Lucky7Strikes

Do you know a person who you have not met (not only physically). Wheres does this thing called "arm" begin and end? You have everything to do with how the tree is perceived. What you believe to be "tree" only exists as concepts attributed to a phenomena within the mind. That is like your hand trying to write a thesis paper. It can't. Not as long as it limits itself as a hand. And because you believe yourself to be of the body and the brain, material creations within the dream limited to the environment, you cannot do these things. Thus delusions and false clingings/knots must be let go of. Right. There can only BE I. The capital Self. It is not Brahma, God, Buddha or any of these things. It is right now in the ever non-dual experience. And this is only created according to your own intentions and thought processes rising from the illusionary act of distinction. The contents of the mind are only imprints of "treeness", "Marbleheadness" "Buddhaness," etc. The manifestations of the mind are actually, and truly, of infinite variety.

Yes, they share the same state of perception. You would not see the chair, but you will still feel the chair due to your perception of touch. When I close my eyes, the world exists without color. Sounds do not exist as sounds but wavelengths when you do not hear them but measure them accordingly. Yup, you've never not had a mind. You have always had it, because you ARE it. In fact, everything that is existent is of the mind, otherwise, how can you know that it exists? No that is the belief created from your identification of the analytical mind. You are trying to create something with a dead paint brush. You CAN do so, and that is why you believe you have a free will as a body, but really, the potentials of creation here is infinite once illusionary identity and habits are let go of. Imagine a person who thinks he is his hand. He believe he can only act as his hand and nothing else, and believes it to be the source of all his actions. Now he suffers very much because the hand has a very limited ability to create and choose what it would do. But on inquiring into the source of the hand's movement, he comes to know his brain. Whoa! Now he has so many tools to move, to live, to activate! . (A crude example I know). A whole new world opens up to him and the hand is no longer in conflict with the body. You can fly, only if you learn how to dream right. But you wouldn't really be flying, because you are simply making that reality come true. There is no movement here, only a perceptual deception. You think you move, because you believe you are controlling the body in a set environment. There is no set environment. All is the creation of the mind.

Yes, there were trees before humans, as in this body. But that is only what the mind believes. Where exactly does perception end and the the perciever begin? Can the world you see be separate from seeing? Can the sounds you hear be separate from hearing? Have you known the world without the mind? Moreover, if the objective and the subjective cannot be distinguished, what would you call a reality and a illusion?

Yes, everything is the Mind. Identity is thought construct when there is a dual perspective arising. Such as "I am the body" and "you are the other body." There is nothing to label, because you are already it, and you can only BE it. When in a dream, you marry, become wealthy, have children, grow old, but then suddenly wake up, can you say that the world in which you have lived in the dream is real? Or not real? Where did the characters in your dream come from? The thought that each mind-stream depends on others for survival is very tricky. My answer to that is that there are only imprints of other realities that take form in our own mind. I gave the example of a tree. The tree rises in your own mind because your mind has attained the ability to create it. Actually it is the only thing it knows how to create: a human entity living in a human world. The tree essence, its characteristics and such, exists. But no tree is found. Only the idea is entertained. No there is no Godhead. All there is is you, and I. The idea of a Godhead can be there, and that will be the reality you project as your mind transitions into a newer state of creation. I can't project my ego onto reality. Reality is my ego. I hold all the Buddhist methods to be valid. They are to deconstruct the illusion within the dream. So is Compassion, so is Selflessness. All this too is dreampt up by the mind in order to become Awake into a state of total potential and complete freedom. No longer chained by its own creations, the servant ceases to be the master.

Seeing things implies a change in perception. It comes about due to previous causes, no? Right, no one becomes enlightened, only enlightenment happens. No one does anything. That is all good. The main thing I'm concerned about is whether the Bodhisattva offers limitless compassion just as fire becomes ash. What difference, dare I say then, is there to the murder who raped the 4 year old and the Bodhisattva? One is simply the fire and the other is the ash.

And what provokes me to give besides what has been given to me as a response. You're saying that there is no one here to act out a will of its own except for the causes and conditions to play itself out.

It is I! . I, I, I! There is nothing but I. There can be nothing but I. It is everything, but NOT everyone. You and I are on a total different plane of existence altogether. Each is his/her universe creating and expanding. Everything is created through the self and is of the self. The Mind dreams. And where do the contents of the Mind come from? It comes from the Mind's choice to create through a medium called being "Human." And in this mode it absorbs the patterns and imprints of the human condition. The "me," Lucky, which you see in your perception is therefore not me but an impression of me reflected as an actualized possibility, a pattern. We are both at a distinct stage in a similar dream.

Right no one. I don't think I like that idea. And that is not my interpretation of the Heart Sutra anymore. To assert that there is no one to attain liberation means that there is only relativity acting itself out through the Law of the universe or whatever. That all volition, achievements, liberation, bondage happen through perchance. Luck. How is that different from the annihilation of self will of Advaita?

There is no cosmos beyond my mind. How can you know of existence without the experience? It doesn't matter whether the Mind exists on its own or not. It is existence itself. It is all there is. Every experience is already in a non-dual state. The content IS the Mind

No that is not what I'm saying. I'm asking who is there to attain liberation if all phenomena happens due to dependent rising relative to other creations.

This and that. What constitutes this as "this" and that as "that"? The distinction is made only by the Mind. Things don't arise due to other things. It only seems like that because your creative potential increases. Nothing exists inherently nor do they exist relatively. Relativity only exists when one makes the distinction of this and that. So when this becomes this apart from that, only does this and that become relative.

Where is this self you speak of, making its own actions, decisions, realizations? In your view of reality, there is no Buddha, no I, no choice, no salvation. All things are generated through causes and conditions, no? Acting through the one law of dependence? There is no Nirvana because there is no one to attain Nirvana. An experience you can label "Nirvana" can occur, but it is another part of existence acting itself out through conditions. All things lack inherence, but they exist. Do you deny your present experience? And they exist where there are no distinctions between cause and effect. So what can be said to cause another?

Yes, that all sounds good. And you will also say that the Buddha is dependently originated, caused, by the very same nature Samsara works by. That these things simply happen on and on. There is no Buddha to work hard. He is, according to the very same concept, an element within the ride of causes and conditions. I am primarily concerned here with the notion of the actor behind the proposed actions. Who is the one accumulating these merits? I do not adhere to the concept of Brahman. But I also do not see where causes begin and end, or what exactly defines a "condition." I see no cause, no time, no distinction. I'm not talking about meditative states. Or the 8th jnana, or the perception/non-perception state. I'm talking about this. This, right now. The creative content of the mind is "relative" only in the sense that it shares that characteristic with other minds. You and I can see a tree, but only the tree essence is shared. No tree is there to be seen, you and I, not "we" have simply created that being on a similar frequency of sorts. And it is created due to an evolved consciousness that sees more into the possibility of creation. There is ultimate existence. But not as a form or a static phenomena. It is existence as a verb, of the Mind creating, destroying, formulating, as it habits and desires deem it to do so.

I cannot ask Avalokiteshvra or Candrakirti directly. I wish I could. But my inquiry is very basic. According to your concept, the mind spimply works due to causes and conditions propelling itself to do so. Then how does one realize enlightenment except through pure chance? Was it simply destined to due so? I've realized that the concept of free will is very much avoided by most Buddhists I ask. Why? Because to exert free will means to find a source that generates that will. And upon investigation, that source cannot be found. So according the principle of causes and conditions, one's suffering and enlightenment are simply that which happens. There is only the flow of events. As for conditions, when one looks into where conditions are or how they are experienced, there will be no such thing as inside, outside, perciever, or percieved. That all things are experienced due to the conditioned state of our mind. But seeing into what drives this creation, I find nothing "in" my consciousness that drives it, that interacts with it. That truly, all phenomena is of the mind. It does not originate from anything for it is as beginingless and timeless as anything that can be said to exist. Do you know anything beyond the act of knowing? Do you see anything beyond the act of seeing? It is impossible.

Actually it does. I'm not speaking of the thinking mind within the brain. I'm talking about the non-dual mind of experience. If this mind does not inherently exist, there is no Nirvana. It is actually the only thing exists as far as I am concerned. Why? Because it Is existence. Yes I pay respect to the Buddha's world, for it is absolute perfection. But yes, I am reifying my own existence because it is the only thing that I am. It's nature is pure without causes and conditions. When you talk about Dependent Origination, I would like you to tell me what it means to be "caused." What does it mean to rise "from" something, or "due" to something? Where exactly does your mind begin and end? How about its contents? And by exactly what criteria do you judge the cause and the effect? Where do the five sense perceptions begin and end? Where is the mind?

Other beings exist in their own dimensions. They are beyond my own concept of existence or non-existence. My Mind does not originate from any other minds. Its contents may. It is the only true existence, as the only unchanging factor of existence, the act of "being"/creating itself. The Buddha's consciousness is the Dharma. His realm is reflected in everyone because it symbolizes the true Nature of the Mind. Yes, so I think we agree here. There is no outer world. It neither exists or does not exist, because you have created it in your Mind. There are only imprints and reflections of other mind systems. These do not belong to them, but rather, they are simply created phenomena of a possibility. Yes, there are infinite minds. Infinite possibilities. Infinite modes of Creation. But the distance between each mind is non-existent in the sense that there IS only one's own Mind.

Yes, I felt the same way. No-self, just things being manifest, "I" as simple fragments and parts. But then why do I feel as an existent entity??? Why do I feel alive? Why do I feel as if I can evolve, create, and do all these things? Where is the source, but the very experience itself? Time is a total construction of the Mind as well as Emptiness from causes and condition you hear all the time about. Try to find a point where in a cause turns into an effect. No where can that distinction be found but in the subjectivity of perception. HAHA! Yes, might as well be. . The Mind is basically this artist. And there are an infinite number of audiences who are affected by your art. ( , no I'm not a failed and starving painter). And you can "unlearn" to realize that you can paint anything. You are the sole Creator of reality!

There is no wheel is what I'm getting at. It is all in the Mind. All there ever was is the Mind. The wheel is created by the mind and destroyed by the mind. We are rather creating a reality that resonates with characteristic of creation manifested by "other beings." They are imprints left by actualized possibilities. Like the possibility of "tree" comes true in your mind because...well...it is possible. You have simply become accustomed to its creation in your own consciousness. Kind of like dreaming again and again. But due to the infinite number of consciousness beings and the variety of creation, it can be said that our ability to create is also infinite. It is therefore not realizing that you are the product of causes and conditions outside of you, but rather that everything you experience has come from your Mind's own illusion. It is created solely in your imagination with the limits of what it can imagine. In fact, there is no such thing as causes and conditions. Yes, compassion and offering merits is very crucial because it cuts off our delusional grasping of identity as a created and not the creator. The more we open up to the possibility through selflessness, the greater our ability to access higher creation comes. But again, all this is the "undoing" of delusion since your pure state is that of being "uncreated." Unborn, totally free to be and not be, free to materialize within the frequency of other living being and what not. Come and go as you please. Create and destroy as you please. Yet the Buddha or the totally enlightened is NOT virtuous in the sense that he feels the need to help others. He can, but that is not what the Buddha symbolizes. He IS the Truth. He IS the Dharma. He is unborn. He is uncreated. The Way of Virtue is the path of the Bodhisattva. The Bodhisattva offers endless merits on his path to undoing past habits of the mind. But the important part here is to realize that there is nothing but the mind. Others you see are simply your perceptions of their reflected selves. You can never truly "BE" with anyone as they are all conjured up in your mind. There is no one here but I.

Yes, yes exactly. Our distinctions only come when our intentions have made them so. There are no causes and conditions outside of the mind's own judgments.

I'm not sure what meditation has to do with what I wrote above. But thanks for the link! That is a lengthy thread!... I'll have to read through it... . And yes, suffering can be motivation. but my original inquiry was into the concept of "cause and conditions" and how time plays itself out and where our perception/distinctions are made.

Actually, I think you did create that tree. You could only create it with the only means you knew how to, as a form called a "tree." It doesn't even have to be a conscious creation, but habitual as well. You have simply painted the human realm, and there are trees in it! .

After much thought on the concept of D.O., the meaning of causes and conditions, I'm beginning to entertain these ideas. Please criticize. 1) The notion of cause and conditions comes from the act of distinction. What exactly is the cause in any perceived event? Wouldn't it not purely be of the mind's own distinction? And don't our actions and choices arise from such illusions? The boundary between cause and effect is non-existent except within the illusionary perception of the mind. Our perception creates our habits which in turn formulates our choices. All conditions, all phenomena is therefore said to be of the Mind. 2) When one looks to the source of this Mind--of all actions, of all acts of human cognition and reflection, one will find the sense of identity. This is the "I" thought. The grasping of a self. Most people believe this to be within the body as the brain, glands, energies, etc. But in the investigation of the location of the "I" ness, one finds that it is no where, that all rising phenomena within consciousness/experience is itself the "I." Fragmentation of experience is all of the mind's illusionary concepts of boundaries and distinctions. In reality, there is only the Mind. But due to the illusion of causes and conditions, people create their own Karmas and suffer through them. They create their own identities within the dream, as the body, and cycle through their own Perceptions. All phenomena is therefore said to be dreamlike. 3) Free will. If all things arise due to causes and conditions, or parts and fragments, why is it that there is a sense of free will? When I say free will, I am pointing towards the Creative urge. To create, do, evolve, be happy, move, etc. all point to this same arising movement of energy. The basic nature to Create comes from what exactly? More importantly, why does one want to Create? What exactly does it mean to Create something? After all, isn't everyone here because they feel that there is greater potential to their existence beyond the current body and mind? That they can make the apparent choice to transform themselves? To Create a newer reality? What exactly is this? To Create implies a Creator. One's identity, the center point, wherever it may be, is the source of Creation. One can only Create from that identity (For most people, it is through the body and the mind). When there are no causes and conditions, no locality of self, what is the source of Creation? It arises from one's very own Mind, Free Will, and Intent. All phenomena is experienced through the way one grasps onto an identity within one's own Creation. It is the dreamer clinging onto a dream identity, and suffering from the imagined "causes and conditions". He/she lives and dies in his own Mind and it's own rules. Our path is then to rid of the illusionary identity and to return to the state of an absolute Creator (Now, I don't want to say God, since that word carries so many connotations). It is the very essence of the Mind to Create, to Dream, and to revel in its own Creation. To be virtuous, playful, cling, liberate, or whatever action you imagine arise from no where except one's own Mind. There is no other, but "I." Heaven and Earth are "I," the Tao is the "I," "I" am both God and the Devil. This "I" ness, this Creative consciousness is "I." It is ever dynamic and it's abilities are infinite. Everything is created from My energy and creativity. In fact, Everything IS my energy and creativity. There is nothing within Creation that is not "I." (Please note this is very different from Advaitia's Brahma) 4) Then, obviously, who are "You"? I am not you and you are not me. You are a different "I," a whole different universal creation itself. I am only a part of your world as a reflective essence and that reflective essence is simply your own perception. For example, "you" cannot kill "me." It is impossible. The killing would only take place within your own delusion of a self conceived body killing another self-conceived body. The "I" you see is nothing but your own self, something in your own dream. But can you Create from nothing? Do you remember ever Creating "me" consciously? Most likely not. Here we run into the question on the meaning of Creation. Can anything truly be created originally out of nothing? No, it cannot. The artist cannot paint without a subject, the brush, and colors. He draws inspiration from his perception, and likewise, I can only Create through "other." And in this way, we are all "connected." I am in everyone and everyone is in me. The key word in the phrase is "in." The stress must be put on "one" in the word "everyone," because if we say "I am everything" the phrase can suppose an objective universe. This is not so, since everything is subjective. "I" am the Creator, and "you" are the paint, the paint brush, the paper, the mountains (Technically, the true Self is the process of creation. Again, you are your experience and your experience is determined by intent). The tools are as infinite as there are infinite number of beings and universes. Compassion is a means to attain the tools, and Wisdom is the road to Perfection. So when we cultivate, we are cultivating our Creation, not simply our bodies within an outside thing called the world. And this way, your light will be reflected in everyone. .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashi-Dorzho_Itigelov http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d...v_preserved.jpg

He clarified that statement by saying it was "no more learning" on earth. I'm guessing it means transforming the physical body's state as a "self," therefore beyond earth. Max has stated several times that he is still cultivating, that he too is still learning.