Shadow_self

I'm not suggesting you go and get one. Definitely not a parapsychologist. I only mentioned anomalistic psychology, as that is the discipline that deals with finding natural explanations for what appears to be "unnatural phenomena". In other words, if they cannot find a current natural explanation., well. It is a similar reason that that wandelaar recommended a magician (as its their professional job to trick people). In other words, these would be the people "qualified" to rule out fraud per se as per their professional activity, as they deal in the business of fraud/"paranormal" This is why im confused by the language of "professional/expert". Based on what you are saying, it feels less like having a professional person rule out fraud, and more about having the testimony and video of people with PhD's/MD's in rather adjunct fields (biology/medicine/etc). Now don't get me wrong, I understand where they would come in if you wanted to explore the phenomena after said fraud has been eliminated, but that is a step ahead of itself, if you see my point? It feels to me also, that if you did get lets say said psychologist/magician to explore the phenomona, you'd probably receive more skepticism, in the form of hardline materialists who are rather themselves stuck within their own cognitive biases, as opposed to being aware of what is mentioned above (Though they do seem to LOVE James Randi, so perhaps Im leaping ahead of myself with that assertion) An

I agree with @forestofemptinesstoo 100% However Qi is something you work with over time I think the earliest experience of it in the Nei gong process is Zifagong, and then you can access it and drag it inside your body once its "thick enough". Zifagong is weird However if you wanted to feel that thickness and density, and to be able to move it around in your body, then whats in the video would do it. You of course could ask for it to be done in a different room to take away the desk thing. e Unfortunately you couldn't do it DIY yourself, unless you took the route I mentioned above. It would take years to develop the thickness and quantity of qi to do it

Correct Parapsychology (experimentally speaking) starts from the opposite premise to Anomalistic Psychology, so they have a large overlap as they are concerned with the same thing really in most cases (though the latter does look at belief a lot too, often as it ties into explaining phenomena) If Parapsychology thinks something is "supernatural" and works towards proving it, Anomalistic Psychology would view the phenomenon as natural until proven otherwise It is rather hard to take the former very seriously at times. I think a revision is needed badly there

Perhaps I can at least explain why this is difficult to do The Qi needs to be build up in the body to a sufficient degree and density that is possible to push it out. This generally happens with Yijinjing training The easiest way for you to do this yourself, and it is possible if you talk to the right people. You could go to meet someone who can do this, they will temporarily inflate your channels, push and bunch of qi in, and you will be able to push it out Just note the effect is temporary. You can see an example of that here

Did it escape your notice that he was talking about diet? I realise that could come across as rather cheeky, but its meant in a friendly way, The three vehicles of Buddhism all take different approaches and stances here Consuming meat does not equate to the taking of life, and that's a mistake people often make when conflating the first precept with diet Hunting, now that is a different story entirely. Karma is not as straightforward as people like to think.

Here is a long list of recommended and further readings for the module taught on Anomalistic Psychology at Goldsmiths https://rl.talis.com/3/gold/lists/9248268A-E2F6-EE19-4426-900E5D785066.html?lang=en I'm fairly sure anything you are looking for will be in that list, its probably the most comprehensive list you'll find online The books by Holt and French are interesting and touch on the basics, but if you want a deeper look, I think you could look at the lectures by reading list and title

There's a lot more that could be said if I wasn't quadruple checking my posts so as not to tread on toes (too much anyway)

They pretty much have. Incase you didnt notice. Your view is one that doesn't seem to be supported No surprises there though Would agree with this We use mixtures of meat eating and vegetarian diet (well for me its vegan as dairy is out) according to whether the goals of the period of practice are. It usually works quite well

The whether one eliminates animal products, or simply reduces them you should have no problem, right? Seems like gradual reduction varies by individual, something most vegans arent happy with Funny how the goalposts are shifting. Again (sigh) I dont refuse to acknowledge anything. I am quite aware of what propaganda is. I can suggest a rather lengthy book on the topic if you need insight And all industries do it. I just find it rather odd you cant recognize it when you post it Eh no, they do not. The Aghori eat dead human flesh, which is a level above animal Pretty sure the bible talks about loaves and fishes, milk and honey and so forth Some focus on it, others don't. Jains are the ones that really prioritise it to be perfectly honest. And a vegan is not a Jain by any means. . Here is the problem with things like : "all" "least" . The are all polarized positions, black and white. If you haven't noticed, the world is rather varying shades of grey Nobody said plants were animals, please stop inventing strawman's and going into the realm of logical fallacy, its a very immature thing to do I don't need to come at it from any angle, because I am not arguing anything except the hypocrisy. I'm a person who believes reduction in whatever form a person themselves deems fit for their situation is perfectly fine Im super aware of the suffering inherent in the food chain. It doesn't change my position, nor does the stack of logical fallacies that are falling one after the other like dominos with each statement you make I never said I cared about the plants. Another strawman. The argument I am making is rather straightforward. The argument of consciousness and sentience does not apply, because evidence exists counter to it Simple really YOU SAID EVERY INSTANCE All I needed to do was provide one example to refute that See I know animals can be loving. I am also not silly enough to think they always are. A common fallacy employed by vegans, but the evidence suggests otherwise Are you shifting the goalposts again to "in most cases" now? You are very fond of that particular fallacy I noticed No, I said that because you are projecting false guilt on others who dont (and shouldn't) feel any because you believe they should...that's the worst type of cult like manipulation. They use guilt as a means to control, its a rather persistent tactic in the Dark Triad also. I've no anger at all, to be perfectly honest I reduced my consumption of all things over time, to the point I eat less than I should as a grown man, I think that's a far better strategy, care to argue that it isnt? However I find it utterly hilarious when vegans claim to be about the least harm possible, yet fail to acknowledge their lifestyle incurs significant harm to animals too. I also find it totally hilarious when someone claims to be primal, and buys all their food in a supermarket, instead of running around naked, unshaved chasing an animal with a poorly made spear, having not eaten for several days So don't worry, its not just vegans I find funny, it is all the polarised people I know plenty of people who are animal lovers that believe anyone doing anything to reduce harm is doing their part and its more than acceptable. I tend to listen to those folk, who are rather reasonable, rational and logical I tend not to listen to people who preach, proselytize and employ all manner of cult like tactics to reach deep into peoples psyche's and try to manipulate them via emotion. A large majority of the vegan population fall into that category And veganism is very radical. It excludes all animal products. In a world where these things are heavily embedded in society, it takes a polarizing stance (radical). Nice video...You know whats not so nice? When animals attack humans. And it happens all the time I will spare TDB from the rather unsettling videos. Here's a close miss where an eagle goes for a young girl but is caught in time before doing damage Of course if someone wants to see what humans often suffer when interacting with animals, they could google that. Im sure its nothing anyone who hasn't got the blinkers on isn't already aware of of course. There was a rather successful TV show in the 90s about it "When animals attack" if I recall Please drop the rather untrue narrative that animals are these loving caring creatures. The truth is, as always is rather in the grey middle than the polarized black/white positions.

The point was about doing the least harm Things die so you can live. Every plant you farm, things die, and a lot of them. If you've not conformed to a standard where nothing dies, you really aren't doing the least harm No I am making the point things die so you can live. That is all I said, and I am really not concerned about the "degree" when someone pretends to be about doing the least harm, yet takes shortcuts that suit them. You can choose to go and forage and do the "least harm" if you wanted to. You choose not to do so. You do what is convenient for you because it suits you, and then judge others because it doesn't conform to your level of "convenience". It reads as rather narcissistic to be perfectly honest That's basically the entire position you've taken, and the same one most vegans take who feel the need to lecture others take The mental gymnastics are very clearly laid out as above I really don't mind to be perfectly honest. It is a tangential point Industry doesn't survive for such reasons. Industry is built on demand and supply. If you truly wanted to reduce harm to as little as possible, you would promote the reduction the population so actual demand for all food products decreases. You would also forage and not use any farmed products at all unless you farmed them yourself in the way you mentioned so that you knew no harm was being done But of course people deflect from the point, typically because as above, it is inconvenient to suggest something like don't have sex untethered, and its even more inconvenient not to have all the things you like easily available and accessible There are plenty of militant vegans, just as there are militant Christians. NONE of this behaviour heightens anything, it devolves into mud slinging and the usual crap you see (Like projecting guilt onto people, and attempting to instill it in them, even when its not there. That's actually a shared characteristic of both) FYI you are coming across as extremely judgemental, to the point you are assuming automatic guilt on people who feel no such guilt. Everyone is entitled to set their own standards and have no need to conform to yours because you want to sit on some pseudo ethical pedestal The animals want to befriend us at ANY GIVEN CIRCUMSTANCE? How friendly... If I had guilt over this maybe, but I do not. Please do not fabricate lies about me. Understanding psychological mechanisms to the degree I do, I am beyond cultish tactics thankfully. Ah the vegan propaganda, of course (vegan bodybuilding no less!!) Well you see there's actually an entire branch of science dedicated to this topic, and its fairly well established plants are not only sentient and conscious, but even have senses https://www.newscientist.com/round-up/plant-senses/ Summary of some of the things mentioned above from the other article But ok, continue reading the vegan propaganda and ignoring the actual science related to the topic, as long as it helps reinforce the worldview that you conform to (even if it is rife with fallacy) The issue is assuming that consciousness is generated by biological structures, which by all accounts is a fabricated lie, and anyone willing to look at the evidence knows this to be the case. Expressions of consciousness are dimensional, not categorical By all means conform to the standards as mentioned above then Forage everything and anything else grow and farm it yourself to do the least harm in accordance with the standard you set. And I wish you godspeed in having a productive live in todays world whilst doing so See, little to no vegans actually do that. So its not about doing the least harm. It is about doing as little harm as you want to do, and in most case, pretending that is the benchmark for doing the least harm Everything appears that way with veganism, but as soon as you prod or poke, the entire premise of "do the least harm" cracks and crumbles when you expose the reality of the situation. Come back down to the premise of "do as little harm as you personally feel comfortable with" and then a reasonable conversation can be had, but that requires many of the people aforementioned to come down off that pseudo ethical pedestal they put themselves on

Well I respect your opinion also (genuinely) , and It is not that I don't think independent oversight cant be helpful. Im just wondering exactly how it fits into what you are talking about regards "professional" Scientists and doctors generally don't go around debunking people. There is one specific subfield of psychology concerned with this, which is anomalistic psychology https://www.psychologytoday.com/ie/blog/weird-science/200909/anomalistic-psychology-what-is-it-and-why-bother The thing here would be they take what appears to be "paranormal" and attempt to find a "normal" explanation via experimentation or other means. So this is the field of academia you'd really need to be in to be considered an "expert" or "professional" in regards to something like this Have your group personally ever taken someone from this field with you to investigate such phenomena? To me if you really wanted to have any kind of "proof" that this is not explainable by current understanding, then you'd first need to get the whole, yeah its not trickery thing done. I mean if you are talking about people who do this "professionally" then this is the realm they tend to operate in. The logical sequence would be after you've gotten such people to rule out "fraud" that you would then mobilize others to try and "explain" (IE things like an MRI we mentioned earlier) The Idea of appeal to authority is less a jab and more a nod to the fact that you guys collectively, I'm sure, have more experience meeting people and trying to investigate this specific phenomenon than any doctor, scientist or dare I say, anomalistic psychologist. I mean your description of past experiences points to the idea you've all done this dozens of times, correct? So if lets say, you aren't bringing an anomalistic psychologist with you, who is basically a professional in relation to finding natural explanations for seemingly "paranormal" phenomena, it is rather hard to say you are looking for an expert opinion. Moreover, if you've done this multiple times, and doctors/scientists have not, it feels more concerned with having a few people with PhD after there name who appear to be authorities (doctors/scientists) but in reality, have actually no real expertise in the area PS: Im aware that there are several people from all manner of backgrounds who run these "paranormal" challenges that you mentioned. Majority of the time however, its not actually their field of expertise, which I am sure you know. As you can see from the boxed text above, they will typically dismiss your claim without even looking at the evidence, an experience you seem to be rather accustomed to.

I think a lot of people use dairy as a source of workout fuel. I used to before it began to kick my ass

I think you mean it shouldn't be rather than it isn't, and to this I wholeheartedly agree. We are long past actual science being what is actively pursued by the majority of researchers/scientists On the surface it does appear that way, but once someones pokes and prods a bit, the cracks appear The replication crisis is just one of many of those cracks Yes, but just as much, scientism, You see what is promoted as science is mostly pseudoscience enforced via scientism and so what you get is pseudoscience and scientism in bed with one another, and thats what im talking about. That is most of what masquerades as science today. I enjoy this story What is done for the pursuit of truth and knowledge as opposed to profit and power is sadly a very small amount, but fortunately, it is people like that that do indeed allow me to keep some faith that there are indeed people out their who are in it for love of it, as opposed to the other crap that comes with it. You'll find though, that most of these people are overshadowed and unknown by their counterparts, sadly And whats worse, nobody ever tells you before you get into it, its something your really have to see first hand. I imagine during the early years before it became so closely intertwined with big business and politics it was a far purer endeavor But then again, before religions became involved with politics and power, they probably were too Certainly true, cant argue with that. Plenty of half truths on both sides If you want to figure out what is real science and what isn't: Replicate the conditions and see if the same result occurs If you want to figure out what spiritual practices are real: Replicate the practices and see if the same result occurs Isnt that kind of what I said earlier? You kind of have to get stuck in to test it out I don't think you are.

@liminal_luke sorry couldn't help myself (I actually drink soya milk because dairy hates me but this is still funny )

Well its really about acknowledging the truth Whether you are a vegan or an carnivore, things die so you can live If one doesn't like it, I guess they could go foraging and see how long they last on that. Interesting experiment. Have you ever tried it? Magic wands dont exist sadly (what fun they would be though right ) , and I've yet to see a trend in the carnivorous or omnivorous community where a position self proclaimed ethical superiority was taken Then again, there isnt as much propaganda surrounding it, so, that might be a factor Suffering is inherent. Its more important to ask why that it is to say it shouldn't be. The latter is common sense, but tells us nothing about how to reduce it. Acknowledging the suffering and feeling guilt and shame are not related. I acknowledge the suffering and I feel no guilt or shame. I'm very aware of it. Do you acknowledge the suffering and feel guilt and shame for all the bugs that were crushed for your food? No it addresses the elephant in the room that a life is a life and to overlook that fact is to live in denial to support ones perception of their own moral standing The bug that gets squished while digging up you vegetable has the same worth as a life that gets ended when a cow gets slaughtered. Either way a life is lost so you can eat. There is no way to get away from this fact. By the way, plants are sentient too https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animal-emotions/202209/the-inner-lives-plants-cognition-sentience-and-ethics I wonder if the militant vegans knew this, would they recoil at their salad in disgust, now viewing it as some kind of dismembered collection of plant carcasses? Yep my uncle runs a biodynamic organic garden, no animals at all are killed. I've seen it, I've participated, eaten the food from there, its great. He's not a vegan either, he's just mindful Heres' the problem, its not scalable to to global population with the current distribution of resources and wealth Now its not an ethical problem, its something else (business, economics and politics) So before you even begin to talk about ethics, you'll need to figure that one out And about this point, is where all the idealistic thinking starts to fall apart, because you soon realize while it is great in theory, it will never work in practice as long as the world is the way it is I think people are just stating the obvious to be honest Here's an honest suggestion . We can all keep it in our pants as a species. Less procreation = less demand, and with less demand industries start to wither. If the industry is the issue, and the industry survives by demand, then decreases the demand. Simple right? Before you talk about helping out, you need to remove the barriers first though Ive yet to see any reasonable suggestions from anyone taking this position here

Well if science was only treated as the method it is and not a system of belief, the pinnacle of organizational authority and truth, and the means to sustainable profit you would be right. But we don't live in that world anymore sadly I think you are referring to what science was, and not what it has become And yes, it certainly is morally wrong to medicalize every aspect the human condition...but where there's profit to me made, you can be sure they will do it, and you can be sure it will be "evidence based" and "backed by science", even when its not actually science but a bunch of lies and bull**** masquerading as it.

Im not so sure it has to do with just being a human endavours, so much as it has to do with how society is structured and organized Science is a method Neidan is a method They should be treated as such. As methods It certainly feels rather clear to me at least, based on what people usually do with knowledge. Like I mentioned, id have their contract signed and returned in a week by people who'd be more than above the standard they seek. I just don't think its a good outcome for anyone at all. Rather the opposite in fact You might be surprised to know, the things ive discussed above, is exactly one of the reasons such folk have not and refuse to come forward with this stuff. The other reason is a little more esoteric Or you know, people could do a bit of science themselves and just explore. That's kind of how people differentiate real from fake. Trial and error A teacher nor a scientist wont be how you'll know whether something is real, it'll be based on your own experiences, and you'll probably The fear in people that they are being conned is quite honestly sad. The seeds it produces are even more problematic. Have people lost their ability to discern that much? I might be a bit biased here given my training, but I mean really it should not be that hard. I'm also not sure what is so hard for people to get past regards thinking one can get a degree of control of out own electromagnetic functions. It is exactly this reason of "I want concrete proof" before I even consider trying anything, that people never actually find anything Every single person I know of any attainment whatsoever, have all been through good and bad teachers. It is a process and a journey all at the same time really

I don't mean this in a rude way, but for the longest time, much of what happened in the East was shunned by the West. They wouldn't give it credence. That tide is changing, but a lot of the earlier stuff is buried beneath a mountain of skepticism and cognitive biases so heavy, it doesn't even exist on their radar (for now) Ill be honest, I don't think its all that useful for healing at all. I personally believe there to be better means, such as what freeform mentioned earlier in the thread. Im not claiming any authority here, just stating my opinion. But the reality is, anyone doing the real thing will be outlawed, and this practice will be put into the hands of regulatory agencies, which will afford only doctors the right to do it, and they'll do so using a synthetic source (like electro-acupuncture). So it'll be as always, it'll be reshaped to fit the materialistic narrative, the real stuff will be hush hushed, In the meanwhile the lesser known types of research will be taking place behind closed doors (MKUltra type nefarious stuff) How bad could that get? Make up your own mind. Me personally, I see MNC's have little problem practically enslaving people to their own ends and so the below image, while dramatic, isn't beyond the realm of possibility https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abe0586 Of course if we are really paying attention, we already know this is on the way. The kicker is, if they found a way to really ramp that up...well Depends on how rigorous and who was attached to it being totally honest. Bigger question is where their money comes from Nobody gave a crap about psychedelics, then you had folk at the Russel groups/Ivy Leagues get behind it. Then. WHOAAAAAAA Of course if you know about these things you know that much of the funding behind those places come from large MNC's and in that case, they are positioning psychedelics to be the next big thing in pharma as SSRI's have effectively crumbled under the very real fact that they are more harmful than helpful. They were assigned as an antidepressant on a false premise to begin with, however that doesn't stop pharma companies from raking in billions every year on something that is more harmful than helpful https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0< So whats the story with SSRI's then? You end up needing them after taking them, when you didnt actually need them to begin with. A cursory glance at some other medications reveal a similar pattern. Quite sad, but a customer isnt much good to a business unless they come back again, so...

About as realistic as the "primal" or "paleo" community chasing after their prey topless, having not eaten for three days with a poorly fashioned spear

The knowledge is already spread, that's not the issue The issue is with bringing it into the sphere of academia/ business/politics Important to note, Cerberus has three heads, not one Anyone privy to the inside of academia may be more familiar with what I am talking about

I meant both They dont just kill insects either. Plenty of other animals die as a result of both

Actually what I am saying is a life is a life Whether a cow dies so you can eat meat, or an insect dies so you can eat a bowl of oatmeal, something still dies so you can live Whether something is raised to be murdered, or you just outright murder it, murder is still murder. The endpoint is the same, Focusing on the in-between often ends up being little more than a diversionary tactic to support ones own biases if one is going to ignore that glaring fact. Acknowledgment of this fact means that if we understand the above endpoint and recognize it, then we can talk about the in-between and working there to change the endpoint

Vegans, for whatever reason seem to gloss over this point.

The problem is, I have yet to meet a person who suggests this approach, and also understands the actual ramifications of this Is there something they can do that you cannot to rule out this possibility of fraud? Or is this just about the appeal to authority (Genuine question, not meant in a harsh way) Academics and doctors, believe it or not rarely have a critical mindset. I know of some who would actually take this on, and would be rather happy to. They could have all the dots joined relatively quickly, and a contract signed in about a week or less The bigger issue, and I feel really strongly about this, is that I don't think the world needs this now. Im not a fan of putting anything of this manner into the public academic sphere. I understand what they are trying to do here, and while perhaps, their hearts are in the right place, which I do respect I do not believe any of them have the experience or foresight to know whats comes out of this, and if they did, I think a more reserved approach would be taken There is sometimes a tangible of feeling Xie Qi when it is purged from the body. If you were to pass it to someone else, they would feel something. Some people use this as a means to pretend they can actually project qi, when in reality, they are just making another person ill Actually, better yet, in some cases it is actually visible as a kind of smoke, or you start seeing all manner of weird stuff happen. The issue however, is it requires a certain level of foundational work to get going When you are dealing with people who don't want to do the foundational work, but want the result...it gets kind of tricky Just a quick FYI If I recall correctly, people have already done the whole projection into a liquid thing and lab tested it to confirm nothing was added. Youd need to reach out to them to ask real specifics, they havent been here in a while

Ok then