Sahaja

here are some proto Daoist passages talking about Ming and Xing (first two sentences may describe a seated practice) Left, right, front, and back, (running) full circle, they return to the place (at the center). Holding to a ceremonious outward appearance ( 執儀服 象 ), respectfully welcome that which approaches ( 敬迎來 者 ). Those today who seek its approach require this method to (invite) Dao Without soaring (into the sky), without spilling over, the destined life-force (ming) will be extended. Harmonize by returning to the center, where both body and pure nature (xing) are preserved. Be unified and without (doubt or) division. This is called “knowing Dao.” Wishing to be enveloped by it, you must unify to the furthest extent, and solidify that which is within And Desiring to take care of myself, I must first know my true inner state, and become acquainted with the universe by examining within myself. In this way, one can know the image, thereby knowing the tendencies of their true inner state. Knowing the tendencies of their true inner state, they will know how to nourish life. from the Bai Xin (purifying the heartmind) from Guanzi (250 to 46BCE) from thread of the Dao

Yes there is a famous Saiva scholar who said - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Given what happened in 213BC (and again later) we have been given a great opportunity to exercise our abilities to develop creative plausible theories balanced with common sense. The likely reason we even have these tomb texts to study today is because Emperor Qin apparently didn’t think to check closed tombs for more books to burn.

I believe the issue of Xing vs Ming existed in the proto Daoist world of Zhuangzi, Huainanzi and Guan zi before the common age, well before Buddhism’s arrival in China. It’s specifically articulated in the Zhuangzi contrasting zuowang with Daoyin/Fangshi practices. Certainly emptiness was a key part of the view of the proto Daoists and that wu Wei and Zi ran are in many ways relevant to the concept of discovering one’s true nature. This was more than 1000 years earlier than the Song period of the writing you mention. While the neidan texts go quite deep (well beyond my limited understanding), I think the point you have identified is a common one where traditions meet and in the spiritual market place they compete both absorbing terms/practices from each other and evolving to make themselves more distinct from one another. I think you are pointing out something similar here which appears to me to be both as the response of Daoism to Chan(to absorb a part of it) and in combining it with Ming practices making itself distinct. hard for me to understand how one could say a process (Neidan) taking one back to unity to source is just nourishing the life and fortifying the body. It’s also hard for me to believe he didn’t understand the much earlier proto Daoist writings/practices that went well beyond just fortifying the body. So I am left with this more prosaic view of accommodation and distinction.

My apologies. Didn’t mean to make you feel I was singling you out as there are many who have contributed to this thread and that are on this site that use the term kundalini much more liberally than I.

I’ve heard yogi’s describe what goes into raising kundalini and it’s sounds like an incredible amount of work and time (10 +years of difficult twice+ daily practices like khecari and shakti chalini after many years perfecting very difficult asana like candasana, mulabandasana, bagasana, etc) Same with Neidan or even Bodhidharma’s method (9 years at the wall after a lot of pre work) Cave processes in Tibet sound pretty long and difficult as well. I also have experienced how relatively easy it is to centralize the energy and move up the central channel to the top of the head in a pretty physical and dramatic way and a little beyond (without using visualization or imagination). I surmise the gulf between these experiences is quite vast whereas the description might not sound so different. Always makes me circumspect when I hear terms like kundalini awakening. I believe there are many steps along the path where one’s concept of self and perception of reality is significantly challenged but these high end states are extremely rare and likely are accompanied by quite significant siddhis that are evident in shared reality.

I am not sure one can completely avoid or control delusion. However, cultivation paths using body based (tantric) methods would say that any experienced phenomena should either have a cause or co-arises with a correlate that is evident in the physical body/physical shared reality. If there is not it’s a good chance delusion has arisen. It’s not a guarantee but it’s a good starting filter to apply. Markers are also used, but these can be problematic for those markers that rely on self reporting and are known by the student ahead of time. I think this filter of physicality applies at all levels on the path. Though talking about full enlightenment is way beyond my pay grade, I believe there is something called the “thirty two major and 80 minor marks “ that fits this definition even at that august level. So next time someone tells you they’re fully enlightened, you can say “show me the marks ! “ On a personal level, if I start to be impressed by experiences and phenomena I tell my self - good job, you are now at level 3 of 10,000 - only 9997 levels to go (and the scale is logarithmic)

Actually I was doing google translate to see if yi could be used for both intention and awareness to see if I could use the phrase yi leads the qi which is quite well known without the word intention. It came back with yi shi for awareness and yi for intention (so my plan was thwarted). My understanding is that the yang version of intention (with the acquired mind/your ego/personality tagging along for the ride) is not what you want leading the qi. The yin version of relaxed awareness or bare attention soaked into the tissues intermingling and reacting with the qi is what I was trying to describe. Dwai’s description is also good, awareness holding the space. The qi then moves on its own into the space (with added force if you also release tension in the space - it can literally knock you off balance) Haven’t tried sending the monkey mind (yi) in the opposite direction, but it sounds intriguing though it may be beyond my meager abilities to do both at once.

Its my understanding that it’s yi shi (awareness) rather than yi (intention) that is the key to the neigong process. Intention is more yang and carries a form of mental tension (goals, desires etc) that limits the circulation/expansion of the qi. Awareness is more passive/receptive (yin) and when fully absorbed inside the body it receives and mixes with the qi deep inside. When this mixing happens combined with release of residual tension, the awareness catalyzes the qi and creates movement/expansion of tissue opening your body up from the inside out with physical pressure. Can be quite intense. The Neigong process is intended to change your body at the physical and the energetic levels and it’s many hours of hard challenging work. Stillness undoubtedly builds qi inside but you still need to do the work to physically change the interstitial tissues, tendons, nerves, and open the channels (e.g. through the static work hanging the flesh off the bones while releasing tension with receptive awareness catalyzing the qi, etc) to be able to gather, mobilize, distribute and use it.

I think both the translation and commentary can introduce a spin. Reading it directly without attention to an informed commentary can also introduce spin, typically due to a lack of one’s own understanding of the context. This is particularly true when the word choice is limited by the use of rhyme or meter. This can be a real challenge in understanding both old Daoist and old Hindu texts. My own approach is to read both and try to integrate it with my own direct experience and with what I have learned from my teachers. What I find most rewarding is when I find something in the text that appears related to these direct experiences that aren’t picked up in the commentary. this can also be frustrating. Lately I have enjoyed reading Harold Roth’s writings on the other Daoist and Daoistic texts written before the common age. I really like the central emphasis he places on inner cultivation as the common thread across these texts. However every time I read him or one of his students use the term “breath meditation” I want to send him a note that when they said qi they likely really meant qi. The breath is only the training wheels. In my direct experience in seated practice once the qi arises the breath becomes invisible, even the Dan tian can keep working without being tied to the breath. Oh well, the rest of his stuff is great.

My understanding is that most of the actual qi we work with inside us in qi gong is produced inside ourselves at the basic or intermediate level. . However practice outdoors does have special benefits that are gained from the interaction of our qi with qi fields in nature, often can be quite mentally refreshing or calming. There are even specific qi gongs that are designed to enhance this interaction. Can also get some of these benefits from having the senses fully open and listening closely just when walking slowly in nature.

From a internal martial arts perspective I am talking primarily about static stance work - wuji, Taiyi, Zhang Zhuang ,Santishi , daishi , other static positions some with various hand mudras or body shapes, etc. this work is static on the outside but on the inside there is movement and changes in physical and energetic structure take place that support internal skill development and build capacity/build qi. There can also be other work as well like seated work or breath work or moving qi gong or work on opening certain body areas but the static stance work is the most common. Each style or lineage have developed or adopted those supplemental practices they feel are most important for their specific art or their specific approach to their specific art. there is also the neigong process that is not specifically attached to any particular internal martial arts style that prepares one for spiritual work/nei Dan/meditative work or medical work but also can provide a foundation for internal martial arts. it is more in depth, more comprehensive because it focuses only on internal development rather than having as it’s focus the teaching of a martial art form and applications as well. Unfortunately I am probably making this sound more organized and standardized than it is in real life but hopefully have made it a little clearer.

Pursuing internal skill only through practice of the external, physical form can indeed take a very long time - if at all. That’s why many martial arts systems have their own unique process of neigong to supplement their forms that is in addition to and separate from the form. They may not even use that term but that’s what these supplemental practices are for. These practices build the capability and the external forms are used to mobilize and express the energy. Unfortunately some people don’t know this and just practice the external physical movement forms thinking that something more will arise. In my opinion this is the real misconception.

Here is an example of how internal skill (nei gong) is applied in Baguazhang (one of the 3 main internal martial arts) to develop the body through moving the qi using the eight directions. The qi is not just a concept or a metaphor for physical activity like breathing… it’s an actual internal pressure that can be quite strongly felt that fills the area of the body in the direction it is being sent. Filling and emptying have a literal meaning that can be distinctly felt. In order to do this basic body method one needs to have done a lot of pre-work (opening laogong, building qi, absorbing the awareness into the body, etc.) using qi gong or a neigong process. Once one learns to apply this internal skill in each palm posture then one learns to apply it in the form sets and applications.

Here is a video about qi rising to the head and to the chest that might be useful to you. Doesn’t directly address the heart chakra opening but might be useful to rule other simpler possibilities out.. There are actually three videos on the topic of qi but given your comments this may be a place to start.

Sorry to hear of your struggles. We all experience emotional and physical difficulties and psychological ups and downs on the path, no one is immune to this. . However, when it starts to interfere with your health, your relationships or daily life in the form of pain or depression or dissociation from shared reality it’s time to seek some professional help and curtail/end self cultivation activities, at least temporarily. from a Daoist model of self cultivation many of the practices you have described having done or are considering can free up yang qi in the body that naturally rises towards the head. This can result in many of the symptoms you describe. A disturbance of shen could also be involved particularly if the heart center has opened prematurely. While there are practices to ground this energy as well as to develop the subtle body to manage any excess , once the energy gets out of control exceeding your capabilities to absorb and manage it, it can be very difficult to rein it back in on your own without help. So I suggest ending all practices for the time being and seeking in person help. Once you've worked with someone to get things sorted out and feel back in control you can resume your practices slowly assuming this is what you want to do. My understanding is that self cultivation practices are not advised for people experiencing emotional or mental difficulties as they can act to add more fuel to the fire which is not helpful if you are already struggling. To tread on the challenging path of cultivation you really need to be in good health and well grounded as a starting point as it’s not an easy road as your experience shows. sorry if I sound kind of extreme but it’s from my heart. Best wishes to you.

Probably the term qi is one of those terms that should remain untranslated, as its basis unique to its cultural source. The early Chinese philosophers viewed qi as the fundamental force/building block of the universe that from a cosmological perspective preceding the division into yin and Yang, heaven/earth/humans and the 10000 things. It was viewed as being every where and in all things in some way. So it shouldn’t be surprising at all the designations for qi reflecting its different attributes and all the confusion that can be created because of this. Adding to this confusion are differences in language and world view based on time and place. In my understanding, from a self cultivation perspective it will manifest differently depending what layer you are working at. What manifests at the physical layer is different than at the energetic layer which in turn is different than the deeper layers (mental, causal, etc.) this in turn affects our experience of it. At the level of the physical we might experience it as movement of the breath while at the energetic (e.g. qi gong or internal martial arts) we might experience it as electrical or magnetic or pneumatic pressure deep inside and so on with each layer being experienced in its in its own way. In fact the progression through these layers back to the source in self cultivation is predicated on moving away from both the experience and definition of it at the preceding level, though the manifestation at the preceding level can be used as a tool to bridge to the next layer. since science generally operates at the physical layer it’s difficult to rely on them for a definitive view of qi as it transcends the physical. However, for those uncomfortable not having a scientific basis for their views there is the concept and term dark energy. It is accepted by science as the force driving the expansion of the universe at a rate faster than is expected based on known measurable factors and is calculated to make up 68% of the universe’s total mass. Though scientists accept its existence they have been unable to measure it or even directly observe it and haven’t been able to define what it actually is. At best they say it seems like a kind of pressure without a known source. Sounds a like qi to me.

Some great comments in this thread. I have an old friend that has just entered hospice this week and these suggestions are very timely for me. Thank you for sharing Sorry about your loss “don’t know much”. My wife of 35 years ongoing health issues have made me reflect on this possibility. Not sure how I would cope with it. From what I believe I think you interpreted your experience on the couch of her smiling and saying goodbye correctly. I hope the memory of this experience brings you peace. .

Sorry don’t have a video. However I think it’s in a text from a different tradition - something like - let it keep running until it’s done

Given they have not yet been able to directly observe or measure dark matter or dark energy which theoretically makes up 95% of all the matter and energy in the universe (or even agree on what it is and whether it even exists), I think it will take them some time to get around to dealing with qi. Of course then they will have to also deal with shen and the list goes on from there! in the meantime I am more than happy to use these terms as heuristics because they are both useful and meaningful in cultivation and reflect my own and others experience quite well.

Interesting analogy. However mine seems to have had a bump stock added as it will just keep shooting the arrows without reloading.

It’s sad that you have spent many years practicing these arts and yet not have a direct experience of qi. It actually comes from deep inside of you and it is not subtle when it shows itself. Took me a long time and a lot of work to find it. Hope that one day you find yours. I think you’ll find it quite interesting.

My understanding of waigong (external skill)is using the bodies muscle contractive force and hinge joints together to create energy and movement. It is how we normally interact with the environment though it can be trained to be quite strong. My understanding of Neigong (internal skill) is learning to generate and transmit energy and movement through the soft tissues of the body generally using release rather than contraction. It is not how we naturally interact with the environment and requires work to develop. This skill can be developed generically (building the yin field in the lower abdomen, opening the tissue and joints, building channel capability particularly the extraordinary ones, building and learning to mobilize vital energy, learning to stabilize awareness and turn off some of the body’s natural reactions to application of physical force/stress, building the internal transmission capability -the internal wet suit, opening specific points and connecting them, etc.) and then applied in individual martial arts based on that art’s philosophy and strategy. This same internal skill can also be brought to bear to support work in the healing arts or in spiritual development.

My understanding is that focusing on the sensations on the skin is much less effective than having your awareness listening deep inside of your body observing and influencing the qi and Jin movements there.

Stone hard perineum sounds painful. Hope it’s not catchy.

My advice is different. There are arts that view the mingmen as an area and use it to connect upper and lower among other things. Acupuncture points are for acupuncture but often the area in the vicinity of the point has similar functionality and is easier to use in the related self cultivation arts (e.g. laogong, yung quan, etc). This functionality can be lost when the points for acupuncture are overemphasized to the exclusion of the areas surrounding them as happens with the proliferation of acupuncture charts. It’s often works better to use an area rather than a point and is less prone to over focus which can impede song (release) . Ayurveda marma points do a better job of integrating their medical functionality with the South Asian cultivation practices (martial arts and yoga)than acupuncture points as they are defined as both the point and the area. Marma point maps look quite similar to acupuncture maps (e.g. hrt in the palm connected to the heart vs laogong in the palm) though there are distinct differences as well. While I don’t advocate mixing systems in cultivation, I do think a familiarity does give perspective and context.