David W

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It is often the case that sacred languages have iconographic or pictographic root characters that their later matured alphabet script evolved from. Evaluating how the individual characters come together to make a visual sequence of images that illustrates the full word can yield insight into its’ original semantic intent. I’m assuming pretty much everybody is familiar with that, however I personally just don’t know how to do it with the ancient script of say the DDJ or other significant texts. Also I am unsure what to search for on these forums related this topic to see if related answers have been given in the past. Could someone share what sort of analysis you’ve done on the characters themselves and how perhaps to combine them to arrive at an accumulative illustrated intent of the word? (My apologies for the cringy photo)

@SQC Thank you so much for the effort in sharing those videos! I did watch them and will say I love the animated cartoon! It is fascinating how much stuff is put into children’s material these days. I found it to be insightful actually. @Nintendao Read the PPD, it is was great! I am always so impressed with the elixir field reference and I think that alone is strong evidence that it is possible the entire language was originally pictographically semantic. Have we taken any inquiry into this topic that far? Cheers!

After reading The Biography of Perfected Purple Yang, and a few other classical scriptures on the development of various neidan adepts or those becoming immortals, it seems they make reference from time to time the eating of certain special herbs or unusual plants such as Pine Needles or Sap. JAJ shares the "most secret recipe known to the ancient Daoist masters" for combining Five Wonder-Plants which can be used as a powerful food supplement, or in some cases as a replacement for food entirely, in the pursuit of transforming the body to become energetic. The following is from JAJ's Daoist Alchemy book (pg. 103): "THE FIVE WONDER PLANTS According to The Numinous Treasure Way of Eating the Essence of the Five Wonder-Plants, "there are five "Wonder-Plants" used in order to help the disciple abstain from the Five Grains. These Wonder-Plants are listed as follows: Pine Sap, Sesame, Pepper, Ginger, and Calamus. These Five Wonder-Plants can either be taken separately or combined. When taken separately, the Five Wonder-Plants are said to increase the disciple's energy, expand his Essence, stabilize his Shen, and secure his long life. When combined, these Five Wonder-Plants form the most secret recipe known to the ancient Daoist masters as the "Recipe of the Three Heavens of Numinous Treasure." According to ancient legend, if the disciple continues taking the Five Wonder-Plants without interruption, he can live as long as the world itself. "THE RECIPE OF THE THREE HEAVENS OF NUMINOUS TREASURE The purpose of the "Recipe of the Three Heavens of Numinous Treasure" prescription, is to lengthen the disciple's years, providing him with the time to eventually transcend the world and live forever as an Immortal. The specific quantities of the five ingredients are listed as follows. It is best to gather the ingredients in season when they are fresh and full of Essence: 4 Parts - Pine Sap 5 Parts - Sesame 1 Part - Pepper 3 Parts - Ginger 3 Parts - Calamus During this entire process, the disciple should strictly avoid eating all fish, pork, dog and strong vegetables (onions, scallions, leeks, etc.). Also, during the time of preparing the herbal formula, the disciple should add Atractylis ("Shu") to his diet." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay, so I have seen this type of thing enough in historical references to believe there is obviously something legitimate behind the tradition. I do not think this equates to the proper alchemical pills of waidan, but perhaps it is more a health supplement used by practitioners. The possibility of learning how to make something like this comes as an extension of an already very lean diet (juicing, clean veggies, chicken/fish, and zero carbs.) What do you all think? Have you ever heard of procuring such a supplement these days? I would be quite interested in experimenting with this so any thoughts or ideas are welcomed!

Taomeow I have not done an exhaustive search of previous threads on the topic (I know I should and will), but was wondering if you might be able to point me towards some useful resources covering the Daoist Diet? I am quite keen to learn how this effects us spiritually. I have been on a mostly juice (70% veggies, 30% fruit) fast with some fish & chicken to detox. Amongst the juice fasters they discuss purging the body from all the rot and left over undigested junk in the organ tracts. Supposedly it takes something like 90-120 days to stop releasing solid waste from the body when drinking only liquid juices... there is no set timeframe, just however long it takes the body to release all the solid waste. Do you think this sludge in the body could be part of what the corpse demons use to interface with our energetic fields? (this is a decent article on the topic if you haven't already read it / it interests you at all): https://sites.google.com/site/delawareteasociety/yoked-to-earth-a-treatise-on-corpse-demons-and-bigu

It’s been a tremendous blessing to read some of the incredibly deep and rich classic texts that left me truly inspired. I’ve regularly been significantly impressed with the depth of Daoist texts over the years. 1.) What are some favorite texts or group of advanced texts? 2.) What language should be studied to access this source material? 3.) Are there any recommended resources to learn the language within the spiritual context?

Hello friends — I just became a member so please let me know if I should reorient this post in any way, and thanks for such a wonderful community! Having spent some time as a researcher of various traditions, I seem to have discovered that the resulting subtle bodies produced via internal alchemical processes does actually differ, even within one religion. What’s more, is that the destination of these consciousness transferring vehicles are often celestially oriented differently between one practitioner to the next practitioner. A specific spiritual projection or the celestial spatial locale of the internal energetic body is often determined by the beings whom rule the practitioners pantheon of gods. Most people now commonly accept that this variance of gods within a system is often a variance of stellar bodies the practitioner is drawing on. (I.E. certain internal systems differ because the stars they work with differ) Specifically pinpointing the differences in religious hierarchies and how that impacts the resultant internal energy body used for the afterlife is most interesting to me. As such, my question is what are the primary differences between energetic bodies built up within the various lineages, and what differences in underlying pantheons exists within Daoist magical systems?

I think we are missing each other a bit — I would agree spirit is our transcendent divine self, probably even related to our connection to the source. As I understand it, the inner alchemical body, or the inner immortal child (golden fetus as an example) is lower on the hierarchical chain of being then the spirit. I would suggest however that while the alchemist works in various realms simultaneously, he can become conscious of his spirit or even source consciousness, but the main objective of much of his developmental work is to develop a subtle energetic vessel which is designed to host the spirit in the next life. The modern era has a plentitude of different methods on how to develop this inner energetic vehicle or immortal child body. For example there are observable differences between the descriptions of the diamond, rainbow, or shining bodies of different schools. As such I am asking, and I think reasonably so, what identifiable variances could there be in how the inner energetic body is developed across the different lineages?

Hi, personally I was referring to what you would identify as spirit, then. There are a variety of practices I’ve heard about but for example I think we’re all familiar with the meditation process overviewed in the Secret of the Golden Flower. I specifically mean the energetic vehicle which is meant to carry your consciousness after death. Do you think that that has changed, even slightly, in the last couple thousand years? And if it has, what do you think has changed about modern practice?

I totally agree that what is intended here is that it is the “development” plan that has altered over the years. This is only natural to take place with the rising and falling of cultural and religious based dynasties. My suggestion is that it isn’t that hard to believe that the earliest daoist inner practice differs from the common modern practice. As such, I’m asking critically, what specific changes could have potentially taken place and how does that relate to the development of various lineages. Hi Liminal! I didn’t mean to suggest that the potential of the innate human subtle anatomy has fundamentally changed to the point of having a different idealistic blueprint from older times, only that modern practices could differ a little from the ancients, and thus potentially carry over that difference into the modern energy bodies being created. What exactly could have been altered over time, and how significant could it have been are other questions for me. At the moment I’m mostly interested with identifying how different lineages develop the energy body differently in today’s practices. Lol, thanks! Hi, actually I have found that to be a really interesting concept. I’ve read about a variety of middle eastern forms of inner mysticism (sufis also have trainings like this) that focus on dismantling the thought forms within before beginning to ‘work the ground of the heart’ and developing the inner chambers or inner mansions. I wanted to ask you, what specific layer of the energetic anatomy is the aspect of ourselves which is formless, nameless, and uncontainable in any shape?

Looking forward to being a member of this wonderful forum! I’m just a humble student wanting to learn about the Dao.

Hi again — agreed. These allegories I think are helpful as a general conceptual framework, but would be particularly interested in learning the details about how the different energy bodies specifically relate to different realms and deities of various Daoist lineages.

Fascinatingly, there are some people who think these are merely ‘deific masks’ and that its simply our local and cultural programming that causes us to experience transcendent things through abstract religious god forms. I do not think any of the ancients viewed the spirit realm this way. I think there are very demonstrable examples of individualized conscious beings involved with the spiritual development of humanity, and I want to understand how lineage differences in Daoism (maybe north vs south) reflect the different trajectories of the energy bodies of practitioners.

Cleansox, haha I have no idea if it’s a pinnacle of tradition or some unknown deep teaching. That’s why I am asking these very pointed questions honestly...if you have a three part online subscription course please sign me up! Jokes aside, I think I would have to say, yes, if those immortals are considered external individualized spiritual intelligences then they would perform the same role as a god in any hypothetical pantheon. That makes little difference imho, and I personally have no problem interacting with whatever if that’s the process. In fact, the case I’m making is that I suspect there are differences between various lineages. This becomes interesting when you consider how these beings relate to different stars. Since I feel the stars provide objectively different energies, if you work with an ‘immortal’ or any spirit related to a given stellar energetic quality, your internal body will likely be impacted by those qualities. I'm asking what the fundamental differences are within the energy bodies of different lineages if the ‘beings’ they work with differ as well. With that said it almost seems that the burden of proof should fall on those who say the energy body is the same, when so much of the practice and beliefs are different.

I think the ancients certainly believed their inner energy practices uniquely reflected the gods they were in relationship with. They no doubt believed they would join them in the afterlife. They believed in specific names and detailed locations of mythical lands, it certainly was not the universal syncretistic abstract systems we see where modern practitioners say it’s all the same..... My theory is that these differences are present and fundamentally come down to different pantheons, and thus their inner energetic workings can be different as well. It’s one thing to say that all of the 10,000 things come back into unity eventually, but regardless I seriously doubt the afterlife is exactly the same for each practitioner and that the energy body they’ve developed is exactly the same. If someone could explain what these specific differences are, I would gain understanding regarding the different paths towards the afterlife and the more precise goal for birthing the inner body.

Thank you Master Logray. Can I ask you then why certain lineages base the attainment of perfection through encountering ‘cosmic’ entities within the internal grottos? Are these just abstractions or objectively external consciousnesses? I have heard many a teacher relate that there are no spirits involved only to discover later on that they are very much part of the whole process. I would certainly be interested in learning more about a system that works to purely develop the innate human energies however. Specifically, are you saying the pinnacle of development within Neidan is accomplished without the contact of any beings from the Daoist pantheon?

RiverSnake most appreciated. I’ve looked at the process in the Bardo, Tibetan book of the dead, and the Egyptian book of coming forth by day, amongst various texts. Not only do I agree it should be something worth studying, I feel strongly that getting a clear idea on the development to begin aligning ourselves now, for then, is most prudent. Regarding developing maps, maybe even a circulatory inner grotto journey mirroring this process, would be super fascinating to me. If you could suggest maybe a lineage or practice that specifically focuses on this issue of developing the inner body to best navigate this transition, I would be exceedingly grateful!

Well, I'd say all those categories are verifiably true for me, but thank you. Are you saying you need me to answer this because you fundamentally do not think that there are differences in the subtle bodies of different practices? Could I ask you to pls answer with what information you have on this topic specifically, rather than going any further into the checklist idea.

Great responses! I do not think the subtle body is a result of aligning with the stars alone. That would be very basic, such as the mistake history channel 'egyptologists' make by trying to superimpose Orion's belt onto Giza. But no, I feel the energy from the stars are utilized, whether purely symbolically, or through some ritualistic means of connecting with the higher dimensional energetic current they represent, to cultivate specific energies within the soul in order to development an inner body used after death. My suggestion is this: when someone is working with these specific energies on their internal energetic body throughout life, will their practices have objectively different influences on their energy body, compared to those whom develop a different internal energy body using different stars. Really... that is my question... I am quite sure they do differ at the higher levels, but am here to learn why and how (=

Hi -- very much agreed. I am mostly curious about the specific differences of the various paths and how they result in different higher bodies and the realms they are connected to!

Hi Bindi -- before I comment on how I do not fundamentally agree that all people have an entirely identical subtle energy body, I wanted to mention something relating to the bioenergetics of the physical bodies vs. internal spiritual bodies created through inner alchemy. I think we would all agree their is an objective system of 'channels' and energy centers of the nodes and organs. Practitioners are generally informed of this early on...to be eventually shown how they are to use a developmental system to build an internal energetic body they will utilize in the after life. Regardless of the energetic principles constant for physical bodies, I am primarily concerned with the differences of energetic vessels created within, for the soul. These later vessels seem to be much more targeted, for example at a specific god, heaven, or other realm. As such I am wondering how differences in modern internal alchemy practices could result in a different spiritual locale for the practitioners once the internal energy body is birthed.

Hi RiverSnake! Thanks for commenting. At the moment I seem to be persuaded, in agreement with what you mentioned above, that different systems do in fact work with objectively different energies. There are some who think however that this difference in methodology for cultivating energy results in the same destination, and while I think this has some evidence to be the case in the very distant long term, within the foreseeable future I wonder how the afterlife differs amongst practitioners who utilize different energies. Understanding the specific trajectory of the soul after this lifetime seems to be my primary interest. Any thoughts on how the differences in these systems might result in a different spiritual locale for the energetic body being built?

Well said, indeed. Decisions, decisions...

Hi there -- It would be something requiring tremendous evidence to start from ground zero, however if you are not familiar with specific examples I can perhaps provide some basic information for your consideration. Regardless I personally do not think it is a hard case to make that the internal practices of alchemists have differed somewhat throughout time. Also, obviously the 3 aspects are found in every culture and agree with you about those initial concepts. But no, I do think it is reasonable to say that the energetic model and the internal practices that different practitioners used over the years have evolved significantly. A specific example of this would be to study how the spiritual temples changed throughout time and place. Can you explain to me why the priests at Angkor Wat aligned with such emphasis towards Draco, (no doubt linking it to their afterlife and inner practices), would differ from the internal alchemy alignments with Ursa Major and the 9 Star practices of the Daoists? Do you think that all of these religions end with the same afterlife then? Maybe a clearer question for me to ask is, how it is that you think the inner structures of their energy bodies have remained the same when the symbolism and pantheons of practices can change so much...