S:C

Can you please elaborate what you mean by this? Giving an example? Why is the one being nurtured driven down? ? Understanding this is not easy, the video doesn't help me here, but an example might! Interesting, I thought it was only a womans name. This is difficult to answer. Patterns and themes are concepts in physics - in the physical way of perceiving and approaching the world (Acoustics, Atomics, Electromagnetism, Mechanics, Optics, Thermodynamics...). What patterns and themes are there in work for the non-physical subtle? In a way we perceive the world through these concepts. Physics doesn't lie. Ohms law doesn't lie. Gravity doesn't lie. If it seems to lie, it just means your theory of the reality is here incomplete or something else in the equation was influenced unnoticed. So maybe it isn't unphysical rules per se, but just physical rules that haven't been as neatly discovered and been put in a theory as the others yet, as they are maybe to subtle or to seldom. At some points those 'rules' seem to collide, like for example, when some meditators (often in occurance with breath exercises) have troubles to regulate their body temperature, or others talking about 'heart attack like effects' on the body (arrhytmics, torsade de points, PEA - something that I'd like to call 'energetics' here... hence dual and non dual coming together here maybe) that are usually not seen on an ECG (as it's not the standard emergency case as the practioner seems do be able to deal with it themselves ? ), and the talk of the three burners (even for non meditators) inside etc. etc. So rules of physics seem to collide with well... something else. That's the point where all the Qi talk comes into place and lots of modells (koshas, skandhas,manas etc.) that try to approach 'nondual reality'. But it seems to be rather unpredictable if you're not clairvoyant or else or just as words and concepts that imho fail to portray it adequatly compared to perception. So patterns like physics has them for the physical, do these also exist in the non-physical / subtle ? >>Edit: admittedly used a very wide notion of the term 'nondual' here, - here it reads as that which is not understood by physics, - and not necessarily something necessarily related to gnosis and its effects etc. sorry. Can you please explain on which interpretation you base your comprehension of this expression? Sort of there's a ringing in my ears, that even in Buddhism there are some groups, Mahayana School among others, I believe, - where it is alright to lie, - (maybe ?) under the circumstance that a lie is best for everyone surrounded. But you probably are referring to something else? >>Edit: Would you be so kind as to explain, what exactly you mean by this, please? There's an awful lot on the interwebs, but very different and I'd like to know what exactly you were referring to @old3bob, thanks!

Hard to pin point for me. (I don't know.) One thought about Lilith though arises, - not only does she seem to have two storylines: one as Adams first wife, and the older one as the principle of feminine chaotic darkness force and energy including demonic elements, that was forced in essence by the light male principle of rationality, structure and organisation to leave her place in the tree of life, but destroyed it while leaving. That seems to be the general consensus, as far as there is any, hard to come by anyhow. This is driving the thread away, would find it harder to see connections to nonduality here. If you say so. Have no idea about that... other than some words I researched, didn't recognize a structure/system/pattern/concept, then again, tibetan language and thought concepts seems rather different anyhow.

Indeed not that easy to come toward nondualism from this direction. If one wishes to bypass science and the word consciousness and go by judeo-christian systematics, the older judaic concept of Adam Kadmon (splinters of light without vessels) and the older concept of the Holy Spirit (dove, light, different languages, e.g. distinct but inherent) might be of more help. [Both imply, that in corporeal form they have a distinct inherent quality that is not of their own but universal, even if somewhat hidden, imo.]

Good call! Maybe it might be also be interesting to look at the 'effects' of (non-dual) gnosis in the pragmatical matter of fact aspect of life, not only the effects and phenomenons in meditation (like lights, colours and so on). I'd be interested, if there could be found some commonalities of those who entered (non-dual) gnosis. (Day by day seemingly nothing changes, but if you look back, everything is different? Or rather sudden changes or else...) Did your body change, did you become averse to some, attracted to others? More sensitive, more balanced or the contrary? Did you perceive 'energetics' differently than before? Times of many synchronicities and phases where there were none? What patterns are at work there?

As many others have already pointed out...: In order to be functional in the corporeal dual 'reality' you'd need both things, I guess: embracing the unity/nonduality via surrender/non-action/passivity/stillness and live also the duality/individuality/personhood that means acting/commitment/dedication/devotion to action if you realize it is important be it survival, conscience, morals, "gut feelings" (that means intuition if you have any) or else. Via time the impacts this (friction from the stillness of mind) has on your emotional upheaval/reactivity should get smaller or affect you less... as long as you reflect em (maybe also because you just get exhausted or used to it.) This might allow for space to be filled. (That's my guess.) Actions then might be more fit, even, rounded, balanced and centered, taking in consideration more of the surroundings and thus better outcome in the whole. Would that be a possible interpretation of wei Wu wei? I believe Ayurveda also has this concept of Tamas (Passivity) and Rajas (Passion) when it comes to the constitution of the psyche, both are viewn as pathological. Aim is to avoid these pathologies and get to sattvaguna (equilibrium) ... but whom am I telling this on a forum like this, you probably well know this already. What's funny about this is the subgroups: sattvika has seven and sounds really cultivated, rajasika has six subgroups and the intensest sounds like the race car macho who got the car from his father's money (no offense!) and tamasika has only three, where the most passive one sounds like a bare vegetable (probably an insult to every vegetable!). Somewhat I don't imagine an infinite 'consciousness' in the way @Bindis article describes it so eloquently with four layers, that are still very much manifest in space and time, in my reading of it. Infinity in my worldview is always also time and spacebound, with gravity and so on... In my imagination what I mean would be more unmanifested awareness potential but in a different 'dimension' (not within time/space/gravity - just another concept probably). One question for @stirling: this approach that there isn't even unity or 'the one' but none, this isn't typical Advaita, is it? Where is it from, it's intriguing but particularly hard to grasp for me...

I'd like that. Also those that explain the 'bardo states' or 'death' from the tibetan perspective in general and abstract while being understandable and not full of poetry. Are you at liberty to say which tradition you were teaching? Interesting, for some it's light (so also Andy Irons, the Surfer), others see/hear their God, others simply watch from above, others...

And then there were none... Indeed an interesting turn of events: first: no-second (nondual), second: none. where did the one go? Feels like 'the ending of time' and existence.

Qualia seem to be individual subjective instances of conscious experience. But they seem forever embedded in sensory perception. (If not familiar with the concept of Qualia, but interested, see hidden content or elsewhere.) As if consciousness being some kind of a projection surface (you still know the old slide projectors, where light went through the photo to be displayed on the canvas / screen?) ... what is it if there's nothing projected on it? Empty? Full of unmanifested possibilities? So consciousness 'translates' matters of matter/substance? But is not of substance / matter itself? Edit: I will agree, that it also works in nighttime dreams, daytime aspirations and thoughts that seem to have no basis in matter or the past, at least no obvious connection. But even there, in the dream perception, you perceive via 'unreal/dreamt' sense organs, same with thoughts and aspirations. Edit II: If we say: usual experiences come in via sense organs get translated (via neurons, mostly pyramidal neurons, neural cells, processed by the prefrontal cortex etc. pp) into perceptions and thoughts/concepts/aspirations via 'consciousness', might that be a close call? But then again, what is it that perceives without that in 'gnosis'? What is witnessed if there is 'nothing to witness' ? Who is witnessing it, if in 'gnosis' you are not in a 'place' where matter exists ? 'Consciousness' (witness?) alone witnesses itself? But how does it get to the intrinsic ability to have perception of its own, if in the moments of volition it was just the 'translator' / 'interpreter' of what came in 'from the outside'? Please correct me, if you guess it's otherwise..! So 'gnosis' is not spiritual and not mental, and comes with cessation of volition e.g. stillness? Alright. But if (individual? nonindividual?) consciousness is not on the (lack of better words) dimension of substance, how on earth can it work itself out energetically (electric spin magnetism ?) or via non individual volition, - so to speak - cross the border from the immaterial to the material lands? There would have to be an interaction point... a (divine ?) 'spark' so to speak (but then again, we'd be back to the word gnosis .... seems like forever moving in a circle with words and concepts.)

Good question... was asking because from what you wrote I gathered, that (mental ?) non dual realization has yet nothing to do with spiritually, which made me curious on how you made that distinction (experience?) ? Spirit, if I had to try to get to it's meaning... well the book of the apostles comes to mind (Pentecost/ Whitsuntide). From the wording, spiritus, it seems to refer to a distilled essence. spiritus ( Latin) Origin & history From spīrō ("I breathe, I respire; I live"). Noun spīritus ( genitive spīritūs) (masc.) breath, breathing but also aspiration or lack thereof as well as some animating force. It seems to be related to the translation of 'Atman'... (original pali: breath of life, pneuma). So some'thing' pervading life, felt and perceived only if individual 'volition' is left behind? (Reminds me more of the empty space in atoms, but that again is some'thing' of matter, not empty as in that which perceives without senses or mind. (consciousness?) So non-dual gnosis is non spiritual per se, but not a mental concept either, but works also physically via 'energetics'?

Great discussion! Two questions, if I may... 1) What role does 'will' or 'volition' play here? So first 'gnosis' happens without volition, but later on it would be possible via (individual ?) volition to focus on / switch between the nondual reality or the dual one? 2) How would you say must the word 'experience' under these circumstances be then defined? Perceptions usually appear via the senses (eyes, ears, nose, skin etc.). But this is beyond senses or perceptions. What is it in us that 'experiences' without sensory organs? Qualia - on a science level? (You might call it Atman or the Source of possibilities?) Edit: one more question... - what does development of 'subtle channels' etc. have to do with any of this? Why then, if realization of this and integration into life is (so to speak) the goal of non-dualists ... why is every other system oriented toward 'energetics'? and one more: where does spirit come into the equation? P.S: Sorry if I seem lost, I probably am. I do like a lot of all of your posts, but forgot to hit the like button. Much appreciated.

For the record I want to state that I don't have any unconventional views on climate change. I simply don't have any views about that on my mind.

: @ralisProbably I didn't even understand your original question about whether my linking of an article on the magnetic pole shifting was related to anthropogenic warming. How should I know? Can humans do make the pole shift? Is this correlation or causality? Both opinions alright with me. The outcome, not so much. Wasting energy on political discussions online will not save any energy, neither that of a human, nor that generated by us and running through the cables. This is just nothing I wish to discuss here or at all, at the moment. Why should I have to? :-|

Okay cool. No thanks. I trust you on this matter.

if you were thinking of me, when you wrote this, would like to inform you that I haven't build a firm conviction of my own on this matter, as I am no scientist specialized in this area, but just follow the general consensus - as my mind is really elsewhere (obviously). but I can leave, if I need to have a firm conviction on this to stay (something that seems increasingly hard these times.)

dear moderators, I'd kindly ask, if you would change my name into: schroedingerscat thanks! that's be great.

Nevermind, sorry.

Is what you're saying about the dhyanas in any way corresponding with the layers of the central channel?

please ignore.

follow up question on this... maybe it's just my lacking language skills. I've read that according to TCM (?) for example ginseng will "disperse" the Qi. It doesn't feel like "leakage" though, if I take it (alright in a combination with other supplements, maybe then it's "overwritten" by the others) Leakage, sounds to me like it just drops out gravity like as soon the critical point is reached. Disperse sounds to me like its heat that gives some of it away to the surroundings. Is that correct? I've looked it up in dictionary but cannot grasp the difference somehow. Is disperse then only used when people are consolidating / cultivating Jung? 🧐 (I guess not!? So cultivators do no more have loss of Jing?!) So it's a bad thing to 'disperse' (e.g. via Ginseng) if you have a momentarily lack of Jing? How would one know, simply observing ones wishes for "exciting activities"? and before I forget, I always get confused when people talk about Jing/Qi/Shen... are they talking about the status of a non cultivator or that of one who reached the change from acquired to congenital (xiantien, houtien etc.)? Because when people talk about Qi, does it mean, they have consolidated Jing to Qi? Or are they talking about what everyone, including non cultivators have? Is that a one time milestone or a ongoing challenge?

I wouldn't dare to!

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/19/world/magnetic-fields-earth-intl-scli-scn/index.html maybe some interesting 42.000 year old worldwide weather report news (called the Adams Event ), pole is shifting a bit even now while you're reading.

in fainting too? quite interesting, thanks. is there a medical explanation for this phenomenon? why does this happen and what for? edit: no disrespect, just curiosity. addendum: just before signing up here, I had read a story here in the forum about a 18 year old (edit: young 25 years old) woman (just after finishing school graduation) who went to a retreat for several days, which was not monitored very well, there was only video instructions and they weren't allowed to talk. (forgot the name of the group, some male master via old video, seemingly lots of people.) she mentioned getting in _ some _ that clear light state, but no one took her seriously or could help her. (staff denied her asking for answers, parents sent her to the clinic and she got meds, but somehow still managed to throw herself of a bridge twice... as she didn't properly ended her life the first time - she thought what she experienced was death, and she should have died that time and something must have gone wrong - in her opinion - , so she wanted to 'fulfill' the experience or like... ) and no one had any idea what was going on. but the retreat seemed to have worked just too well for her. (better than she could handle. stated some members here. - probably another thread yet.) search engine seems to have lost it for me, - there even was a newspaper article, (but I remember @Nungali posted his 'mystical waterfall story' just below... still couldn't find it.) so this seems to happen occasionally, thus my asking about it. anyone who remembers this thread? what happened? Edit II: found the thread again... Goenka retreat it was. Thanks, @Mark Foote it doesn't mention if she saw "the" clear light, (- must have been speculation on my part here) AND it only has a pretty picture of a waterfall posted by @Limahong not the waterfall story I mentioned up (probably read those parallel and made a connection.) Edit III: about this, I had the thought, - even if heretic - that it might be symbolism, - sun and moon often stand for polar energies quite intense ones, - water, earth and air (metal and or wood) often stand for something else in this context, depending on the origins (indian, daoist, western) of the text. like e.g. the story of Jesus and Pete when they were walking on the waters, it might be also seen 'merely' symbolic, depending on the context and perspective you take (belief in contrast to 'strange emotions and/or doubt', - like that story with the four people who had the same divine experience, and the only one who didn't went mad was the one who went home praising God and doing him the honours with his arts... don't know where I read the story, but it seems to be going 'round...)

Sounds poetic (translated in my language). Thank you! Truth is, I am a bit afraid of too much or too strong experiences at the moment. Awakening of the inner body sounds pretty intense. My main ambition here is to relax and get - without sleeping or entering deep sleep - to a state of inside calmness - which hopefully gives me the benefit and relaxation of deep sleep (without actually deep sleeping), not looking for more - at the moment at least -, so maybe this is the wrong exercise for me then. But thank you anyways.

Could you go into detail with this? I thought the whole point was to focus on the body part as a scope / form (but not the physicality), while gently letting the body breathe. What is the "sense of Qi" 就轉移到氣感，"sense of light" 就轉移到光感，"concentration" 就轉移到入定 and what do you mean with "manifested / fixed"一就出定? (That is kind of what I gathered with translation.) So you are saying it goes from "breath" -> "sense of qi" -> "sense of light" -> "concentration" -> "form"? And that depending on how long you 'sit and practice'? The goal is somewhat centering, coming to the center, I guess? Or does it go beyond that?