Lucky7Strikes

Clarify what you mean by mind.

Yeah but that acceptance ceases too right?

Well I wouldn't be surprised because you haven't really put forth the inquiry. It probably sounds the same because I'm trying to be concise and it happens the lingo used is pretty similar.. I just pointed that out because you said all that stuff about knowing impermanence, how the Buddha was, what he taught etc. Forgiving?! Lol, we're just having a discussion. Oh so you now understand impermanence? Should we start that discussion again? If you want we can go back to the questions Gold and I put up towards the end of it. I never said there wasn't a connection. You are getting defensive and your posts are driven with the intentions of concluding with "hey, you are wrong!" not from genuine reflection. Hence the unnecessary "hey you don't see a connection?!" I never said there wasn't a connection...

Neti..neti..

Whoa! Wait a second! Didn't we go through 5 to 6 pages of discussion to point out how there were certain inconsistencies in your views of impermanence? There are tens of thousands of sutras of the Buddhist teachings. You've misquoted parts of suttas multiple times in the thread which shows that you don't have a great understanding on what the Buddha said even in the most well known suttas. So how can you suggest "oh it all comes down to this one phrase! 'things change'"? I'm not saying you should read all of the sutta's to say something like that but at least you should know significance of dependent origination or the difference of Anica and Anatta?? Hahahahhahahahahhahahhahahhahahah!!!! That's great! But your discoveries may not be the Buddha's discoveries jut because it correlates to an abstract term like "impermanence." Your experience does not authenticate the Buddha unless you claim to be fully "awakened" which is what a Buddha means. But it seems like you still suffer, so I wouldn't say that. This is good, the thread has come full circle. See how it can mislead pracitioners into emulating realizations just because they think someone is enlightened. Hence they accept teachings like "impermanence" or "discontinuity" without fully inquiring into their views, oh I don't know, because the enlightened person said it!

Clairvoiyance tends to happen when chi channels begin to open up in the head. You may hear voice of saints, see other people's sights, have obe's...yes all kinds of blissful experiences can be there when one goes through concentrative states or does energy practices. You are right in that they are not special in themselves, just as drug induced states, but it's curious that you did not investigate into these states. How do they arise? What makes them arise? How are varying bliss states different from mundane states? Bliss states induced by realization is different, they are much more subtle, because reality is seen to have a natural blissful quality to it that have been clouded by neorotic attachments. Instead of a feeling of "attaining" it, it feels more revealed as a byproduct of insight. Everything begins to be natural and effortless. Then I guess you must experience whether or not your methods for ending suffering will work. But please save this thread, when conditions arise you can refer back to it and tell us how it went, and whether you have found happiness and end of suffering.

First of all they are not something you go through and then come out of, at least according to what is written. They are realizations as Xabir pointed out repeatedly in his examples about the Santa Claus. There are certain mental and physical changes that begin to take place when these realization take place. I highly doubt you experience much because your tendency to circulate everything into conceptual pinnings and extremes. I have only briefly glanced at what Thusness has gone through because there is less emphasis on these experiences due to tendency of practitioners to get attached to it. From my experience the realizations, even if partially seen, bring about transformative changes in how we perceive reality. Of course they are different from person to person, but my reading of various practitioner's accounts show similarities. For instance when there was a partial insight into I Am, the sense of presence became very powerful I lost sense of my local body. The central channel opened and it felt as if everything within this state of being melted into a sense of oneness. I was aware in deep sleep states, so I didn't really know when I was asleep or not. I spent about 1 to 2 hours in bed a day for a whole week and never felt more awake than ever. I ate like a loaf of breAd a day. I felt my inner dan tien light up and time was not much linear anymore. There was a never felt sense of bliss awareness pervading throughout everything seen, heard, touched...A tremendous energy was everywhere. This is just an instance of something I went through due to rising of insight of presence. The blog doesn't demand anything from you. You take what you want from it. It's not like the blog stands over you and go "I am your Guru! Listen to me!" And in fact Thusness says it everywhere that "its a sharing." I am concerned about suffering. And to understand suffering impermanence is important, as well as awareness that you dismissed. I did address your inquiries about suffering by stating that ontology directly affects suffering. Our view of reality conditions how we experience and suffering is one of them.

Sorry if that sounded a bit too preachy. I can see how you could've read it like that, but sometimes I get excited about contemplation...I talk to myself like that too as a form of encouragement and it sort of seeps out towards others.. I am a bit confused when you say you've been through the 7 stages...the 7 stages are the experiences of Thusness, not you or me. If you read it carefully, Thusness acknowledges that certain insights can arise before the other. It should serve as points of inquiry and not some map wherein you go, "ok, I'm gonna go to level 1 and to level 2, and then I'll be enlightened and understand all this" especially if you don't have access to Thusness like Xabir does. The understanding must come from your own inquiry and meditation. I asked you about the I AM realization and you didn't know what it was...in Thusness's stages, if you were following it like a map, it's stage 1. The experience/recognition of presence doesn't disappear at stage 2, stage 3...etc. It deepens, there is understanding of that experience throughout. It's not Xabir's blog that's at fault here. Awareness is important. You are aware now aren't you? Isn't that why you suffer? Since you are so concerned with suffering you should see that you being aware of it has some significance. But as Gold said, Thusness said this, Buddha said that, ultimately doesn't matter at all. Sit down yourself and contemplate reality. It's simple...move your hand, look at it. How is that experience? Don't just say "Impermanence!" because it's not as simple as a word or a concept.

Throughout this thread we have shown shortcomings in your view of impermanence and constancy. How can you say you want to "help" other people when you haven't enough inquiry into your own views? This is a discussion. No one is trying to help anyone in the sense of teaching. Since you seem prone to Buddhism, it's a bit of a head scratcher when you say stuff like this. You've often quoted Buddhist scriptures out of context. You've denied the basic teachings of the Buddha (conditional/dependent arising) which was the insight that arose when he awakened, at least according to the suttas. Annica is only an aspect of a wide range of teachings in Buddhism. The view that all things are impermanent is not that special at all. Many wise people can tell you that. It's like a fortune cookie phrase. How can you say you understand the Buddha's teachings more or less declare whether the Buddha was like this, like that?

Yes! Good! You're getting somewhere. You can't find some super awareness apart from phenomena right? Look more into it. When we say seeing is not separate from awareness, does that mean that the eye is aware of itself? Because that would mean dead people would have eye-awareness! Same applies to sensations, perceptions, thoughts, etc. Investigate more into the nature of this awareness!

That's not what I meant by seeing things as absolutes. Seeing things as absolutes is a tendency. Ultimately there is no real seeing of absolutes. A deluded person seeing things in cyclical relativity, he/she is trapped in a circle of what he wrongly perceives to be absolutes. Like you are pointing out (but don't understand) is: the mind says "let's not cling" and when some troubling thought occurs, the mind says "let's not cling," in which case you have appeases clinging with clinging. It's taking a medicine again and again without knowing how it is supposed to cure you. I think you understand this aspect, but what you are doing is another "neti neti," which is ok, "no view." Then you have a view of "no view," so you again go "no view." It is a neurotic cycle of absolutes again ("no view of no view is a view, oh no view, another view..etc). The view is there, but realization has not arisen. So the insight must arise, as Xabir put it in his monster example, is that there has never been clinging in the first place. That experience has always been liberated from beginning, just the recognition has not been there. Imo, you need to deepen your shamatha meditation by learning to be aware without thoughts. Realization doesn't happen in thought. It happens with the quality of awareness of thoughts. Not by throught themselves. Meditate on the concept of awareness so that the luminous aspect of experience is seen. This can't be related to you through conceptual understanding, but through direct experience. That's why meditation is important and not just sorting stuff through conceptual logic.

Have you seen the Alex Collier videos? When I went to a seminar by Max, her showed some pictures of extraterrestrials...and had some cool stories. Fake, photoshopped, or whatever, it was interesting.

The front page seems like a good balance of discussions on Taoist and Buddhist philosophy, energy practices, practical questions, spirits, jing cultivation, sex, testosterone levels, etc....what I like about ttb is that it follows the Taoist tradition of being very practical and grounded. I've benefited greatly from debates on this forum that have subsequently helped my practices and meditation. Yes, it's frustrating because egos get involved your beliefs take a hit, but it also propels you to rethink your views on things with care and passion. It's not something you do with contents in a book or a teaching which can be easily interpreted to suit the safety of your belief system. Also it's fun! And engaging if you are open minded. One thing I don't find productive in a discourse is when it's in the lines of "You have your views, I have my views, let's bow and go our own ways..." That doesn't mean we should argue at every corner, but when a debate is prompted and both sides are willing, it's actually pretty good as long as there is an understanding behind it that both are trying to improve their views and others as well. Haha, a quote just came to my mind: "board don't hit back!"

I understand your ego has taken some damage throughout this thread from being pointed out certain errors in your logic, but your behavior towards Xabir is silly. You are going for the extremities of "yes" and "no" which is precisely what the Buddha warned against, since that is how the conceptual mind sees things: as an absolute "this" and "that." Your entire conversation with Xabir's been purposefully in the line of "just say this, ha! you said it! gotcha! I'm right!" This is why shamatha jhanas are cultivated along with vipassana inquiry so you get an understanding of how to see things, and to see that seeing clearly without preconceived notions/habits.

Your understanding is more in line with the "neti, neti" approach. "Don't cling! Don't cling!" Or you are simple trying to end the skanda of seeing forms. But after that you will just have flowing sensations, which is not any understanding or wisdom at all. Also, you are contradicting yourself again as you did in the discussion about continuity. "Yes it most certainly is a specific experience. It is a mind state which is cultivated." is what you said! And you followed that up with a out of context quote about abiding in "voidness" by sariputta... But that is another "seeing" isn't it? Another view according to your line of thinking? Emptiness of emptiness? You see how your approach of "not this" "not that" is just a neurotic cycle? Understand that you can't "cling" to that which always is. It is self-evident and effortless as it reveals its truth moment by moment. Infact, reality cannot be clung to at all, because it is by nature empty. That's why it is said that samsara has not even risen at all, but that it is nirvana itself. Understanding this leads to effortless recognition of all this arising, hence it is said that phenomena self-liberate upon arising, this is the simultaneousness of arising and passing away.

.... Nice constructive criticism... Look into the usage... Mūlamadhyamakakārikā (Treatise on the Middle Way): Whatever is dependently co-arisen, That is explained to be emptiness. That, being a dependent designation, Is itself the middle way. (Treatise, 24.18) Something that is not dependently arisen, Such a thing does not exist. Therefore a nonempty thing Does not exist. (Treatise, 24.19) But anyways, I made too strong a statement by saying emptiness is not in the Pali canon (but I did say indirectly). I should've said the way emptiness as emphasized in the Mahayana (as in the Heart Sutra) and Vajrayana traditions is presented as dependent origination. The point of this discussion was whether emptiness (as used in the Mahayana doctrine I presumed since you brought up the Heart Sutra) was a state to enter in. As the quotes discourse above shows, it is not. The Buddha says He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Meaning all concentrative states, including the jhanas of nothingness/perception-nonperception, formless, themselves, or whatever arises due to mental fabrications. Recognizing it as such is realization of their "emptiness." Hence it is not a state, but a recognition, a realization.

And the earlier link you quoted is not the emptiness propounded in the Heart Sutra. It rather has to do with concentration and a path to developing shamatha jhanas all the way to nothingness, then to perception or non-perception... [The Buddha:] "Yes, Ananda, you heard that correctly, learned it correctly, attended to it correctly, remembered it correctly. Now, as well as before, I remain fully in a dwelling of emptiness. Just as this palace of Migara's mother is empty of elephants, cattle, & mares, empty of gold & silver, empty of assemblies of women & men, and there is only this non-emptiness — the singleness based on the community of monks; even so, Ananda, a monk — not attending to the perception[1] of village, not attending to the perception of human being — attends to the singleness based on the perception of wilderness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of wilderness. "He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of village are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of village. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure." The emptiness in the heart sutra is more in realizing the dependent nature of all phenomena..it has more to do with the "release" the Buddha speaks about in the end: "He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' That all states of awareness are mentally fabricated! Including any state to remain in abide in.

Whoa, no, no. It's kinda weird you wrote: "think before you post!" and then none of your links work. .

Ok...whew, I had to google those quotes... That quote is from Sariputta quoting a section from the Buddha's teaching on liberating each states of jhanas. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.106.than.html "Then again, the disciple of the noble ones, having gone into the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or into an empty dwelling, considers this: 'This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to the dimension of nothingness. This is declared to be the second practice conducive to the dimension of nothingness. "Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not anyone's anything anywhere; nor is anything of mine in anyone anywhere.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension" If you follow the discourse the part about emptiness is not used in the sense of Mahayanas, but as a stage in understanding the emptiness of self (anatta) when traversing the various janas, which is not why shunyata is revered as a realization in Mahayana. Shunyata is present in the pali canon, but so directly in the way Mayahana or the Heart Sutra, which you quoted, links it to dependent origination.

None of your links work.

Here, I found something interesting: http://www.heartofnow.com/files/image.buddhist.world.html

That's kind of ironic because you don't really think in your sleep Entering non-thought samadhis isn't that hard...you are glorifying a certain mind state which is important in settling your mind and all, but the point is to understand the nature of your experience and not entering these states. No feeling is translatable to words..words are symbols for communication. Just because you've experience something that is a bit different than your usual states that have been labeled, doesn't make it too special..I mean, how do i translate to you the taste of new food? The key question is not "what" this experience is, whether thoughts, stillness, pain, bliss, but "how" it is. Then your awareness of a moment takes a reflective approach to seeing it, which is basically the way you know you are alive. Then your inquiry can take a quite a different road than just "let Stillness enter." And here it's useful to have thoughts.

Emptiness is not in the pali canon...at least not directly. Dependent origination is. Shunyata is a central Mahayana concept. LOL. the Heart Sutra is NOT the pali canon! Here are some thing emptiness is not from Xabir's site: • Emptiness is not a substance • Emptiness is not a substratum or background • Emptiness is not light • Emptiness is not consciousness or awareness • Emptiness is not the Absolute • Emptiness does not exist on its own • Objects do not consist of emptiness • Objects do not arise from emptiness • Emptiness of the "I" does not negate the "I" • Emptiness is not the feeling that results when no objects are appearing to the mind • Meditating on emptiness does not consist of quieting the mind Source: Non-Dual Emptiness Teaching Emptiness is not a path of practice Emptiness is not a form of fruition

Yes I agree. Reality has its Way. But we don't understand it due to habits and wrong views. It makes all the difference! In meditation and cultivation the mind is the most significant. It far more important than Chi channels, posture, this kun-fu etc. I'm not saying I know the "Truth" etc., I'm just saying thuscomeone's view is too simple minded and needs further inquiry.

The Buddha often said people were wrong when they were wrong. I mean, a bunch of cultivation schools call people delusional and ignorant. I don't know what you are talking about. Dead tree zen. Stop all thoughts...like a man in a coma. The point is not to stop thoughts. Go try to stop thoughts forever! After sometime they will rise again. Or maybe you'll be brain dead and live through the sensations like a dumb animal. We have to understand the nature of thoughts. Our awareness has a mirror like quality to is, a self consciousness. It's a great tool to look into how things are. .