Lucky7Strikes

I like this: everything as an idea, in a field of imagination. I just read a comic book on it. Seems like it's the basis of most occult practices.

Source on the stages of visions?

Wonder where he learned the Kuan Yin Magnetic Qi Gong. Hmm...

You don't. That's the whole point, that you don't know. Hence we have a discussion here. So we choose to believe in what our logic, circumstance, preference, agrees to. Both sides can construct sound logic based on presumptions, which will always be limited to a degree. And in this case believing in free will is much more beneficial to society and yourself than in determinism.

Yes, there is a tremendous difference. One leads to passive acceptance. The other to active exploration.

IMO, R. Balsekar is an extreme advaita teacher, a foremost figure in the 'neo-advaita' movement whose teachings are border line nihilistic. The teaching against free will is impractical because whether you believe in it or not, choices are made everyday. Denying free will is an intellectual analysis gone awry because of viewing things in the dichotomies of "me" vs. "other," "doer" vs. "done." Anatta teachings of no-self taken to the extreme can result in a similar result. I think it's much better to live with the understanding that life is a series of interconnected free wills, the extent of the web of connections is limitless, but it also does not make each of us mere victims. This to me is beneficial because it encourages cooperation among individuals. It also makes the most practical sense in that it is easily observable in day to day interactions among people. Balsekar can babble about not having free will all he likes and the importance of no effort, but he will die like most of humanity in ignorance of how he has come to be and where he will go. Also he has numerous scandals involving female students and financial greed showing that his realization leads to nothing more than mere material pleasures. This is a good article on his limited realization: http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org/ramesh_balsekar.html

As a bunch of people have said already, they are the same thing.

Ah, sorry. I didn't mean to indicate that you were dishonest. It speaks more about a part of me in the past thinking that right view and mental realizations were enough. In my opinion everything is within the extensions of awareness/mind. How it is configured and conditioned is what often entraps us into undesirable circumstances, including the body. How extensive our mind's influences are is unknown to most of us due to these blockages from habit and wrong thinking. So ultimately the body and our experience of forms is no different than our mental clingings, that's why siddhis and samadhis are possible. Intensive mind training will eventually release our binding to forms. Bill Bodhri's stuff explains this well through his personal experiences where the channels and transformative phenomena happen naturally through meditation on emptiness, no-self and such. However, at a certain point, the effortlessness and bliss that begins to dawn may give a false sense of attainment. That because insight has been realized, that the process is complete, a false sense of security and staying "unattached" can result in contentment and usually do. This is why in certain schools are seen as "lower" or Pratyekabuddhas as unfit for the Bodhisattva path. You took a strong leap. But when a practice becomes effortless, it is like being on auto pilot, like cleaning out the a giant debris of mess one by one, imo, it isn't necessarily a good thing. It is a very gradual method of purification, but stable and dependable nonetheless. But since life is so uncertain, any progress we make in the mental realm can be suddenly afflicted by physical conditions we are still bound to. That's why Milarepa was continuously invoking his fear of death while cultivating. It was urgent to him because he knew that there were karmic forces within him that could ripen in his next life that will set him back into cyclical existence. Most of us do not remember what we have learned in past lives. Hence in tantra the effectiveness of its methods in one lifetime are stressed. Milarepa was familiar with mahamudra teachings of non-action, yet his main practice was tummo, and the reason he lived in seclusion was to complete the yoga. Tantric masters all have relied on yogic methods, and Dzogchen, despite all its talk of remaining in the pure natural state, the unification of ground, path, and fruition, likewise do so also. The Buddha prior to enlightenment practiced pranayama for a long time. Yogic methods are moreover non-sectarian. It isn't Buddhist but biological. It is also not analytical but direct. I find that we often approach the writing of tantric master the wrong way. They are expressions of their states of being and not an intellectual presentation that pits arguments of self vs. no-self. At a certain stage those things cease to matter, they are revealed clearly. We give them more importance than they actually deserve. Those debates are among scholars who are like the blind men trying to describe an elephant. I'm glad this thread can bring our cultivation down to a bare practical level of experience and tangible results. I had to be honest with myself in how much the understanding of emptiness and no-self has helped me progress along the path, but from my experience, by themselves it is very difficult to make true progress while living in the world.

Yes, I agree. But instead of having "no expectation," I try to cultivate infinite expectation, as I have all the time in the world because I am certain my mind and intentions to become liberated will not die, that it is in fact without beginning or end. That's why the question of patience vs. impatience struck me a while back. My attitude in practice is not "ok, let's achieve a,b, c," but rather, "I will achieve a,b, c no matter how long or what effort it takes." It makes practice more consistent and relaxed. As for breakthroughs, I noticed that too. The major changes in our consciousness and body seem to occur when we least expect it. When the mind is loose and rested.

Yes, the circumstances of life become limitation for such practices. The Buddhadharma is great because it offers ways for householders, yogis, monks, the less expedient, most expedient, etc. Ultimately all path is mind-path. But in our human condition it is a very gradual path to simply traverse via the mind alone. It is safe and stable, but nonetheless takes years if not lifetimes to cultivate in such a manner. A prime example of mind path today I see is Zen, although the full lotus itself is an alchemical practice, these days it is discarded as unnecessary. Yet when you look through the history of Zen, more and more true masters have disappeared. It is rare to hear of masters who can dictate their path in and out of death as Zen masters were known for, usually it's now just about having a peaceful mind. Any notions of "attainments" are now shunned as mere attachments. But let's be honest. You cannot achieve the same profound result by just mind training in a single lifetime. If it was so, the tantras wouldn't have been distinguished as the most expedient means compared to the sutta traditions of Hinayana. They require greater commitment for a reason. Samadhi and siddhis are indicators that your mind is penetrating the illusory hold on your bodily form, the bind to life and rebirth. They are necessary signs, biological changes from cultivation. Others may have no idea about them because displaying them is needless, but you as a practitioners should be aware of them. It shows that you are not just playing around with the intellect.

I am familiar with Bodri's material that stems from Nan Huai Chin's work. Tao and Longevity deals with the bodily changes, yet they are mostly trivial changes to the body, such as opening the channels, the orbit, clearing of the blockages. The Shurangama sutra is an incredible source for cultivation but it is a difficult text to study on your own and experiences may not necessarily line up with its stages. I don't know, I am still studying it. I feel that a majority of truly esoteric practices are not revealed. Transformation of the body is indicative of transformation of the mind. Insight and alchemy really shouldn't be distinguished. If you are developing insight yet there are no tangible alterations to your consciousness and form it shows the limited influence of your insight practice. Because the body is seen to be "of mind," it is important to understand that insight does not end in the mental realm alone, but be used to liberate the forms. From what I understand the window for true alchemical cultivation, due to its usage of jing and prenatal energies is small. The older you get it seems as though the course for future karmic birth is strengthened and one become more rigid. Just sharing some thoughts...

I partially disagree. Most drug addicts and alcoholics I know know that they have a problem. They resort to substances because they don't see much of a choice for sources of escape or pleasure or are too ingrained in their habits to find a way out. It's an important part of their lives. If you don't give something importance it means that you are unafflicted, it is not troublesome. If you feel the urge to unbind yourself from it, then it is affecting you that it provokes a reaction. You are finding a solution because you have made something a problem or see it as one. That's not true. Being unafflicted and unattached have their limits. The key is transformation, and here Taoism seems to offer more concrete methods than much of public mind-oriented Buddhsim. Try to stay up for 3 days straight and say you won't be afflicted by drowsiness. Or try stop eating for 4-5 days and say you won't be afflicted by hunger. The realization of emptiness, as long as it is within mental capacities, will be prone to afflictions due to the limitations of the fragile body. There are limitations of the body you cannot overcome, even pain to a certain degree. So how will you know you won't have a problem in the bardo states when you have no idea what body or condition you will be bound to? Then can he enter into life and the life after this at will? NDE's don't mean much unless you can control it. No different than many people who experience them.

Well, the afflictions don't seem like afflictions. Perhaps not giving them much importance is a way of transcending them. But it still does not guarantee insight or the ability to transform one's awareness after death, or even in this very life in the face of tremendous suffering. How do you know rebirth is based on afflictions beyond what is written in the suttas? Do you have direct experience of this? Of how your afflictions produce the body and conditions of birth? Has realizing emptiness given you insight into this? Because I doubt it. The Buddha upon enlightenment is said to have seen the arising and passing of sentient beings directly through his divine eye. He realized the twelve links directly and not through some analysis. It's the meaning of omniscience. ...pass a test? That seems silly. I'd tell Mara that he is just being silly. You're probably the best judge for your own enlightenment. Does you Taiwanese teacher actually have the ability to transcend bodily death? Does he know this directly? What can he do besides be unafflicted by daily difficulties, or be unattached, or be in a spontaneous unbound state. Can he still be such a way when he suffers brain damage? Or extreme bouts of hunger? As in, is he independent of the whims of the flesh?

I would like it better if you did not write so surely of the deva realms or the conditions of such birth. You simply do not know this and have not had experience of rebirth in higher realms. It's only been read about (I presume). IMO all these spiritual ideas should be tangible, and faith, although required to a certain degree, should be limited as much as possible. Although the Buddha's teachings contain a lot about navigating through daily life, the ultimate purpose of the Dharma is not just overcoming daily afflictions, as you quoted by Namdrol. Daily afflictions don't really concern me that much anyway, whether I overcome them or they overcome me seem trivial. I don't think it should for practitioners who are striving for bodhi. Why wouldn't you not be allowed to disclose this info? Isn't it significant to know whether your teacher, and the methods he has given you, does in fact lead you beyond the results of this life? I also don't understand why the Lord Yama telling him whether he is enlightened or not bears any legitimacy to that question. It isn't in my imagination that the Buddha will one day show up and tell me I am enlightened or not. I don't think that makes much sense, like someone handing you a diploma. I don't remember reading about Yama showing up in front of the Buddha to tell him, "ok, I think you are enlightened now."

Liberation from what? Mental suffering? You can attain liberation from mental suffering by setting up a comfortable living standard and indulging in the senses moderately. Having a good partner, a nice hobby, stable home, and faith in some sort of comfortable afterlife or even an acceptance of no after life. You don't need to go into spirituality in order to do this. I find a lot of spiritual traditions who impose mental suffering, the "you can only be truly happy if you believe in this" attitude to be bullshit. You don't need no-self or whatever. If it is from rebirth and the samsaric cycle I want to ask you if Thusness can truly say he has been freed from it. Or whether even if he can directly see how he has come to exist in this life, and where he sees him going after death. Or is his conviction, and also yours likely, merely rooted in the suttas?

I think this state can become stagnant in the understanding of "as-is" ness, the suchness the experience brings. It can lead to complacency, the concept of non-clinging and letting go. It is wonderful when seen from the transition from neurotic and obsessive states of mind in the past, but to understand this as the finality of realization can become a limiting factor. One may sit in shikantaza all life and float along with the current, which is not what one should aspire to. In the Mahamudra and Dzogchen traditions, the naturalness of mind is emphasized, but we must remember that the other half of these traditions are esoteric yogic practices that is beyond mind practices. This is where the practicality of all this should really be taken into account, and one should be very honest as to whether he/she has indeed transcended cyclical life and death, whether or not one has surely developed that ability and not reside in some faith. Cultivation in these traditions are much more than having a peaceful mind in this life.

In a crude sense, you can view everything in these terms, goal, accomplishment. This is unattractive from the point of view of spirituality, but one shouldn't deny the role of purpose in cultivation. How you approach it is another story. In my experience, you won't progress so far if you do not have the proper mindset. So at worst you may become addicted to bliss states and so on, but my view is that these problems sort themselves out easier than people assume. Your mind will want to move on and search for wisdom. And wisdom and proper insight will feed your practice in a positive cycle. The true danger is in rigid conceptuality, and this includes emptiness teachings, or non-action teachings. They can greatly hinder progress by giving the practitioner a false sense of having arrived at some imagined goal, that he is now enlightened because of insight. So it becomes a crutch or really slows down your potential. I think it depends on how one views karma. Whether as a mystical force behind occurrences or chains of actions depending on your immediate reactions. It's probably a bit of both, as you wrote above. Your type of patient and thoughtful reaction will cease the chain of negative karmic reaction that could have been set to motion. But along with insight one should also develop skillful means to deal with negative karmic forces. This is what healers, teachers, and the generally virtuous members of society do. They have influence over how events can turn out, not just how to cope with them when shit comes your way, you can bear it better by remaining in detached, spontaneous, natural states as spoken in non-dual traditions. What I meant by that example is that the ability to escape cyclical and unwanted birth and pains associated with it is exactly that: ability. As you wrote that "if you get far enough in meditation you can be reborn in higher realms," it seems that no one is going to transport you there by putting a scale on your mind to see if your understanding has depth or not. There seems to be this faith that once you have realized emptiness you will be granted a key to these states of birth. IMO It is all really the development of one's abilities and wisdom to navigate through life and death. It's why everyone here cultivate in the first place and why there is such importance put on realizing the nature of reality. We have to always remember the practical reasons why we practice.

Yes I agree. The extent of realization has far reaching applications than some people seem to think here. And I admit I used to think in those lines, that to just "get it" was enough. But the conceptual understanding or any idea of understanding is really just entry ways that let us dig deeper into our being and layers of underlying energies. And here, effort is necessary in the process of purification. It is so easy to think "I get it" because of the nature of some of these teachings. Such as "remaining in the natural state," "being effortless," "non-doing," "you are already enlightened," "everything is already emptiness and nirvana." Although these understandings are adequate in gradually transforming our lives, the depth of their effect depends largely on how willing you are to transform your inner fixations and habitual trappings. The paradox is that such ideas can become easy comfort cushions one returns to in order to avoid exploring one's physical, energetic, and mental depths. I see this in a lot of non-duality teachers and Buddhist practitioners. They say all else is just mental clinging. Chop wood, carry water. IMO, this is confusing the method for being the destination because the relief it offers from the day to day trouble of life. But don't tell me that for such a person facing death, he has escaped the "cycle" or become an "immortal" or such things. Yes, the experience will be much more smooth and accepted, but so is morphine for that matter. To believe that your wisdom here can carry you further into existence after death (if you truly know that there is such a thing in the first place) is mere faith to some of these realized arm chair masters. Just because you have understood emptiness does not mean that tomorrow someone will hand you a ticket to "no-rebirth." From my perspective, that's nothing more than a fantasy, like if you understand emptiness someone will bring you to a train station to the gates of non returners. If you have not directly realize how you have been born to this plane you sure will not be able to guide yourself out of it or through it with your own intentions. I believe that here Taoism is more upfront than Buddhism. The results are tangible. If you have transcended the samsaric cycle or become an immortal the attitude is a "show me" attitude. I get tired of people saying, "oh that's another clinging that brings you suffering." That's why methods in Taoism and esoteric practices are more appealing to me these days than philosophical right view stuff. Yes, they are important, but the realizations come through meditation anyway. There never really is a need to overly fixate oneself on them because just as compassion is a natural development, so is wisdom as you dig deeper into self introspection and meditation and energy practice. All the stuff about "trappings to esoteric practices like the MCO or whatever" is just overstated.

I think this is a good way to think about cultivation, as a raft to help you along a raging river. But I disagree that there is a safety on the other shore, and this is where the metaphor seems a little inadequate. Once you have secured a raft, the most stable one possible, where to then? How will you know where the raft is headed or where to steer it? Will you be on it as the endless river pushes you back and forth at its whim? I believe there is no such doctrine that can be this theoretical raft that can protect one forever. Right view by itself is a very gradual path, it's more like a compass than a raft. It shows you a brief glimpse for the direction you are going. But let's not kid ourselves. Just because you have right view it does not calm the waves and is only a slight guide to the direction you might see yourself headed in. You have just become better at withstanding the storm.

IMO what friend wrote here is more significant than a mere, "being patient will help you not get overly stressed in traffic." It has to do with our purpose behind cultivation. The Buddha' teachings range from alleviating suffering in day to day life, to attaining complete omniscience. So this inquiry is very wide in scope. We argue constantly about Buddhist doctrine here. The language, terms, and approaches, there are probably hundreds of variations of them that may transform the way we live. Yet, in studying these doctrines I sometimes forget that there should be something attained from all of this, that who's right and who's wrong about what the Buddha said, what "emptiness" means, what is d.o. on and on don't really matter that much. We should always re examine the effects of these spiritual practices on our lives. The terms are just to give your mind new avenues for considering reality and experience. But this can be achieved from anywhere, and Buddhism is nothing more than a tiny fraction of the potential pools of knowledge you can draw from. I've had deep insights into improving my life from social experiences and hobbies that were much more effective than any passage from a sutra or a meditation session. To believe in your ideas or "variation" above all else is just bullshitting yourself, another ego trip, or an insecure way to legitimize yourself. Each and everyone's paths is different. I don't consider this statement lightly as if it's from a fortune cookie wrapper. It's really a very difficult idea to accept, that we each have different modes of improving towards greater happiness or fulfilling our purposes. It gets rid of any pretentious notion of "doctrine" or hierarchies among individuals and brings it down to a very practical level, as in, how does this help you, did this idea appeal to you, has it served your needs... So for a long time I went about it in an unnecessarily complicated way, as witnessed by bums on these 20+ page threads. The attainments from understanding emptiness or realizing luminosity and what not are, imo, not at all that special as it's made out to be (it's really just relative). For instance, I would ask Xabir if he, since he believes that he has realized emptiness, can transcend death with certainty, as if he has now learned to drive a car. Or know that he would be able to keep his wisdom with an onset of dementia or a next life, or know where he will be in that time. And the answer to these is a likely no, he can only assume from the written words. Realizing emptiness may unbind you from obsessive thoughts and get rid of a lot of needless suffering stemming from clinging. That is a very tangible practical benefit. But let's say a grave difficulty overcomes your life and there is tremendous suffering, I don't know, like getting sold to slavery, or thrown into war, or enduring a famine. What the realization of emptiness will do is likely alleviate the mental anguish to a point, but there will still be great suffering. It may be slightly more bearable. But because the practitioner is only shielded by his mental capacities, his powerlessness and the onslaught of suffering will not cease. Sure, the sheer patience, peaceful, and unattached mind will help a person endure through these storms bit by bit. But that is a slow process and not even a guaranteed one. We are always on the verge of being a full victim to life's circumstances with our mental capacity only thinly protected. I guess it really comes down to power. And power is most practical. From what I have seen on the forum here on these Buddhist discussions, the benefits are made to sound much more grandiose, if not misleading, than they really are. The worse aspect I notice is that the concentration on doctrine is limiting. They narrow it down to a term, a single idea to be understood and realized, when it's not anything like that at all. IME, it's a continuous flow of refinement and expansion. The realizations are little bumps of knowledge and to treat them as truths that have been understood is to suddenly put a cage around your potential for growth. You've already set a boundary to something that you have no idea where begins or ends.

The first year I began doing energy work, I got sick really often and had the severest fevers and body aches. I heard that this isn't so uncommon due to blockages being released. I did try to practice in those circumstances mistakenly believing that it would help me progress faster but was just straining my body needlessly. I should have used your common sense and rested to let the toxins naturally dissipate. Also I always kind of enjoyed being sick, it can provide a good deep rest.

I don't understand why you two are having this discussion here. Take it to Dharma Wheel so Namdrol can size you up both.

Yup. Just names. You can read the wikipedia page on bodhicitta. But in my experience, it's just another term from compassion and luminous aspect of the mind revealed when dualistic clinging is released.

Ah ha! A quoted excerpt finally! I agree. But there is love in lust. Lust is like a malformed and misdirected love, the energy is there, the jing essence. One shouldn't deny that energy but seek to transform it.

Yeah, and who's perspective is this? Yours? Some god's? Apparently those gurus will probably not help you. Why should they at the expense of their own evolution and enlightenment? Actually the god realm is just one of the six realms within the samsaric wheel. Your making penance is just you yourself whipping your own back. Spiritual cultivation is all about pleasure and bliss. Nirvana is the greatest bliss, not numbing yourself into blank states.