Sahaja

In qi gong when the body starts to fill and pressurize with qi the arms will often start to float up, this is pretty common. The instruction is to keep them down so that the pressure is directed inside to open things up and create space . If you allow them to float it is less efficient (and it’s also kind of weird for others to see, haha).. It is a funny experience to have, particularly the first time but you get used to it. My suggestion is smile or giggle a little so you don’t take things too seriously and then just keep practicing without giving it too much thought. It is just part of the process of change, don’t get too excited or attached to it as this will slow the change process.

I apologize if you’ve already heard this and tried it. Too much sugar is very often the cause of low grade inflammation . People that just dramatically reduce their sugar intake often have pretty profound positive health results. Though I use the word “just” it may be simple but it’s certainly not easy. Sugars are in many foods so it takes some effort to reduce its consumption. Given the ubiquity of this issue, you may want to start with reducing sugar (along with a generally balanced diet that includes more vegetables and some regular exercise) before getting into more specific solutions. May also help you avoid cancer and diabetes when you get older. from a Daoist perspective using your zhi (willpower) to reduce sugar (and exercise more) will be good for your Jing as well

Milestones for qi gong and tai chi are to some degree a function of teacher and approach but in the end basically they are about how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. For qi gong in particular the rabbit hole is quite deep, so deep one could indeed spend a long time training and not find the end. a lot of people stay pretty close to the entrance to the rabbit hole in their study of internal arts. They may practice these things at a more physical level, for example many people do tai chi without much in the way of focus on specific qi or Jin development. They practice it more like an external martial art using conventional body mechanics. However, they will still likely experience the health benefits of relaxation and improved range of motion. Similarly in qi gong they might choose to focus on breathing and movement forms that have some basic experience of chi at the nervous system level, usually in the hands or at skin level depth. Similarly they will likely experience relaxation and improved circulation/freedom of movement. Often some mental benefits of improved concentration are found at this level of practice as well. In contrast to this, those who choose to go deeper may elect to do an internal system that is based on the Yi Jin Jing tendon changing principles (principles not exercises)This is an approach where you use qi to change how your body and ultimately your mind operate to make them more efficient. This involves many hours of static stance and seated practice along with some movement based practices to open the body’s joints and channels, strengthen the nervous system and develop the mind’s attention capability while building, gathering and mobilizing qi. Rather than focusing on muscles and muscle contraction to build strength, it uses release of tension (hanging the flesh off the bones) to change tissue by stretching and stressing it with gravity not contraction. This leads to the building of new tissue inside that connects everything together in a different way and enables one to build more qi.. Initially in this approach one may experience zi fa gong (spontaneous movements ) as qi used for holding tension is released inside, starts to circulate and hits blockages. It may be like someone is touching you with a tense machine creating involuntary movements (it also can unleash other weirder stuff too) Later this calms down and evolves to a more magnetic experience of qi fields and internal connections between parts of the body that you wouldn’t typically understand to be associated. It also enables qi and Jin to flow under direction of the shape of your body and release of mental tension. This approach may also change the shape of the body as more qi building tissue forms between the muscles and bones. Having more qi also provides fuel for spiritual development which is further down the same rabbit hole. It’s a lot easier resting your attention on a meditation object when the qi is there providing an assist. There are many variations between these levels and certainly some that may go even deeper or use different means . Regardless of how deep you decide to go, doing internal arts at whatever level often require a different skill set than external arts. Internal arts require some level of change to how you practice as they are usually based on release of contraction (physical - muscle contraction and mental - strong intention)This is in many ways opposite of “normal” body behavior and development techniques that are based on muscle strength/contraction and leverage and having a strong mental intention. Conventional strength and health make you better at internal arts but initially the biggest challenge is to find/develop your strength in release of tension (not muscle contraction/leverage/bracing ) even when you are under pressure by someone or something. This different approach can be a big change that can take time to emerge. It may initially result in feeling like you are going backwards, getting weaker not stronger. However, this changes with time and practice. best wishes with your training.

Yes, my understanding is that all our mind body layers are interconnected and influence each other in everything we do. The spiritual paths of addition take you through the various layers with lots of practices, physical, behavioral, energetic, mental, etc. along the way all the mind body’s layers change in a systematic interconnected fashion, including the physical body. The spiritual paths of subtraction approach it from the other end, removing/simplifying things often focusing on consciousness and mental processes. However, at some point all the layers change in the paths of subtraction as well. This is because we are whole beings with mind and body connected as a single unit. you are in all your mind body layers and are affected by them all ( until you are not). Without the mind body layers being transformed to be able to anchor the changes from the learnings on the path into it (whether on the path of addition or on the path of subtraction or some combination of the two ) , all one has are ephemeral experiences whose effects will fade. The human mind body complex design provides each of us the opportunity for spiritual growth but for most this requires change at many levels.

I think it is an excellent discipline to examine one’s practice to see if one can articulate what the cause is that they are practicing is and what the outcome is from the practice and what conditions need to be in place for the outcome to arise from the practice (the cause). I find that this brings insight & clarity to the practice that helps one focus their efforts on the cause and to let the effect naturally arise (or letting it naturally not arise).

conflating outcomes with practices and trying to practice outcomes is a very common error. Practicing outcomes (either because of desire to take a shortcut or through misunderstanding) will rarely produce anything that’s helpful. Having a vision arise on its own of something during practice (outcome) is very different than consciously creating a vision of that something with your mind during practice (practicing an outcome).

I agree with both responses . Adding my two cents on the process of perceiving it. My understanding is that its nature is ziran. Attempts by the acquired mind to specifically make it arise likely work to negate it. What one can do (actually a form of not doing) is to release logical discursive thoughts so that they do not exclude it from our conscious perception. Going inside with bare attention (without the tension caused by goals, desires, agendas or logical expectations) provides an opportunity for one to perceive it as it naturally arises.

Yes I think there are likely spiritual needles in the haystack of dreams (same in our waking world discursive thought) but it’s a tricky and painful process to sort through the hay when relying on someone/something that feels threatened by the needles (the acquired mind) to see them. there are perhaps other ways to differentiate the various spiritual paths that are useful such as the process of addition/process of subtraction or Ming/Xing. I prefer continuums to binary systems as they are more flexible and seem to be better at accommodating all the nuances that exist (or that people believe exist.) like anything continuums have their problems too as it’s difficult to find pure anchor points at the far edges.

My understanding is that dreams are similar to discursive thought related to the acquired mind. Focusing on them one runs the risk of getting stuck at that level. My understanding is that dreams end at some point on the spiritual path. i think methods that pursue and promote mental health are just that. Spiritual paths in my understanding are quite different. Improved mental health may be a byproduct but is not the goal of the spiritual path. However, the spiritual path may also (will likely) stress your mental health at some point, so it’s best to address health vulnerabilities prior to commencing your journey.

Seems like both have the potential for problems. Integration model risks focusing one on the acquired mind with an endless stream of rumination all reinforcing itself that doesn’t go anywhere because it continues to be from that perspective . The transcendent may bypass the vehicle we are in (the body) which has many interconnected layers influencing each other (physical, mental, emotional, energetic, causal etc ) that all participate in each activity you undertake. Bypassing these may take you somewhere that is irrelevant that you don’t want to be. I would describe both risks as taking/keeping you outside - either at the level of the acquired mind or at a void level (truly empty, nihilistic,negative). This void is different than “emptiness”. whichever route one takes it’s important to factor in these risks to your approach. I think the paths that take you inside approaching things with just attention can help with both risks. I think viewing it as an either/or choice of paths is likely a false choice.i think a better choice is acknowledging the risks of each and making adjustments as needed to your path.

Thanks. Gives me something to think about. the ding shi is the focus for me now as it seems quite strong. Direction seems relative to me, perhaps because I am not fixed. Though where I live is notorious for change. Earth and wood seem to be the strongest influences in me. From your comments I detect a bit of wood in you too…haha.

Sifu Laoxi (Christopher Matsuo) in addition to teaching the Kwan Yin Magnetic qi gong he teaches a Kwan Yin form. He also teaches stuff related to the forms discussed on the Flying Phoenix thread here on the forum including some different forms relying on breath percentages like flying Phoenix.

i am not looking for secrets but just a framework (sort of like I wrote using qi and Jin to do the movements through release) about what makes it internal in your practice. I recall you mentioning the organ systems and I am familiar with how this model is used in the internal mechanic framework (elements/organs - wuxing) of Xing Yi and Tai chi (and Neidan) , but not bagua Zhang. Seems like there is more of a connection to Yi Jing in the bagua I have seen. I realize bagua may go very deep, as deep or deeper than tai chi well beyond my ability to comprehend but I don’t think this is solely based on which step you use or how to use the kua or the dang.

There is a term called mitahara in yoga that I think is applicable. It’s usually translated as the “controlled intake of healthy food”. The idea here is selectively eating both in amount, type and time. Generally amount is less than what fully fills you, the type is largely based on listening to your body but is assumed to be limiting certain types like sugars and meats, and time could be time of day or in relation to your practice. Now one could write books on the meaning of each of these and it’s not intended as a singular solution but as a guideline that is organic that to some degree you have to find on your own. Those involved with self cultivation often find that their ability to discern what is healthy for them increases with practice as they become more aware and sensitive. the way mitahara was taught to me it didn’t just include foods but rather applied to all the things consumed by your senses (watching tv, use of computers, attending events, really anything that stimulates the senses which includes sex). . The idea was to manage the intake to all of your senses in terms of quantity, type, and time. It meant being aware that all these activities carried consequences that you need to manage as an adult in terms of costs and benefits Controlled intake means conscious choice based on what is healthy for you as best as you can determine. It’s not repression but sometimes it might mean using your will to control your behavior. Using your will in moderate doses is healthy for you. The Daoists would say it’s good for your Jing to exercise this. It’s called discipline. Repression is moving the desires to the unconscious level and this can create serious psychological problems. Suppression means you are conscious of your desires but you are deciding that their cost to you exceeds their benefit. From both a yogic and Daoist perspective sex uses energy that might otherwise be used for other purposes, such as self cultivation. Sex also exposes one to others energy (at the physical, emotional and energetic levels) , which can be healthy or not depending on the relationship to your partner and your partner’s hygiene (at all levels). Even a computer screen carries some type of energy you are opening yourself energetically to with porn. So it’s important to make good decisions on it. the Daoists actually have guides based on age for how much sex is healthy/unhealthy but I think it’s a little more complicated than that but perhaps it’s a start. Ultimately it’s up to each individual as an adult to find the balance that works for them In these traditions thinking is viewed as one of the senses. This means mitahara applies to discursive thinking as well and that it has cost and benefits and should be managed like the other senses.