Sahaja

The most interesting part of this is what happens to the chi and the tissue inside the body (e.g. central channel) when you do this.

I would describe the yoga mantra origin slightly differently in the Tantric context - Tantric yoga would give a cosmological interpretation to sound as being at the source of the creation cycle with 4 levels of sound with the most gross part the verbal utterance and the most subtle being the seed of creation taking place before the thought of sound. The most well known of these sounds is the pranava which is generally known as Aum (but there are also a couple of pranavas in the tantric yoga tradition ). The energy of the mantras is associated with Shakti the creation principle and different mantras known as bija mantras are associated with different aspects of Shakti known as devatas (e.g. saraswati, etc.). These sounds are thought to also exist in the human body as represented on the petals of the chakras which correspond to different parts of the human body. In tantric yoga they have a practice of using these sounds in the body as part of their process of internal alchemy along with other mantras for related self cultivation practices such as khechari. Mantras are also used as pranams (obeisance prayers to start/end a practice) in tantric yoga. The use of sound in China for self cultivation from the best I can tell is a mixture of indigenous practices with Sanskrit bija mantras and dharanis brought by Buddhism. The Buddhist mantras were in turn influenced by Vedic mantras and perhaps by tantric yoga mantras. Since Daoism and Buddhism influenced each other greatly in China unwinding this mix is difficult. While some seem to originate in Sanskrit (nianfa practice of Amitfuo) others may have roots earlier than the arrival of Buddhism such as the six healing sounds associated with the 5 phase model. Not sure whether the tai chi breathing practice of using Heng Haah was indigenous or influenced by the Sanskrit practice (Hamsa/Soham). I believe there is a version of Hamsa used in self cultivation in some Chinese traditions. Perhaps someone else that knows more about this topic can comment. I imagine both the Vedic mantras that later morphed into the tantric yoga and Buddhist mantras and the indigenous Chinese sounds both started as ritual incantation practices tied to earlier religious and or shamanistic practices seeking power or giving thanks. I am sure I have vastly oversimplified this topic and also left out some important traditions, so my apologies.

I can say that for me doing 5 elements and 12 animal Xing Yi after doing Dan tian Gong and related chi gong/static stance work feels pretty cool. I can see and feel how the movements connect to this energy and I have only been doing this art for a relatively short time. For me this internal energy work enhances the experience of practicing Xing Yi and the Xing Yi provides a nice outlet for the energy from the chi gong. As a style it’s very direct and straight forward

Yes when the Lao gong point in your hand opens movements of the fingers or thumbs (even just the little finger) over your body can be used to physically move chi/flesh inside your body (e.g. Central channel area, middle or lower fields, etc.)It’s not a standalone micro chi gong but part of regular chi gong. I think it’s more about this opening and connecting than the particular movements or style of chi gong. I am pretty sure if Lao gong is open (and you have some internal connectivity through any type of body work that opens the tissues - martial arts, yoga, etc.) you could randomly pick chi gong exercises that move hands over the torso from YouTube and you would feel some level of chi movement inside your torso. I bumped into this phenomena initially doing yoga but didn’t understand the cause until I learned about chi gong that helped me “connect the dots” (actually both Ayurveda/marmas and TCM recognize this point in the hand but have different names/functionalities for it) now having said this find a good teacher (that understands the importance of opening laogong and yung quan ) that can give you some direction to your practice. Not much point in just seeking interesting phenomena without an objective whether it is for health or spiritual.

Thank you for sharing your views of the form based Jhanas and pointing to the agama sutras. I found this helpful. would you be willing to share your views on the meaning and utility of the formless Jhanas? (5 -8) I’ve read/heard different views on this topic and I am trying to improve my understanding. Thank you.

little” vs “big” vehicle, 25 tattvas vs 36 tattvas are two that come to mind

It’s interesting how there is also a history of “moving the goal posts” in the traditions themselves. Makes me chuckle at seeing a very human, fallible hand involved in this evolution and realize the importance of using the sweetness of humility to balance the bitterness of my certitudes.

I just completed my 1st year in a qi gong practice . While it’s certainly not 24/7, I often do feel increased energy and a pleasant buzz that I would attribute to the practice . My wife of 33 years describes the change in me as my heart being more open than it used to be. While some of this is related to things that started happening prior to commencing this practice, I still think it accelerated this trend and made a difference. When I started this practice I made a commitment to myself to do 20 minutes static standing practice and 30 minutes still sitting practice as a minimum each day. On top of this was yoga type practices that I had been doing for years to loosen things up and additional moving practices in qi gong and martial arts (as well as walking/hiking for general fitness) . Since I am retired I have the luxury of time though not the luxury of a younger, more supple body! I didn’t use a 100 day or 21 day rule. (My understanding is that the “100 day rule” is more about stilling the Jing in preparation for internal alchemy practices ) At the end of one year there were 3 milestones that I checked my progress against which when applied I could see change in myself. Two of the milestones were things that you can physically check. One was mental that was much more subjective but still measurable . I saw the most achievement on the most physical milestone and the one needing the most work was on the milestone that was primarily mental. I think what helps me feel progress and to keep trying is the experience of qi manifesting at the physical level (along with increasing the length of time to comfortably sit still and keeping awareness stable for longer periods without the mind wandering). At the physical level this means qi manifesting as contraction and movement of tissue deep inside the body during the practice to the point the effect can be seen by someone else. Getting to 20 minutes of standing correctly with all the focus points in place (and now longer) was pretty demanding both physically and mentally. While these energy movements aren’t the goal (the goal is a more efficient and healthy mind/body through using the practices) they make it easier to see the impact of the practice, reinforce practice of the underlying principles correctly, and still make me chuckle in disbelief when the movements actually physically arise. I sometimes wonder if that is what happens in everybody’s qi gong programs. While I know it’s not easy to keep a positive mindset over an extended timeframe, I think the practices can be worthwhile. If you can find a program that is intended to provide a physical, tangible manifestation of qi I think it helps with the reinforcement but even more importantly points to the possibility that it’s actually doing what it is supposed to do. If one is moving one’s arms and hands around in qi gong and it’s not accompanied by tangible energy movement deep inside the body after suitable time and effort or perhaps more importantly, if the people you are doing it with don’t exhibit qualities you aspire to then maybe it’s time to look for another teacher/program. Whatever program you choose if it’s too physically and mentally easy it likely isn’t going to help you change. I don’t think the magic is necessarily in the particular movements or style chosen but is rather in observing the correct underlying principles (like bones up/flesh down, release of tension, stable attention not intention, breathing with the lower abdomen , mental/physical discipline) and like Patanjali says in repeated practice with detachment.

An interesting issue using science to buttress our belief in and use of self cultivation practices. On the one hand using statistical methodology or scientific method (essentially using math) to see if we are really seeing underlying correlations or are in error/delusion can shed light and provide clarity to what’s really going on. I think we would benefit from more of this to help our discernment with the practices, particularly to apply accountability to those inappropriately using secrecy to hide their delusion or to gain personal power and money. In doing this it is important to understand the limitations of what the tools can tell us. Correlation is not necessarily causation and the appropriate use of these tools still require a strong theoretical basis that will by definition contain some subjective elements. There are even errors built into these methods that can take one down the wrong path from a scientific perspective if one is not very disciplined in drawing conclusions. On the other hand we can also be missing the point when we try to measure the unmeasurable using tools that are actually only a finite component of something infinitely larger. This can come across as apologetic rationalizations for what we choose to believe or what has arisen in us as direct knowledge that really miss the larger point. it reminds me of the practice I see in some 19th and 20th century writers who used parallels to Christianity to justify/rationalize Eastern philosophy and religion. Some things don’t need to be apologized for and the use of prevailing cultural norms or prevailing scientific views to justify them to me transmits a lack of discernment and conviction. Scientific method can help us be better cultivators if wisely used and can give us useful perspectives that can expand our capabilities. However, direct knowledge that naturally arises on the path can easily be prematurely dismissed by the rational logic of our own left brains or by prevailing cultural norms and scientific views . The tragedy of this is that it results in missed opportunities for us.

Practice above looks very similar to the hatha yoga practice of mahavedha (great piercing or penetration in Sanskrit) the way it was presented to me was much more gentle than practiced above with warnings about not doing it too aggressively. My understanding is that Mahavedha arose originally as a spontaneous movement that was then turned into a practice. I have a feeling this route (spontaneous to codified practice) was more common than we realize.

Sort of an interesting conundrum using a method that has a goal of generating something spontaneous when the definition of the word spontaneous includes “without external stimulus”. On the other hand, Zi fa gong that arises as an unintended by-product during a self cultivation practice that has a different goal is less contrived and more of a spontaneous nature. Less prone to attachment too when it’s not the immediate goal of the practice.

My personal understanding of it is a step in the change of one’s body mind in practice in response to Yang qi interacting with one’s unique mental and physical structure. To help complete the change you relax, ignore it and let the change take place. Eventually it resolves or changes to something else. If you attach to and/or get involved with it it it may keep repeating without the change taking place. Having said that ignoring the more dramatic versions maybe a little more challenging. A sense of humor about it helps. Treat it like it’s a 4 year old playing, give it space to play but set boundaries. Good news is that it’s your body and in most instances you can stop it if you choose to.

Suggest you choose a teacher and follow their program. If spontaneous movement arises then you can ask someone about how to respond to it and integrate the experience into your training. My understanding is that there is a wide range of possible manifestations of zi fa gong so having some feedback from an experienced person can help keep things in perspective. You may want to check for YouTube channels on the programs you initially mentioned and see what free stuff is there. May help in your choice..

Given the practices I saw on the murals from the Lukhang temple and historic connections between Tantric Saivism and Tantric Buddhism , I am thinking there may be a connection between the term and the vajra nadi as well.

I find the topic being explored by Baker in his other YouTube stuff quite fascinating - I’d describe it as the venn diagram overlap between Daoist , TibetanBon Yoga/Dzogchen and Hindu Tantric yoga. Not the sexual practices or fantastic powers (these feel a little offtrack/sensationalized to me) but just that there is something fundamental and very significant underneath these traditions that seems to be held in common irrespective of the different cultural/religious wrappings.

In some traditions I am familiar with, the path to the spiritual goes through all the body layers including the physical, energetic and mind whether it is a Jing - Qi-Shen - Wuji model in NeiDan or the bhairanga-antaranga yoga model in classical yoga or the Nath Hatha/Amanaska yoga model. I think one could even view some Tibetan systems as following a similar trajectory, certainly the Lukang mural pictures imply strong physical/ energetic components to their sadhana. My understanding of these systems that view the physical and energetic components as important view Sadhana on all the layers as wholistic. Their processes seem to be viewed as more operating on a continuum (e.g. Jing - qi -shen as the same substance just at different vibrational levels) than on a dualistic split between the mind and the body. Work on any level potentially has some knock on effect at all other levels or layers. Doing certain.asana or mudra not only potentially affects the physical but the subtler layers as well. Standing practice (e.g. zz) the same. The path followed leads through all the levels or layers through and even beyond the mind. The “juice” and the mental conditions/lessons generated from working at the physical and energetic levels are intended to support the work on the more subtle levels. Any potential negative or spiritually limiting effect of this “juice” is intended to be moderated through the behavioral components observed and the mental conditions generated by the practices themselves on their respective paths. They would generally say that bypassing the physical and energetic levels either limits the effectiveness at working the more subtle levels or might even make them unavailable if the needed mental & physical prerequisite conditions have not been achieved. They might also say that bypassing these lower levels could create a price to pay further down the path. alternatively there are Advaita type models that appear to bypass these layers altogether. Some of these paths appear to view work at these “lower” layers as an unnecessary to the process or even sending people in the wrong direction away from the spiritual. They may view that we are already “there” and the work focuses on just realizing this. Other paths may view work at the the physical/energetic levels as optional , depending on the spiritual maturity of the individual and grace of the guru. Still other paths seem to focus on the mind as the key component on the path to spiritual development but still see some applicability of the physical and energetic layers (they include use of physical and energetic practices like walking, sensation or breath focused practices) while I am not saying all these paths lead to exactly the same place (I agree that they are definitely not all apples), nor that those that have important physical and energetic components are the same as each other nor that one path is better than another. I am in no position to judge or critique or give guidance to anyone on their choice of path as I am just a beginner. Rather the point I am trying to make is that if we look closer we may find that many of those paths with important physical and energetic components do appear to be intended to lead toward spiritual growth and attainment however defined. They also generally have behavioral guidelines/practices that are important on their respective paths intended to regulate any negative or counter productive outcomes associated with physical and energetic practices.

Shandor Remete is an initiate of the Kanphata Nath Sampradaya out of the Goraknath Temple in Katmandu who has some online courses and some affiliated teachers in NA. While not a south Asian Siddhar Nath tradition, his tradition, like what Dwai mentions, features a focus on a few key asanas (e.g. mulabandasana, candasana, etc.). Not limited to asana it also focuses on the more esoteric elements of yoga like laya and nada as well as the Nrtta. while I am not aware of any linkage between Shandor and the Siddhar tradition, interestingly in my own readings I’ve found reference to a number of things Shandor emphasizes in an important classic medieval Siddhar text called the Tirumantiram by Siddhar Thirumoolar (one of the 18 Siddhars) These include what Thirumoolar calls Chandra Yoga, the Chidambaram dance and khechari mudra. So there appears to have been a connection between North and South at some point. Shandor just published a new book that’s available on Amazon called Taranyali Tridha Dhyanam; The Threefold Meditations of the Thunder Dragon that describes one path that he teaches in a fairly descriptive way. It has a history of the Naths, description of the subtle body anatomy, the specific steps of the practice as well some details on some practices I have not seen in other yoga books such as the seven levels of shambavi mudra. The path leads to Amanaska yoga which is also known as the yoga beyond the mind. Shandor’s book may be a good place to start to see if his path resonates with you.

In support of your point, I think the basis for this whole discussion on visualization is really more globally about reducing intentionality in practice to allow the fruits to naturally arise. This is my understanding of what these two people (at least DM) are talking about. This doesn’t mean no intentionality but means dialing it back as close to zero as possible without losing the connection to the practice. This allows the fruit to naturally manifest, in their approach, initially as very physical phenomena/manifestation which leads overtime to the possibility of changing more deeper layers and ultimately in a spiritual direction (with Grace) I think this approach is influenced by the concepts of wuwei (non intentional action) and ziran (naturally arising) but could also be related or have a connection in some ways to the concepts of vairagya (non attachment) and abhyasa (practice) in other traditions, at least in my understanding of them. Discussion of efficacy of chosen practice or tradition quickly devolves to a focus on results (whether physical or behavioral) and whose result is more impressive. Ultimately this focus (whether it’s on a simple physical contraction of the lower abdomen caused by just opening your hands or it’s something much more dramatic like disappearing in a rainbow body ) can result in these things becoming further distant if we reflect on the meaning of wuwei or vairagya and their foundational nature to these traditions. having said that I really appreciate freeform’s sharing as it’s very interesting and inspirational to me personally. Thank you freeform!

In reference to the comments in this thread on the Tibetan Lhukang murals. Had a chance to see an exposition of them at the RubinAsian art museum in New York with my family. Very impressive and highly recommended. Many of the images looked quite familiar to me from a yoga practice perspective, not only well known yoga practices but there were also a few that reminded me of some less commonly known South Asian cultivation practices like the tandava, at least one of the 108 karanas and some other related practices. I was aware that there were historical connections between Central and South Asian self cultivation traditions but seeing it in original artwork somehow made it more real for me.

Though I am a novice on the path, based on my readings, practice and exposure to teachers in multiple self cultivation traditions, here are my subjective experiences/conclusions that I hope are relevant to the discussion topic. As a general rule I think the more the mind is involved in self cultivation practice in the sense of expectations and strategies/intents the more of a barrier there is to overcome to experience its fruits. using listening/passive awareness makes the life force energy move for me and I am pretty sure I have seen it in others as well - not ephemerally but physical, bodily movement for me listening seems to quiet the mind or it could be that to listen one needs to quiet the mind - regardless it’s importance has been emphasized to me by multiple teachers from different traditions seems that visualization means different things to different people - some people use it to describe or anticipate a feeling/sensation, for others it means creating a visual picture in the mind - I think the two usages are different in application I believe visualization (visual picture in the mind) is a useful tool in certain instances in training the mind (example sports performance) I have not had much luck using it in my own development practices - could be I have a limited capability in this area or it could be that visualizing a picture in the mind requires more intention than just listening. a number of traditions seem to have “methods” at some level that are essentially without intent (ie that are naturally arising after some preliminary work) - generally they seem to be viewed as more advanced than ones using strategies, efforts and intents, these same traditions also have many methods using strategies and intention my experience to date is that with methods using intent, the intent is more for priming the pump and the fruits arise when you start to back off the intent - less is usually more - there can also be a price to pay for imposition on the body/mind of intent (mea culpa on that) I have seen intent filled methods associated with multiple traditions that appear to be based on reverse engineering of naturally arising cultivation fruits - not sure whether this is a good idea or a bad idea but I think it’s a good question to ask my understanding of the usage of the term “meditation” from multiple traditions/teachers is as a naturally arising outcome based on precursor efforts and conditions - more of a happening and less of a doing teachers across traditions I have had generally regard behavioral, physical and energetic work as key parts of these precursor efforts and conditions. i spent my whole professional career doing a job that was essentially to help manage the desired and the undesired behavior in people in a large scale corporate setting in many different countries - so my advice - trust but verify - and expect some surprises One doesn’t have to like the teacher or agree all the time particularly on things outside the practice, there can still be benefits from the relationship particularly if one uses discernment for all the talk of the importance of lineage , the initiated teachers I have had all seem to have some experience outside their lineage that seems useful I am just sharing my experience based on where I am. I am sure others have different experiences that are equally true to them and are likely more advanced than me. Given that change is inevitable i am sure my experience will too as I change. My hope is that by sharing my experience that someone might benefit in some small way. I’d also like to thank others who I have learned from on this site through their postings.

This dialogue has made me curious whether Dao Bums can be accessed online in China (without an VPN).

new book describing a full system of meditation (bhavatita dhyana) by a Kanphata Nath Yogin. Covers the steps/tools required in a fairly specific way. Also provides some historical context on the Nath yogins - It’s available on Amazon. Taraṇyali Tridhā Dhyānam: The Threefold Meditations of the Thunder Dragon

There are lots of similar concepts & practices in traditional hatha yoga and the internal martial arts/ neigong/neidan (eg. Amrita, breathwork, mantras, mudras, stance work, channel opening, moving beyond the acquired mind, spontaneous movements, etc) But also some fundamental differences exist in their overall processes - for example khecari mudra’s central importance in traditional hatha yoga is apparently absent in the East Asian internal arts. I imagine their relationship is very complex - sharing much in both directions at different times (perhaps a little more South Asia to East Asia than the other way), but also differentiated by unique indigenous elements responding to separate and distinct cultural, philosophical and religious influences. Similarities also likely evolved naturally with out sharing because they both were trying to accomplish a similar thing - self cultivation of the human being. I think there is also a similar thread of both being influenced in the 19th and 20th centuries by colonialism and the indigenous reaction to modern science and associated negative view of “superstitions” that tended to dilute the expression of the more esoteric elements of both traditions. This trend continues to this day through the popularity of officially sanctioned wushu and modern postural yoga. there has been some good work done on comparing one important aspect of these arts - the marma/nadi system underlying traditional hatha yoga to the meridian/point system underlying the East Asian internal arts - by Vasant Lad and by Frank Ros. In their publications they have visually and descriptively compared marma points to acupuncture points providing a useful and interesting framework for comparison. They have also brought to light lesser known Ayurvedic needling practices that are similar to the more well known TCM acupuncture practices. The similarities in the maps of these points are striking but differences exist as well. I imagine similar comparisons could be made of other analogous tools and processes used in each tradition.

An online resource with a lot of info about Non Dual Saivism. - also about the Sanskrit language which plays an important role in it https://www.sanskrit-trikashaivism.com/en/english-home/100

My two cents on this - don’t know if this is how it works for others so caveat emptor I would say this one is found through practice more than in a book. More a somatic experience than an intellectual one. More from listening to the chi sink than visualizing or conceptualizing a center of gravity. I think it’s more readily found when you are not looking for it. Once you do make that connection it becomes more readily apparent.