Shadow_self

I know of at least two teachers who wont even talk about this stuff in public for that very reason, yet behind closed doors there is another situation entirely Of course there is the major elephant in the room here There are many of them that can do that, and yet still fake it most of the time. This is another little trade secret that isn't spoken of There are also mechanical means of messing with the channels and generating qi, including some of the questionable practices I've seen promoted Things like the LED and other electric phenomena, are a very poor test Because what happens if they give you a legit demonstration to hook you in, fake it to the ones who just want "treatments" then teach you nothings, and have you roped in, all because you believed one demonstration More than one way to falsify certain things In fact if you really wanted to get into it, there are other tests you can use where it is rather hard to fake. But you still have the issue of whether the energy is generated properly, or mechanically so.... Im sure you know what the answer is here, and so do I But I don't feel like saying very much to be honest (though it is rather obvious)

Was someone bludgeoned or bullied or abused? As above? Not everyone is of the the same mental make up as you. For one lets start with definition Bullying = Intentionally seeking to harm or intimidate, or coerce Being honest = telling the truth If a person asks me if they are overweight, and they are, I will tell them that they are, directly I will not run around them screaming "fatty fatty fat fat ass" or whatever But I will not lie to make them feel better. There is a very clear distinction between the truth and bullying Id go one further than to say a lot of the attack on free speech is conflating these two things, without noticing that a distinction is very clear and evident for anyone willing to actually use their mind instead of having a limbic response Are you suggesting a universal standard that nobody should deviate from at all? I ask that you be clear about this because if you are, Im sure you and I may have an interesting discussion here. Then by that very fact everyone should have a different manner of communication and expression. Moreover unless we seek to discriminate, then these diversifications should be respected, unless they breach universally accepted standards (such as the bullying standard above) As opposed to false accusations (I'm going to pretend you said this, and create a scenario to form an argument that doesn't exist) The latter creates nothing but problems, and occurs through nothing else other than a lack of direct communication, and a series of illogical leaps to conclusions that often, are no more than the result of said subjectivity, regardless of how distorted it is. P.S: Please take note of the asking of questions, to infer whether person is suggesting things that arise in my mind so that process A>B>C>D can happen as opposed to the faulty, problematic logic of A>missing>missing>imagined D that doesn't exist because there is no information to suggest it does other than biases driven by subjectivity This is important to discussion

I've put a little note as my signature that will hopefully prevent at least some this in the future Sometimes, I have found that people who tend to get defensive and/or argumentative about a point never made, are often demonstrating an external expression of the internal struggle they are having related to the topic. I just wish I didnt have to get unnecessarily dragged into that intrapersonal conflict when it does happen. It is their business I guess. Being very direct is something that gets me into trouble quite a lot sometimes in real life. Why? I don't understand. Some people call being blunt or direct rude. I call it being honest, so I do my best to be honest and hope people understand that.

Dont blame science Blame scientism...

Yes, I have to do that a lot Or perhaps a bit more context might provide you more insight You may check your PM for said context Which also might explain my new signature, which you might approve of upon said context

I think it only fair if someone accuses me of something, I can at least clarify my position to clear things up Aside from that clarification, I have zero interest in taking anything further, I can assure you Thanks

@ilumairen I've actually quoted the whole conversation here as well, just so it is evident that at no point did I make the assertion claimed in the hypothetical argument that doesnt exist Hopefully that will clarify it for you. If not let me know and ill try to clarify it further And I would appreciate next time, you at least ask me to clarify myself, before assuming I'm up to something. It is unnecessary to misrepresent me like that, when you could have just as easily tagged me and asked me. Or do you have a problem believing what I say? Or that I am honest?

Then your comprehension of what I said is flawed - let me elaborate Person says there is Taoist conception of government Other person says no such thing is in that text, and that this is a literary device Other person ASSUMES one meant that their opinion was boxed into a little box that, and gets bothered by this Other persons decides to make clear a point they never needed to in the first place, based on an assumption that was founded in nothing other than a defense to an argument that didnt exist Report goes in because someone cant either ask the question, nor accept the statement of " I never said that" Shadow_self now has to elaborate because others cant understand his post Sorry to be blunt, but there was no implication in my words. What I do see is an increasing, unnecessary defensive position being taken by several members of the forum, where no defense is needed (especially for statements that didnt occur, and arguments that don't exist) If I though he was saying that, I would not have asked nicely for him not to put words in my mouth. I would have replied (but you are saying that) Is that point going to be conveniently ignored so that the argument might have some hypothetical substance where the follow up statement I made to clarify his error in judgement didnt exist? Should I be concerned about a report where I've made it clear twice that another persons inability to either comprehend my words, or in this case, accept me clarifying because of their miscomprehension is the source of the problem If I wanted to say that, id actually have said that How hard is it for people to read words and take them as they are intended? rather than create a strawman or look for some nonexistent hidden sentiment? Id be more than happy to, except that's not what happened. Now you might think it did, but I can tell you, it did not The actual evidence is there, as plain as day in the posts. If you want to be suspicious. I cannot change your suspicions. I can only tell you the truth (and I am honest to a bloody fault, a trait that gets me in more trouble and makes me less popular than you'd care to know) I am not an underhanded person. I am VERY direct, I really don't appreciate the unfounded claim like that, especially when I go out of my way to be direct I understand exactly what you said, that there was a Taoist conception of government in the DDJ I said no there isn't, that's a clever literary device You then proceeded to assume I said that's all I though you believed it to be, and made a rebuttal to an argumentative point, that simply did not exist anywhere outside of your own suspicions If you never made the unfounded illogical leap, we would not be here having me explain it And if I was trying to say that, id have made it clear, with zero reservations and nothing left to speculate upon.

So then hes not an Arhat. If he is calling himself an Arhat, he is He should have just called himself and Ingramhat, and we wouldn't be having this discussion The fact is he took a word that means something, claimed it was something else and claims to be it That's a very deliberate lie His beliefs, his viewpoints, and quite honestly, his nonsense doesn't factor into it This is very black and white from where I am sitting at least. Are you saying we should give credence to a lie based on delusion? There is no different view. Thats the point really. An Arhat is one thing and one thing only Either you are what the word denotes or you are not He is not, clearly How either of us understand what he thinks is one is quite honestly, not important, We both know that he's not an Arhat correct? You mean any of the actual things that would denote an element of physical proof? Do you not find that all too convenient? It looks more like he wanted to tick a few boxes that nobody else could refute upon physical examination and so he was able to maintain that web of delusion and lies he wrapped himself up in Well and good, until he went and tangled others up in it too, especially vulnerable people :/

I addressed this above, he knows he has deviated from the classical definition. As such, he knows he has not achieved the state of Arhat, because the state of Arhat is clearly defined already, and if he's changing that to suit his narrative, in my opinion at least, he knows he lied and is aware of it So he just decided right, enough, im not playing this game. Im going to make a new game with different rules Do you remember being a child and when kids would play they would do that? They thought the game was unfair so they ran off and created a new game they believed to be fair? This reminds me of this I did say it may not be malevolent thing. But he is lying imo. And based on what Ive heard him say, he seems aware of it to me, even if he believes all his own bu******, he has openly admitted to redefining the term based on his belief So as far as I am concerned, he knows he is no Arhat, and instead tried to appropriate the word to fit his narrative As for what he's doing to Frank? Disgusting, Deplorable and Unethical, both as a teacher and a doctor Posting the videos below to show people what a person experiencing mania might experience

I dont mean to misrepresent you hear, but it seems to me that you are saying he is delusional instead I may be able to accept this compromise, as I am not suggesting pure malevolence on his part, I am saying he is entirely removed from what that term means, and he knows very well, based on classical attainments he is removed form them There are many types of lies though, they arent always Machiavellian So, he either lied and deluded himself as to what his attainment was, and now believes the lie, and is deluded Or he was/ is deluded and is lying about it but knows I can agree that the first is more likely, but it is inexcusable imo If he really had an awakening in my opinion he would have some form of siddhi Freeform has often mentioned how he was convinced he knew what samhadi was, until he met his teacher. I make a similar distinction regards certain things too This is the same mistake people make in terms of quality/quantity. I would not be interested in how much or little someone practiced or for how long. I am interested in what they practiced He seems to find it reasonable to move the goalposts I think he has done this because he is an over-analytical person, and by that very virtue, I think he is going to hit a blockade in his practice that he will never be able to pass unless he radically changes So you think that because he was unable to locate someone who could show him real transformation, he decided to lower the bar and this is reasonable? Sorry I do not agree with that. In this day and age it is nigh on impossible to not be able to find someone who can show you something beyond "centerlessnes" He hasn't found them because he is not looking in the right places The last person I know to claim an attainment, not even enlightenment, just awakening and I cannot name them, visibility emitted light Not imaginary, not subtle. Visible actual light. No trickery involved, and it was not subtle My take on this is really really simple if you aren't awakened, you aren't enlightened, and if you cant produce the visible results associated, you're either lying to everyone, yourself, or both If others want to lower the bar, or make excuses about these things not being visible, so be it They are clearly very visible And yet if you'd taken him at his word, you'd probably not have found the person you did And yet they could just as easily be real absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence The minute you go down that hole, you end up exactly where Daniel Ingram is

He stated he is an Arhat. He is lying and he knows he is lying Whats worse is he is fooling other people into thinking they are the same Its tiresome to keep saying this. These terms have meaning Jhana, Kundalini, Meditation, Arhat, Awakening, You cant just go changing the meaning of the words because you feel like it, and dismiss their actual meaning That's really the whole topic here

Sure Guru Viking Podcast : 1:08:00 To quote him: The bipolar energy helps me access jhana states I've plenty of patience to do it, What evidence would you like? First off I work in academia, and have been at the intersection of clinical psychology for a while. On a little break now. Tough year. Time for some less exhaustive stuff I have no interest in bringing that into the discussion, apart from the fact that you decided to make an unnecessary comment I think if someone is bipolar, with a history of substance abuse, sex addiction and various other atypical traits, then we need to assess their claims based on the available evidence. That is exactly what I did. Took what he said, and weighed it up against the facts We also need to be extremely careful about what we tell them. They are susceptible people, particularly where those are more inclined towards the mania side of it (and the videos should make this very clear). I never claimed to be a psychopathologist, that's not really a thing by the way. I've just spent time this discipline, with professionals, people, patients and participants Its very odd of you to expect me to waive my right to anonymity so a logical fallacy can be entertained. I wont be going there with you. That's all you need to know. You aren't exactly a friend of mine, so I feel no obligation to tell you anything other than that. I wouldn't have even said that had you not felt the need to subtly hint at the fact I have no right to basically confirm a diagnosis he himself already confirmed. I was just making the point I do have a bit more knowledge than the average person here Im not in the business of waving my work history about like that. Ill be deleting the post Id ask you to do the same, that's on you though But like I said, we are talking opinions here. Personally Id rather we spoke on equal footing. He is relevant to the topic that's why. Where exactly are the diatribes? You've missed the point But that's ok. If you'd like to see what @liminal_lukesees, you might understand the point I made However, if you've not seen someone in that position, maybe you'd mistake my disgust at someone doing what Daniel Ingram did for "diatribes". Its ok, I understand. You are free to form any opinion you wish about me. I really do not mind You might want to ask yourself why it bothers me so much. The posts ill be removing are an indication Id prefer someone didnt tell him he was an enlightened being with a mastery of the jhanas and fully awakened kundalini Pity you've missed the moon for the stars as far as my posts are concerned

Hes already stated publicly he was diagnosed. I need not do anything, It has already been done Do you want the timestamp where he mentioned it? I agree with the diagnosis he was given. If you disagree, I think you may need to reconsider the evidence Im honestly sorry you don't like me stating some of the facts here , I mean I can recap He is sick (he spoke about this diagnoses) He has a very publicly verifiable history of substance misuse (Dont take my word for it, go and see yourself) He is calling himself an Arhat, and people are agreeing with him and telling him yes in fact you are (with zero evidence) All evidence points to goalposts being moved beyond belief, the topic of the thread Teachers are fair game for criticism, and I am pointing my finger at Daniel Ingram (Third time stating this) I am rather curious where the feces slinging is? Since when is stating the facts feces slinging? Seems more like you are getting rubbed the wrong way to me. Me? I just don't like mentally vulnerable people being taken advantage of or lied to. I'm happy to call that out where I see it I think you'll need to you ask him?

There is no insight here, as far as I can see that isn't Being told to him by Daniel Ingram (who by all accounts is a liar, a proven one) Available to read in a vast amount of books (apparently he knew he's awakened his kundalini because he googled it) Available via a quick glance over at the psychonaut part of reddit Anyone thinking he has anything other than a serious mental illness, should question their judgement faculties in this case I think, there is an oversight Not only that, but to keep it on topic @Wilhelm This isn't even a case of moving the goal posts, it is far beyond that. This is imagining goalposts and kicking a pretend ball through them, and being told by spectators that actually yes, you are winning the game that in reality isn't taking place Have people here no Idea how malleable and suggestible a bipolar mind is or something? Daniel Ingram's ethics are deep into the minus points for this. He is bipolar, that's diagnosed, and evident to anyone with a basic knowledge of psychopathology I think it is rather sad that anyone would entertain the idea this is anything else And you know whats truly sad? https://frankyang.wtf/mental-fitness-consultation He'll coach you too...

I agree with you. Which was why I pointed a finger at him earlier The delusion as to whats happening is just the effect, but its being instigated, nudged on by Ingram, and reinforced by a whole heap of other people The problem with that is we arent talking about a normal person in terms of mental health here, we are talking about someone far more venerable Ingram I suspect has quite a few issues himself... Looks like it sadly. Plenty of people are happy to believe him (lowering the bar suits everyone) Sam Harris is from a similar discipline as me. Imo he is quite possibly the biggest hypocrite I've come across Denounces religion, yet literally is one of the main spokespeople for the newest iteration of it There was a funny debate I remember watching a few years ago where he debated a religious person on morals and whatnot. He just skipped around the points and created strawman after strawman, until he was basically surrounded by a crowd of scarecrows I have no idea how his name has become attached to meditative practice, but it belongs nowhere near it

Then perhaps his name should not have been invoked I didnt know who he was 24 hours ago, until I came here I didnt ask for your opinion on his lifestyle, you said you wouldn't dismiss him I asked why. That was all If I told you I could teleport, are you going to dismiss me? Right, and I am saying there's nothing described in that article that doesn't happen people on psychedelic drugs. Reddit is a nice place where people describe their drug taking. Its worth a look You know what Daniel ingram stated? People can have awakenings on psychedelics. I think he is easily dismissed because he does not know what an awakening is if that is his position Oh im not doubting his perceptual experience. I am doubting his claims as to what they are, and the causal chain leading to them Given he sees no problem in calling himself an Arhat, I think I can with no reservations dismiss him out of hand, unless someone gives me reason not to I have no problem dismissing bar lowering people who speak nonsense and claim all sorts of things they haven't even touched Or he can demonstrate a whole array of siddhi and put me back in my nice little box I do think they mean very little in fact. I see transformation as something that occurs physically, energetically and physically Can you see it it any of the names you mentioned? I cannot Go take a look at Beth Upton. If you cant see the light of Shen, practice some more and you should see it Meaningless no, Experience? Sure Attainment? Also no Pretty sure based on the evidence, its fairly conclusive to be honest. If you dont want to talk Ohh no, dont go there. Dont conflate quantity with quality please. That's a dead end argument People have put years in and had "perceptual shifts" where they imagined MCO's running, Dantiens and all sorts of nonsense. The real thing has a physical element to it where the spine starts to change, and the saliva freeform mentioned he had to taste (ew) For what it is worth, Ive had SERIOUS changes to my perception as a result of my practice. I don't go around claiming to have some grand attainment because of it. According to anyone ive either spoken to, or interacted with, they are as above (and as per my own experience) A shift on the physical, energetic and spiritual levels That would depend on whether they are grounded in actual transformation or something else I don't think any of them people, regardless of what they claim have any business talking about jhana. Like literally, none

Fair enough. You did say you didnt want to discount his experience. What was it you meant? Peripheral boundaries and perceptual center fading away, or even a total separation is a common experience in psychedelics in general. In fact DMT shares a similar mechanic with the near death experience in that regard, though it can be far more profound, actual separation Psychedelics have been known to heighten neuroplasticity and form new connections in the neural network. Many of these are reinforced and made permanent, which is the recovery effect you see in action at the physical level. This is the case for a normal brain and a normal individual. The mentally ill brain is far more worrying. In fact bipolar people have had to be excluded from recent trials due to safety concerns. Please see below Psychedelics in the treatment of unipolar and bipolar depression (2022) https://journalbipolardisorders.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40345-022-00265-5 So with all that in mind is it more likely he's suffering from delusions that the trip amplified and may have permanently shifted his perception, given it is already altered? Or he is in fact the Kundalini awakened, Jhana master Arhat he claims to be? (Not saying you are saying he is, just showing you where the evidence points towards vs his claims) https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/71832-interview-with-frank-yang-on-the-difference-between-enlightenment-and-psychedelics/?page=1 According to this he has also done pure DMT once and 5meo twice So that'd be 5 times you and I know of Now that's a lot for anyone. Can you imagine what that is for a bipolar person? and keep in mind the above cited safety warning Also I checked the history of his public commercial facebook page. The direct evidence of heavy drug abuse is there. But heres just one quote of many. I have edited some of it out to make it less rude. Go and read the rest (if you dare, because the stories are disgusting) https://www.facebook.com/BiggerStrongerWeirder/posts/pfbid02DjnWSVYzrpB7UmKDFQrDLxbR4wYoRqRyVHhJz91b7hP5ucvshyjepH6m9gBHumZsl Bettter yet, hear him talk about getting high on sleeping pills I'm struggling for you to give me an experience which is non trivial, aside from some serious substance abuse and a serious mental illness Do you think this thing he is mentioning is something special or something trivial? I don't mean that smartly, its an honest question

Im not sure why you are defending him either, whether I give you the academic lens, or the practitioner lens, i see the exact same thing Maybe you are seeing something I am not? I never said he did Do you know how many people do it once and have their perception permanently altered? Im not worried about what he's saying. he is clearly quite unwell. He is forgiven for being deluded imo Im worried about the cheerleaders clapping him on. Or telling him yes you do have x, y and z Thats like telling a schizophrenic, yes the radio is telling you that the tv is plotting to kill you in my opinion I make no distinction, entertaining delusions is entertaining delusions. It is rather sad to see it You mean this one. Sure we can talk about that https://medium.com/@rogerthis/centrelessness-boundarylessness-phenomenology-and-freedom-from-the-cage-of-the-mind-4bccbf65c539 Looks like the same things most people describe after a pretty strong trip or two Nothing special in here to me at least. Can you see something I don't ? I dont think we need to really? But I mean Im just looking from my side, Im open to what you have to say He thinks he's been through all of the jhanas has a fully awakened kundalini, and is an arhat Do you think he is any of those things? If so, Im rather curious as to why

This is why I point a finger at Daniel Ingram. As both a doctor and a supposed advanced practitioner, he should know better. The last thing he's want to be doing is encouraging someone that ill down a road of what he calls "hard core" teachings Psychedelics are about to be the next big thing as a cure all. The pharma folk have their teeth in deep, so I imagine this is a small preview of what is to come sadly Indeed, amongst other things I usually stick with the former, but I am sure this will surely have its place too when the time is right (Interesting note about the step down )

Can attest to this too Ive had two different white lights (and a very very brief flicker of a third, rather rapturous one ) The one TT describes sounds like shenguang 神光 性功

Do you even AUM, bro

Would add to this (If freeform doesn't mind ) Consider the "bright white light" the "life review" as consciousness folds in upon itself This is where the karmic information starts to play back to consciousness.That which carries the most "clinging" is what goes on to dictate the next life This is where all the "meditative" training comes in handy Because it is important during this time if you want to have a "say" in the matter Turning the light around? Detaching from the senses. Well you might just manage to get this process going before you die

I imagine you know most people with serious mental illnesses or neuropsychological disorders have an altered perception to begin with? Fire psychedelics and drugs into the mix, and a few comments from others, and hey presto. Awakened natty kundalini bro (actual quote from him) Do any of those individuals strike you as people of attainment?

All the things he is speaking about, I have heard people on psychedelics claim before. It is coincidence many of them were suffering from rather serious mental illnesses also It is a complete and utter recipe for disaster. He thinks he's been through all the jhanas, has an awakened kundalini. Take 15 minutes to listen to that video I've posted when you have some spare time, I am very sure you'll have everything you need to make a fair assessment. Im really just lost for words that someone that unwell is being given all that reinforcement that something "good" is happening here Second time this week I've seen something here thats genuinely upset me.