Sahaja

Yes, my understanding is that all our mind body layers are interconnected and influence each other in everything we do. The spiritual paths of addition take you through the various layers with lots of practices, physical, behavioral, energetic, mental, etc. along the way all the mind body’s layers change in a systematic interconnected fashion, including the physical body. The spiritual paths of subtraction approach it from the other end, removing/simplifying things often focusing on consciousness and mental processes. However, at some point all the layers change in the paths of subtraction as well. This is because we are whole beings with mind and body connected as a single unit. you are in all your mind body layers and are affected by them all ( until you are not). Without the mind body layers being transformed to be able to anchor the changes from the learnings on the path into it (whether on the path of addition or on the path of subtraction or some combination of the two ) , all one has are ephemeral experiences whose effects will fade. The human mind body complex design provides each of us the opportunity for spiritual growth but for most this requires change at many levels.

I think it is an excellent discipline to examine one’s practice to see if one can articulate what the cause is that they are practicing is and what the outcome is from the practice and what conditions need to be in place for the outcome to arise from the practice (the cause). I find that this brings insight & clarity to the practice that helps one focus their efforts on the cause and to let the effect naturally arise (or letting it naturally not arise).

My experience with the breath is a little different than the AI explanation. My understanding/experience is that once one is working with the subtle body (e.g. directly with qi), the breath disappears (you don’t perceive it). The breath is just worked with until the qi is there and then you let it go. Then you work with the qi. one eventually gets to a point where they don’t need to use the breath to get to the qi, they can just start with qi. I understand there is a similar step of going beyond qi in the practice.. as far as the one soul vs individual soul. My understanding is that in each of us there is something that contains the knowledge of everything. conflating outcomes with practices and trying to practice outcomes is a very common error. Practicing outcomes (either because of desire to take a shortcut or through misunderstanding) will rarely produce anything that’s helpful. Having a vision arise on its own of something during practice (outcome) is very different than consciously creating a vision of that something with your mind during practice (practicing an outcome).

Yellow court is utilized as the command center for expression of internal energy in Baguazhang. It sort of behaves like the lower Dan tian in its movements during bagua circle walking practice when you have enough qi. Certain mudras and hand positions stimulate it directly. Once activated it will open and close on its own energetically similar to what the lower Dan tian does in Dan tian breathing such that there is visible movement of the body associated with it. It’s feels a bit more fragile than the lower Dan tian and can cause some mild stomach distress if overworked. Lower Dan tian can too but it can absorb a lot more “attention” before it reaches this state. there is an interesting reference (reference to the court and the throne) to it in the oldest text I have found that talks about the lower Dan tian. It’s from the 2nd or 3rd century and it’s associated with meditations on the red child and body gods. Pretty clear precursor to alchemy.

I agree with both responses . Adding my two cents on the process of perceiving it. My understanding is that its nature is ziran. Attempts by the acquired mind to specifically make it arise likely work to negate it. What one can do (actually a form of not doing) is to release logical discursive thoughts so that they do not exclude it from our conscious perception. Going inside with bare attention (without the tension caused by goals, desires, agendas or logical expectations) provides an opportunity for one to perceive it as it naturally arises. I actually had a direct experience of this during a psychology class experiment at the university. It was a test of remote viewing - the class was put into a relaxed state through a guided meditation exercise and the viewer went out onto campus to “transmit” to the class. I remember having an image arise during the relaxed state but I quickly excluded it with the logical thought “I know this campus very well and there is nothing nearby like that”. The image was a spiral staircase which was what the remote viewer was looking at. My take away wasn’t a belief in remote viewing abilities (as who really knows what the causation chain was) but rather to be attentive/open to my perceptions and be careful about automatically heeding my logical discursive thoughts as they may be influenced by the interests of the ego/acquired mind.

Yes I think there are likely spiritual needles in the haystack of dreams (same in our waking world discursive thought) but it’s a tricky and painful process to sort through the hay when relying on someone/something that feels threatened by the needles (the acquired mind) to see them. there are perhaps other ways to differentiate the various spiritual paths that are useful such as the process of addition/process of subtraction or Ming/Xing. I prefer continuums to binary systems as they are more flexible and seem to be better at accommodating all the nuances that exist (or that people believe exist.) like anything continuums have their problems too as it’s difficult to find pure anchor points at the far edges.

My understanding is that dreams are similar to discursive thought related to the acquired mind. Focusing on them one runs the risk of getting stuck at that level. My understanding is that dreams end at some point on the spiritual path. i think methods that pursue and promote mental health are just that. Spiritual paths in my understanding are quite different. Improved mental health may be a byproduct but is not the goal of the spiritual path. However, the spiritual path may also (will likely) stress your mental health at some point, so it’s best to address health vulnerabilities prior to commencing your journey.

Seems like both have the potential for problems. Integration model risks focusing one on the acquired mind with an endless stream of rumination all reinforcing itself that doesn’t go anywhere because it continues to be from that perspective . The transcendent may bypass the vehicle we are in (the body) which has many interconnected layers influencing each other (physical, mental, emotional, energetic, causal etc ) that all participate in each activity you undertake. Bypassing these may take you somewhere that is irrelevant that you don’t want to be. I would describe both risks as taking/keeping you outside - either at the level of the acquired mind or at a void level (truly empty, nihilistic,negative). This void is different than “emptiness”. whichever route one takes it’s important to factor in these risks to your approach. I think the paths that take you inside approaching things with just attention can help with both risks. I think viewing it as an either/or choice of paths is likely a false choice.i think a better choice is acknowledging the risks of each and making adjustments as needed to your path.

Thanks. Gives me something to think about. the ding shi is the focus for me now as it seems quite strong. Direction seems relative to me, perhaps because I am not fixed. Though where I live is notorious for change. Earth and wood seem to be the strongest influences in me. From your comments I detect a bit of wood in you too…haha.

Sifu Laoxi (Christopher Matsuo) in addition to teaching the Kwan Yin Magnetic qi gong he teaches a Kwan Yin form. He also teaches stuff related to the forms discussed on the Flying Phoenix thread here on the forum including some different forms relying on breath percentages like flying Phoenix.

Was first exposed to Baguazhang and neigong about 47 years ago in the context of a broader martial arts training including the 18 weapons. . Left town for a job transferring around to a number of countries and did training on an on again off again basis over many years trying a number of teachers and bagua systems. what I found was almost exclusively focused on the external features of bagua. Given that it’s called an internal art I have always been curious about what makes it internal as I don’t think the just body shapes do, it’s something else. I am pretty sure one could practice the external shapes for many, many years and never practice it as an internal art. for past few years since I retired I have been practicing bagua in a more focused way along side tai chi and Xing yi and after so many years am starting to touch on what I would call the internal, primarily how Jin and qi works in these arts. Seems like tai chi is more open in what this means and how to approach it than what I can see of bagua practices. I have never heard or seen anyone really even refer to internal energetics of bagua in any meaningful way though when I look back at what my original teacher taught me I think he was on the track to get me there. i am not looking for secrets but just a framework (sort of like I wrote using qi and Jin to do the movements through release) about what makes it internal in your practice. I recall you mentioning the organ systems and I am familiar with how this model is used in the internal mechanic framework (elements/organs - wuxing) of Xing Yi and Tai chi (and Neidan) , but not bagua Zhang. Seems like there is more of a connection to Yi Jing in the bagua I have seen. I realize bagua may go very deep, as deep or deeper than tai chi well beyond my ability to comprehend but I don’t think this is solely based on which step you use or how to use the kua or the dang.

There is a term called mitahara in yoga that I think is applicable. It’s usually translated as the “controlled intake of healthy food”. The idea here is selectively eating both in amount, type and time. Generally amount is less than what fully fills you, the type is largely based on listening to your body but is assumed to be limiting certain types like sugars and meats, and time could be time of day or in relation to your practice. Now one could write books on the meaning of each of these and it’s not intended as a singular solution but as a guideline that is organic that to some degree you have to find on your own. Those involved with self cultivation often find that their ability to discern what is healthy for them increases with practice as they become more aware and sensitive. the way mitahara was taught to me it didn’t just include foods but rather applied to all the things consumed by your senses (watching tv, use of computers, attending events, really anything that stimulates the senses which includes sex). . The idea was to manage the intake to all of your senses in terms of quantity, type, and time. It meant being aware that all these activities carried consequences that you need to manage as an adult in terms of costs and benefits Controlled intake means conscious choice based on what is healthy for you as best as you can determine. It’s not repression but sometimes it might mean using your will to control your behavior. Using your will in moderate doses is healthy for you. The Daoists would say it’s good for your Jing to exercise this. It’s called discipline. Repression is moving the desires to the unconscious level and this can create serious psychological problems. Suppression means you are conscious of your desires but you are deciding that their cost to you exceeds their benefit. From both a yogic and Daoist perspective sex uses energy that might otherwise be used for other purposes, such as self cultivation. Sex also exposes one to others energy (at the physical, emotional and energetic levels) , which can be healthy or not depending on the relationship to your partner and your partner’s hygiene (at all levels). Even a computer screen carries some type of energy you are opening yourself energetically to with porn. So it’s important to make good decisions on it. the Daoists actually have guides based on age for how much sex is healthy/unhealthy but I think it’s a little more complicated than that but perhaps it’s a start. Ultimately it’s up to each individual as an adult to find the balance that works for them In these traditions thinking is viewed as one of the senses. This means mitahara applies to discursive thinking as well and that it has cost and benefits and should be managed like the other senses.

What about internal energetics? Anything you can share on this? Baguazhang is usually designated as an internal martial art. In my understanding this means the art doesn’t rely on conventional external body mechanics but rather harnesses the energetic body to move the physical body by using soong (release of tension) to mobilize the qi through the body’s soft tissues. In other words yi then qi then upper body movement, not yi then muscle contraction to move. For example I am learning a version of Cheng (Liu Jinru’s). In it I am attempting to do each arm and torso movement in this fairly twisty form by using release to initiate upper body movement not by conventional muscle contraction. It’s not easy but it’s pretty interesting when it works…it’s like the body is moving on its own and your job is to direct it with the shape and to keep from letting the energy uproot or twist you as it can be quite fast and strong . The way I have learned relies on the yellow court/middle Dan tian as the central point/director of the process. The release creates a lot of internal movement and stretching of tissue deep inside which provides the connectivity/strength behind the movement. Using release also means you can use it in grappling to compromise the opponents ability to apply conventional force on you when bridging (touching) similarly to what happens in tai chi push hands/rubbing hands. The term I’ve heard used to describe the analogous activity in bagua is rou shou or soft hands. The internal energetic engine of bagua is different than tai chi as are the applications to use it in grappling but soong/release purportedly has a similar effect on the opponent’s body in bagua as in tai chi. As Cheng style Baguazhang was developed by a master with wrestling skills it likely came in quite handy. Release also can be used to quickly propel strikes like the piercing palm.

Habit forming aspect of it burns through Jing as it can be very addictive. Can think of it like anything that has a strong attraction that has the potential to compromises one’s will (alcohol, drugs, greed, power, obsessions, etc) It’s not just because of the sexual part. Soon as it hooks you to look your will has been affected and you’re burning Jing. Then soon as sexual desire is stimulated more Jing is burned. Most of the damage is actually already done before climax is reached. Also sort of connects you karmically to what is happening to the people on the screen in terms of their potential abuse by their handlers.

For me I seem need to apply willpower initially to escape the “gravity” ofThe attachment to break the pattern . Once the effects of this gravity are reduced acceptance/emptiness works fine. I think going directly to emptiness for some people might not be realistic and perhaps result in an intellectual delusion. also another interpretation of returning to original may have a second meaning related to the alchemical process - stilling the Jing process as prep for alchemy. It’s about removing the stresses/attachments of everyday life so that one can go beyond normal functioning through cultivation of original Jing/qi etc. it’s not just breaking habits it’s about not being distracted or affected by the stimulus associated with them. In some cases this might require being away from modern society.