates needs changing Or its highly inaccurate, and the sensory system has further narrowed our awareness and perception to the point we can only percieve the physical realm, and our inability to move past that keeps us oveindulged, obsessed, constantly gathering the karmic weight from the process of accumulation which keeps us coming back over and over There is a reason that all spiritual traditions involve cutting of desires and stimulation via the senses. One that is not immediately obvious to someone without the knowledge of how such things operate And respectifully, you may have to look elsewhere im afraid, im already tethering the edges of what I should say For almost everyone, laying the foundations for future incarnations would be the point yes. Its a rare few that get beyond that You are not thinking of the immortals, you are thinking of the realm of the jealous dieties, that are one layer above humanity. Its also called the Asura realm The reason they are frustrated/jealous, is because without incarnation, they cannot really process karma, and are in a kind of limbo state. People who practice certain forms of magic and shamanism call upon these beings, unaware that a process of karmic transferance is inherent. Theres a reason they are willing to help, and its not always benevolent

Its not a case of not knowing how. The elixir in Neidan is cinnabar There are several uses of the term gold Golden coins, Golden Elixir, True Gold, Golden Embryo These all mean different things

Waidan, not neidan. A topic even more rife with error. Thats why theres so many poisonings. The terms cannot be cross referenced Two pieces of advice that are useful regarding Neidan texts #1 Neidan texts should be read in isolation. The terms are often Polysemous #2 They are confirmatory texts, not instructional. They are designed to augment the practice as a point of confirmation for practitioners

375 is already there, heres the rest

Yes thats where she took the notion from, I could have just posted the other pages though Its not a great book. Theres far better texts worth reading

No, because the book isnt online to read. Heres a screenshot of the page in question In fact, the word cinnabar isnt even used in the pages she quoted. Livia disappoints me frequently. Her rendition of the Zhong Lu texts was disappointing also Not the case Nobody said we are getting rid of the Po, we are changing how it interacts with the other four agents (Hun, Shen, Zhi and Yi) Recall what was mentioned earlier It is normally functioning in a way that keeps us in the reincarnation cycle However, its also the means by which our soul grows and transforms, if we can get the bloody thing to work the way it we need it to

I am simply saying to you that all empirical learning happens via the senses, thus it is the Po accumulating No Po = No senses Po = information aquired by the senses Hun - things known from a more "congenital" source You dont accumulate Po, the Po accumulates

I checked that reference that Livia Kohn made and nowhere does it say that. I am unsurprised by her poor scholarship though. She is in my opinion one of the most error ridden authors on all things neidan. To clear up: True Gold (The Ming Alchemical Agent) is one of the ingredients used to form the Elixir (Chunyang, or Cinnabar). The other is True Silver (Xing agent) You cant "use both" but in her case, the original reference on pagr 378 is also pointing out a notion that Ge Gulong made, which was that Wu Yun may be situated halfway between neidan and waidan (meaning "using" cinnabar and gold, quite literally the physcial substances" "Vermilion Cinnabar" is also a bad translation, what Predagio means is "Vermillion sand" Mercury in the vermilion = True Mercury = True Yin within yang Cinnabar = Original Spirit, called so becaues of the red connotation, which is the actual colour of the Pill (Elixir) A suggestion i often find helpful is not to depend on authors if you really want to understand this topic deeply. Too many misunderstanings and a lack of realization that context is key. The use heuristsics too often,a nd as a result join dots Neidan texts should be read in isolation tbh. You need to establish they are talking about the same thing before you assert it. to be so Case in point. Yellow Court means several different things, context dependant

I believe here, he is discussing altering the relationship the Hun and Po have to one another through the reversal of the alchemical wu xing Its not the same as allowing the po to accumulate. In fact it transforms its mode of operation This is done during the state of Zuowang, which is topical given the verse in question

We have different understandings of what this means then #1 What exactly do you mean by lead in this case? Can you point it out on the below diagram I can do that Do you have anything to say regards the Hun, Po, Zhi, Shen and Yi and the white room? Sorry Im not following here. What exactly were you trying to warn them about?

Can you add to the discussion by explaining how to forget? I already explained some of the things leading up to it, but like I mentioned im at the limits of what I can say, so you may be able to add to peoples understanding here It seems to me like @freeform knew what he was talking about, and @awaken figured it out. as well It looked to me to you were the one finding it confusing where "entering the white room" is concerned. I could totally be wrong, but thats just how im reading it from my own position at least. Feel free to correct me Would you be open to discuss it now though ? Freeform did mention there is one other member of this board who was able to discuss that state in depth (denoting direct experience of it) , so im hopeful they'd be able to add to the discussion too Not exactly, but elaborating on the above would be very helpful Also just to add. I dont think freeform or awaken are seminar sellers. I dont know anyone on the forum selling neidan seminars. A few neigong teachers maybe., Not neidan as I understand it at least. In any event, can we not go there. I am just looking for a practitioners discussion really. No need to bash anyone here.

Well you dont "do the dao" in the context of sitting and forgetting. Sitting and forgetting is something that arises when a whole host of conditions are put in place first. You cant practice it without first sealing the senses for example You are free to disagree with me @Taoist Texts, I dont mind However, I do have a question for you given you do position yourself as well versed and attained regards neidan. Do you remember this conversation? Could you kindly elaborate Why the confusion regards the neidan phenomena freeform was talking about in this thread?

The discussion I brought forward pertains to mechanics, which as I originally pointed out, is unrelated to splitting, or christianity, or cultural context I am explaining to you that the methods and teachings in the Daodejing is referring to a specific way, yes. It is the path of subtraction. Daoism contains mainy sects, lineages, practices etc. But the teachings of the DDJ are actually a road to becoming a shengren or sage. Thats why they were recorded Thats really not an interpretive thing. from a practice perspective Its just not accessile to the public being totally honest. I suspect that might change in the future, but as of now, not so much Ive actually explained some of the mechanics above. But to save you more time @freeform posted some here, and Ill elaborate, only because I'd like you to understand whats going on there (hoping if I keep tagging and referencing his posts he'll show up, kind of like Candyman haha) What you can take from the above, is there is a very specific manner in which we need to alter the relationship between the Hun and Po Its the Po that keeps us anchored into form,. One of the mechanics it does so by, is accumulating experience, preference and bias via the senses This is what needs to stop at a basic level, why? Because all the senses are produced by the Po itself. It that which keeps us incarnating, and the "stuff" it accumaltes is the weight of karma basically. At the point of death, before the Po returns to the Earth, it transfers the karmic seeds into the Hun, life to life. So the wheel keeps going This is why "learning" is a problem. Just imagine trying to learn without any of your senses? This means, you also cant "learn" in that way without distortion or bias or preference, hence, you cant learn anything that wont keep the loop of reincarnation going to some degree. It will always be distorted by the Po, as it is always processed through it, in a manner of speaking The truth is, as you start to alter the relationship between the Hun and Po , and approach the deeper aspects of the Hun, various forms of knowing arise. Its not a matter of learning anymore. It wont be needed At the depeest level of accessing the Hun, you basically become omniscient. But thats a rare thing The path in the daodejing is, in one crude manner of speaking, about unlearning/ the things the Po accumulates, which gives rise to other things in its place. But there is much more. I just cant go into it all. Sorry This will have to do. I just pushed it a bit further because freeform already went there, so its techincally public (just not organised in a coherent way) So, I hope this all makes sense. his is the basis of verse 48, and I hope it sheds a little more light on it Now im going to bed, before I get struck by lightning or something. Farewell

It is at the point of non accumulation that the senses are reversed/sealed so this is what I referring to In other words, at this point, external data stops accumulating. The corporeal aspect of our soul is then in a bit of a troublesome situation Read @freeform post history on the Hun and Po to understand more. Im at the line of what I can write (Im being very serious now). Like I said, ive been generous

Yes. The point there was the path towards spirit goes in one direction, Subtraction You spend your life building up an acquired self (moving away from sprit, or addition) , and then you tear it down basically (subtraction) Very crude, but sit on it for a while Aha see you are going to make me speak on something im not supposed to. You're going to get me in trouble Ok final piece, then im done. See below Wu Wei is non doing. So if you recall what I said about sealing and reversing the senses, which isnt "nowhere. Its a point of non accumulation. Then the mind can only work with what is there, meaning eventually you can reach a state of wu wei, or non doing with the mind too At that point, the senses (all six) can be said to be sealed When you stop the mind or then the "everything that is acted upon" begins The everything that is worked on is related to whats already left. Starting to undo (Reverse accumulation, which is to subtract) the mind (and in some respects, some of the things that keep us in the cycle of reincarnation) Im shutting up now @Daniel !!! No more. Ive already been generous here You'll need to ponder over the rest im afraid. Peace friend

See below From a practice perspective the DDJ is subtractive. It is about reversing course, not oscilattion between two poles. In order to subtract, something must be there. But if one is accumulating and subtracting, one gets nowhere, and is essentially wheel spinning. Christianity is not really relevant to that process though, im not sure why you decided to bring that up. To quote my friend @freeform. "If you arent moving towards spirt, you're moving away from it" Hopefully the message resonates better in his words. Im sorry, but I think you may have misunderstood what a sage (shengren) is, practically speaking Here are some markers of that attainment They have freed their consciousness from the acquired mind Have freed the virtuous De from deep within them Emotional states of division are no longer a part of their being. They are free from the development of acquired states They are aware of the profound empty state of reality They live in a state of Wuji a lot of the time. In this case, the sage is definately not doing both Im not sure what your definition is based upon? But within the lineages, the understanding of what a sage is practically speaking is as above. This would be especially true of lineages who have several people documented to have attained this state, and the ones beyond it. A sage moves beyond the cyclical actions you discuss, thats the point of the practice really I would appreciate if you would not invoke Christianity here. It is not relevant. Things are accumulated so they need to be reduced. We aim to reduce, not accumulate via the practice Constant accumulation with no forgetting is the state of most people. Simultaneous accumulation and reduction would be going nowhere. You can liken it to jogging on the spot Reduction without accumulation is the state that the practice is trying to bring one towards, as laid out above There are states beyond Shengren (Sage) Zhenren (Transcended being, if you would) and the various Xian (Immortal) attainments...and beyond These definately are off limits for discussion from my end. Anyway, I hope that helps II'll refrain from adding further. at this point I was just pointing towards an important point regards Zuowang that the DDJ is referring to in verse 48 , for those who are interested