Lucky7Strikes

Hey Marble, I think you're absolutely right. Life cannot be without an inserted "I" and the seen "rose." Even though the very nature of everything exists as Awareness (hmm...let's call that the Tao ), duality arises for it to be, well, aware. Total subjectivity cannot exist for eternity. Time and space, you and I, and all distinctions are eventually made. It's like the mirror can only be when it makes a reflection. When one acts from non-duality, every moment results in harmony, or is guided towards harmony. This is why Xabir keeps saying that each moment is perfected by itself. Because nothing is taken to be a permanent distinction, there is constant integration with whatever the mind chooses to project (virtue). And yes, the content is, as I mentioned before, shared by other Awarenesses just in matters of taste, the "tree" ness, "Earth" ness, etc. There is dependence, but no true object or subject within the relationship. Even the frame of what is subject and what is object constantly changes. All things "change" in relativity, but the Luminosity that is Awareness is eternal. It must see change, in this case the duality of time, to be. (hmm...Yin and Yang are not one, but they form oneness .) The trouble here is that with statements like above, a person imagines something called Awareness being dependent on another factor, when really, the Dependence IS Awareness. The two cannot be separated. This doesn't mean that there is no "I." The "I" ness, your self consciousness and the energy latent within you is absolutely real. It is free to create distinctions, environments, and even situations. This is what free will is. The more your wisdom of relativity, and the compassion of unity is deepened, the palatte becomes greater and more bountiful. We're all artists here borrowing from "others." . . You need to fight in order to break your assumptions. Someone needs to punch you in the face for you to wake up. So please join in the brawl! . SELF-INQUIRY!!! .

Actually, I'm beginning to see what he means. He understood me correctly too. It's just that, well, he types the same thing many times and one gets used to the words and easily misses the meaning. . I didn't quite understand why Awarness needs something for it to reflect its own existence. Dependent Origination is the only way creation can be. It is a made up duality.

This makes perfect sense. Thank you! . Where does one go from here?

I'm not saying anything is the container. I AM saying that Mind is phenomena. When I say "within" I am pointing to the source of a perceived object. It isn't there, because all it is is the mind. I don't think you're understanding me clearly. There is no flow of phenomena outside of your mind's own creations. YES, YES awareness is a conscious being that creates! It cannot exist without creating! EXACTLY! The concept of "I" can only be if there is the OTHER. The mind cannot know itself. Awareness cannot be aware without creating a mirror, the OTHER. That is why there is creation! HAHAHA! Watch your mind, can you know yourself without an OTHER? Can there be self awareness if there is no duality that arises? Even if you are absorbed in endless formless bliss, the flower in the sky will appear out of absolutely NOTHING! Why? Because your awareness, like the mind, NEEDS the object to know of its own very existence! . I think I'm beginning to see what you are getting at. There cannot be a pure subject. Awareness needs to be reflected for it to be aware. So it's not that luminosity is empty, but that its very nature is Depedent Origination. It is the only way reality can be. ....

Luminosity is not a "state" of non-dual absorption. It is reached through "causes and conditions" as you say, but it is because the causes and conditions were themselves created within the Mind's luminous Awareness. Questioning dispels these false assumptions. This is simply the beginning of true cultivation, where you create infinite virtues to be reflected in other mind "systems." In this case, D.O. is a great tool indeed. You are creating your essence as it would happen in a certain cause and condition within other mind-systems. Anything it is is Awareness, because it is simply existence. This luminosity is the basis for infinite Compassion. Seeing Dependent Origination to everything is infinite wisdom.

Right, there is no ultimate metaphysical essence outside of Awareness. Awareness and its luminosity has always been the nature of phenomena. The distinctions one makes, which is another state of Awareness itself, and an identification with the subject vs. an object is what is illusory. It is the eternal "I-ness." For anything to exist it must be within Awareness, within the Mind. It must be self-conscious, else, how can you know it exists? This is the only quality that cannot be changed and it is permanent. It is neither the observer or the observed because both point to a subject object duality. There never was any such dualities except within the imagination. Your mind has drawn lines in empty space. In reality there is no set distinction between the two. The luminosity is not dependently originated. It is what phenomena is. Dependent origination applies to the content of the luminosity wherein the distinctions of this and that are made. Once this is grasped, there is suddenly that. And then there is suddenly all these definitions, causes, conditions within the Mind. Hence suffering. Dependent origination and self inquiry are both methods of getting rid of the habitual seeds the Mind has accustomed itself to. It is destroying all false causes and discrimination. There is nothing but your own Awareness, and it has the total freedom and infinite potentials to create, interact, and dream. It has created this world, it can create new worlds, live in it, die in it, suffer in it. To realize this is to be freed from identifying with the falsely arisen causes within. And the servant is no longer the master. You are totally alone, everything, and free. You are in everything. And everything is in you. Each mind stream is its own creation. This is not to say that there is no "you" or other. The essence of "other" is projected into your mind. In the same way, your reality is simultaneously happening, reflected, in those you interact with. Actually it is reflected in infinite number of consciousness creations. Note: Certain Taoist methods mention how the practitioner, when he dreams of ascending into the heavens, actually does so both in his mind and in the heavens.

No, my teacher is whoever I come across that offers compelling evidence against my own view of reality. Or offers me new tools to seek greater knowledge of my condition. Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shamanism, Mysticism or whatever. I really don't care. To me, everything that I experience has something to teach. I am not saying this in a cliched way, but I really do feel so. . Whew! It's been a long day. .

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH I will definitely dose on some stinky blue cheese tonight! Thanks! .

I don't know. I must see how my conclusions fit into my experience of reality. I have to contemplate further, but Dependent Origination on the surface made me realize that all distinctions, causes, and effects were illusionary. The question of free will and self identity has always been very elusive. That is why I came back to this thread when I realized that causes, conditions, time, space are all illusionary distinctions. No where could I find a boundary to a perceived event. Everything seems like a dream made up by my mind. And it is totally and completely free in its ability to create and evolve as an artist. I remember once reading about the Buddha being asked why there was suffering in his realm, i.e. Earth. And he replied that the suffering of his land was necessary to motivate others to become liberated. I feel as if I am dreaming that land the Buddha has constructed, only to learn that I am also a creator of realities.

The article addresses Neo-Advaita where all things are said to be of one Consciousness will. But yes, according to D.O., all things are just manifestation of causes and conditions. Your will, desires, intentions, sufferings, and liberation. Basically, you make all that effort to realize that there is nothing to achieve and nothing that could have been achieved in the first place. That your liberation just came about from pre determined causes and conditions that enable it to be so.

Yes, that is precisely right. My will is bound by nothing but my own illusions I have created. But those illusions have been created solely by me and hence I have the total ability to become free from it. No one exists "from" anything. But they can only create their experience according to the medium they are able or choose to project. And the potentials of the content of creation is infinite, imagine making distinctions in empty space. You can draw a line through space infinitely, entertaining various causes and effects, entertaining endless variety of creation. I that same way, the Buddha ha left him imprint on creation as "Buddha" ness. He is there to counter the illusion of the dream, so that the mind can become awakened to non other than itself! Hence you are the sole creator of your reality. To me, you don't exist but as an imprint of a characteristic. VH doesn't exist in my Awareness but only as a VH"ness". We are simply both projecting a similar taste of objective existence, known as the "human realm." Yes. And your answer to this is that it comes from predetermined causes and conditions. Everyone just flowing to the current. My answer is that it is I. And this I is everything of my Awareness. It is my Mind.

No, you are still making the distinction of the 12 links as something that is definite. It is not. To see dependent origination as absolute is to posit a cause and effect as an absolute law in an objective world outside of one's own awareness. In fact, it is made up within the mind. The mind habits itself to it and makes it a reality, hence cycling you and you notion of body again and again, not necessarily because you want to, but because it is the only thing it knows how to. I think GIH is somewhat right when he says that the doctrine taken to be the Truth can easily become a falsehood. The teaching are there to free the mind from illusions, not to create new ones.

There are no Bodhisattvas to set up anything. Their realization is due to causes and conditions. Suffering causes the conditions for Nirvana, and Nirvana helps those in Samsara. On and on and on. See, what is missing from this is the notion of free will. For there to be a choice, there also has to be one to make that choice. But upon investigation, there is no such thing as a "doer" or a "actor" in phenomena. So if every element in creation is dependently originated from pre-conditiong, including the Buddha and the Bodhisattvas and the criminals and the hell beings and what not, There is simply causes and conditions acting themselves out. Is that your view of reality? Yes, you can say that. But the Awareness I am talking about it not the empty luminous awareness. It is not Oneness or Twoness. It is an every fluctuating, creating, and evolving Awareness. It's nature is creation.

Ok there is no "me" to own anything. And perception of emptiness is also from causes and conditions. We are forever bound by it. Even Nirvana is bound by Samsara, because both are of causes and conditions. All dependently originated from one element to another. Yes? I have read through many of his writings. He is a very good teacher indeed. Where's Xabir?? .

No Dwai believes that there is one big existence of which we are a partial manifestation of. I'm saying there is nothing beyond one's own Mind.

I want to know the true nature of existence as far as my being can know it. I would like to know precisely how this game is played. . I don't care for attainments, I would like to know the Truth, the Dharma. Who cares about the jnanas, they are just tools to get you out of habitualized perception. They are there for you to question your view of reality. Because I realize that all distinctions, creations, perceptions are of the "I-ness." Of awareness and of its creation. Try as hard as you can to NOT-EXIST. HAHA, you can't. Keep telling yourself there is no you. That is just ridiculous, because if you succeed, you won't EXIST. Hence if there IS anything, it must be of awareness itself. It must be alive. Non-dual presence of emptiness is nothing but state of dead intent. Your are a "dead" awareness stuck to the rising and fallings of your mind's own creations. You sit there and go, "Ah, look at all these causes and conditions rise and fall, and my existence must also be empty!" Your attainment is that of total detachment, believing yourself to be simply "going along" with whatever happens. This is again, deadness. You will simply cycle through again by the laws of the causes and conditions you adhere to. By the way, I don't think this is what the Buddha meant. Then who are you? Are you causes and conditions acting itself out? And how do you perceive these causes and conditions? Isn't it totally subjective to your OWN judgment? And that in turn makes you believe and act accordingly to this perceived reality? This is why Karma is nothing but a concept made in the mind. The mind makes it, judges it, adheres to it, suffers from it.

Yes! Self-inquiry destroys everything. It is not so different from the tool of Dependent Origination. All identity is destroyed, all previously held notions of self are gone. In the end, you are left with I. And it continues on because you realize that you are. Why? Why are you, you? What is this awareness? Where is it? What is it? Where is it caused from? Who am I? .

Thing. Thing. Thing. Thing is seen through distinction, a singularity. There needs to be a subject and the imagined object for there to be a "Thing." So yes, in the relative view of this and that, they arise interdependently. Find your mind, see where it is, where is it located? It is no where. It does not arise. It does not cease. It simply is.

I don't see how anything I've said contradicts Nagarjuna here. Luminosity cannot arise from anything. That is like saying existence arises out of non-existence, which makes no sense because there non-existence means precisely that: NON-EXISTENT

Seeing dependence comes from seeing distinction. Cause is seen when this and that become established, and produces more perceptions of cause. All phenomena neither exists or does not exist. The actualization of being, of experience, only comes from the mind's formation of imaginary distinctions and relativity. Hence there are only ideas: only "humanness," "causeness," "worldness." The only thing that exists is existence.

So there are only objects? How is that not fatalism? Yes emptiness is to deepen the insight into the nature of the mind that grasps onto a form as real and separate. By seeing dependence of every distinguished aspect of phenomena, it's singularity is seen to be false. Nothing is beyond the mind. Luminosity is the very nature of the mind. Tell me how this is dependently originated? From what exactly?

I don't see how it is an interpretation. It is a logical inference. What am I not seeing here? "Oh it's just too subtle and complex"...hrm..I need a better explanation. Perhaps you are making it complex when simply, it doesn't make sense. Yes, according to you, things just happen without a doer, creator, will, or any driving force. I see no difference with this view and fatalistic nihilism and physicalist science. And please don't say something in the lines of "oh that is just extremism, so therefore it's not true." Whether it is extreme or not is totally subjective.

A beginingless cause to everything posts fatalism. Your View: The infinite causes and conditions have manifested in the form of a Bodhisattva and in the form of a criminal. In your view, no one is there to blame, because all our actions and manifestations have been caused by the conditions that have arisen beforehand. Relative inequality would mean that both the Bodhisattva and the criminal are only judged to be good and bad when you distinguish it to be so. And that distinction too is relatively originated. Simply causes and conditions, fragmentation of phenomena, working itself out. Don't you see that in order for salvation to be true, that there needs to be a source to a will?

You need to look into the meaning of "cause." . What does it mean for one thing to cause another? What I'm saying is beyond form and formless. Everything is already of the mind. Your View: So no one recognizes anything. There is no liberation to take place. There is no difference between Nirvana and Samsara. No enlightenment and no ignorance. No one to blame or praise. The rapist and the Bodhisattva are of equal status.

What is the mind dependent on in terms of its very existence? Annnndd, you still have not answered as to how one can become a Buddha when all becomings are due to causes and conditions.