Sahaja

The way I have learned this is to not use the muscles on the outside in reverse breathing (similar to Trunk’s original posting, I think). Shouldn’t see or feel much engagement of the outer muscles if you put your hand on your abdomen when using this technique. Should just feel the inside tissues opening/relaxing on the out breath and closing from all directions towards a central point on the in breath. This takes a good deal of practice but once you get it interesting things start to happen, particularly on the out breath. However one needs to start by just getting comfortable with the breathing low in the body before trying the more fancy reverse breathing stuff. After reverse breathing is well in place comes dan tian breathing (dt opening and closing on its own).

Does Jing really transform/change directly into qi or is it a bit more complicated than that? Seems unhealthy to reduce your amount of Jing that this implies, even for such a good cause as more qi.

When the chi is ready to move into this circulation, it will move on its own. Pressure builds up and can be felt triggering the movement. It’s not subtle and it manifests very distinctly at the physical level deep in the body. The body knows what to do. No mind intent required. just “listen” and appreciate how amazing the natural intelligence of the body can be. .

My understanding of it is that wu Wei means non governance. The authors believed that if humans try to govern things (control things through application of their goals, desires, intentions) they by definition eventually screw them up. While this can be seen as a response to the history/politics of the time, it is most fundamentally applicable to cultivation practice at the level of the individual. The key is to let go of this governance during one’s practice. the tools of attention without intention, ting/listening (receptive awareness without the coloring of discursive thought), and song (release of physical and mental tension) are used. Governance and tension are closely related. Intention can be viewed as being in tension. Release of tension frees up energy. When this is done natural processes arise that are aligned with the thing/non-thing that is behind all phenomena. On an experiential level the more governance (and tension) is reduced the more qi arises. . initially (and likely for a long time) this is not a binary situation but rather a scale of how much governance is applied. The skill and qi developed in practice becomes available outside the practice resulting in better efficiency and alignment with the thing/non-thing behind all phenomena. .

Hmm. I thought they hid the real stuff from the annoying students by giving them visualization exercises to do instead.

I think you are referring to song (release/letting go)which is one of the three main tools of the daoist internal arts. Pertains to releasing both physical and mental tension that is found and released through use of the two other tools -ting - listening/receptive awareness and attention - awareness without intention. Intention (goals, plans, desires, imagination, etc) is a form of mental tension. These three tools are related to the concept and importance of wu wei - non governance in the Daoist arts. The kwa is a yin energy field area of the body (co-located with the inguinal crease) which is used in certain internal martial arts to move the body in lieu of using the outer hip region which should remain without tension (song’’d). It allows for energy to flow up from the feet into the torso and arms through the soft tissues. Once the yin field is developed in the kwa it also enables movement without conventional external movement. I think these concepts are used by multiple lineages, though certainly with each having their own nuances.

Perhaps there are redeeming characteristics of religions when practiced at the individual level but unfortunately when people collectively create religious organizational beliefs and structure it at some point brings out the worst in us collectively. I used to think the Eastern religions were better than the Abrahamic religions in this regard but recent history in Asia has shown me that there may be something more systematic at work intrinsic to organized religion in general. Perhaps it’s nationalism disguised as religion(or vice versa), or maybe it’s more a fundamental flaw in us that gets magnified when we act collectively rationalizing self serving behaviors on beliefs beyond ourselves. sorry if I sound a bit negative but just read an article about the popes executioner that didn’t sit well with me.

If I recall correctly there is an action that should be taken if the wrong image is seen in the mirror. seeing images in a mirror that you didn’t intend to see seems a bit spooky to me. Forewarned is forearmed.

Do you do the mirror practice with it?

I think it would be more accurate and interesting to identify sentences briefly describing the practices and tools used under each term to allow people to identify for themselves where there may be similarities. In trying to reduce it to a one word equivalence it loses a lot/gets oversimplified and in some cases there is more not in common than in common in the practices equated. (e.g. pranayama and qi gong).

Left brain, right brain, whole brain…the whole brain is the right brain…not sure if that’s a double meaning for “right” but regardless - it’s cool stuff!

One way of looking at this is that qi is the fluid of the mind that connects the mind with the body. So I would say the work you do is an acupuncturist is working on the body to influence the mind in the sense of the mind’s involvement in using qi (its fluid) to regulate processes in the body.. My understanding of some Daoist approaches is that you are really working both simultaneously. Listening (ting - attention or mental presence without the intellect) and sung (relaxation - release of physical and mental contractions) involve both the mind and the body. In the early stages of qi gong it’s about learning to connect with the qi through listening/attention to use it deep inside to create physical bodily changes (“tendon changing”). These physical changes later enable changes in the mind to arise (part of “marrow washing”). Ultimately development of attention(ting) skills to a very high level (and related mindbody changes) allow you to move beyond identification with the limited self and things talked about like samadhi, sympathetic joy (joy without a cause) naturally arise. Initially on this path you develop mental focus to stabilize awareness then you dial back the intention inherent in mental focus to bring you toward purer attention (purer means not goal directed, not full of discursive thought- just listening, just receiving without adding thoughts). Once you have this skill at a very basic level you can connect directly with the qi in your body to affect and effect change (e.g. form Dan tian, etc.) These bodily changes in turn change the mind and back again in an iterative supportive fashion. Working with the qi to change the body has the added benefit of having a physical manifestation that can be seen and felt (by yourself and others) to help avoid potential for delusion of mind based approaches that don’t early on have such an observable manifestation in our shared physical reality. It’s my understanding that each of these separate paths (mind path, body path) has a different outcome with different characteristics, though if truly done correctly the achievement of one ultimately achieves the other so both fruits are obtained. However, done incorrectly or partially can result in errors like delusion/depression (stuck in the void) or energy sickness (mania). The Daoist approaches I am familiar with are based on the view that the mind and body are not two separate things but one made up of many layers (very similar to other Eastern traditions) What you do at one level or layer affects all the other layers. Philosophically wu wei (non governance, lack of intention) and Yin Yang, (balancing between the two aspects of cultivation) are integral to this path.

Thanks. I kind of wondered why I don’t experience heat from this stuff.

A part of it is your body producing the immortal medicine. However, it’s not really at the level of a practice. My understanding is it’s more of an outcome to transformations that change how practices work and who you are. It does have a physical component to it related to the bodies organ systems. I would say it’s not only part of certain alchemy lineages but is also referenced in certain old tantric yoga systems as well. we tend to approach things simply as practices as that’s the way the intellect works. However it’s much more subtle and nuanced than that and way more difficult or so I’m told. Not something that arises from a few practices or reading a few books. Probably requires substantial time in retreat from society, changes to the acquired mind and some feedback from others further along the path. I sometimes wonder if people really think through what it means to go beyond the acquired mind, if they really want to go through that much change to who they think they are. Though I don’t think you need to find a Taoist immortal to learn about it just as you don’t need access to a Buddha to learn about Buddhist cultivation methods or a Yogic immortal to learn about yogic methods. Though I imagine it might help, haha.

Only a Xian can teach ? Wow, thats quite a steep hurdle. Does this mean only winners of Wimbledon can teach one anything about tennis? The tennis lessons must be quite expensive.

About 18 years ago visited a temple in rural Myanmar with my family that had ceremonies led by what appeared to us as transgender “priest/priestess” mediums. Dance and music were a big part of the ceremony. The local people attending (the vast majority in attendance) appeared to treat the mediums with a great deal of seriousness and respect. In our personal interactions with the mediums they were very open, light hearted/quick to laugh, and were kind to us offering to pray for our daughters’ then upcoming school exams.

to work with opening the ren, one may want to explore releasing/relaxing tension from the Tian Tu point in the upper chest as I understand this is a common sticking or blocking point for many people. This relates to the instruction “sinking the chest” which per my understanding means releasing/relaxing of tension vertically down inside the body from that point.

Curious whether there is any impact or change at the chromosomal level to transition. - xx to xy or xy to xx. I realize there is a small percentage of the population don’t fit into these general chromosomal categories.

I think an important part of it is moving from intention (conscious, subconscious and unconscious) to pure attention (without desires, goals, discursive thought) to states beyond this. There are conditions and methods that facilitate this. Imagination is a form of intention or discursive thought so it’s not a tool for this practice in my understanding. While there is likely similarity between apothetic methods across traditions as many deal with moving beyond the acquired mind to a unitive state, I think it’s better to keep them separate in application so one doesn’t miss important nuances unique to each tradition.

I enjoy reading the academic works on Daoist apophetic methods such as by Harold Roth, Stephen Eskildsen , Louis Komjecky and others. I would say that my view is somewhat different on the translations of the Chinese terms into the English terms like “breath” and “visualization”. Visualization (cun or cunxiang) maybe alternatively translated as paying attention to and see what actually arises as opposed to imagining something. This translation is more in alignment with the Daoist concept of wu wei or non doing particularly in the context of sitting and forgetting. Qi is not just the breath in my understanding, it is much more.

Maybe some wood qi gong would help with moderating excessive judgement. The five elements model of cultivation includes the path of balancing the emotions (at the initial level). there is a difference between our natural tendency to categorize things and the ego driven need to compare. It’s important to understand the difference. Both arise from being a limited self, but the first is useful for our survival as a physical entity the latter is more about the reinforcement/survival of the ego.

Perhaps the probability of attaining enlightenment is near zero when we have an intent to achieve it. Perhaps the probability of reaching enlightenment is near zero when we don’t have something/someone outside of ourselves pointing out when our intent to achieve it arises. Perhaps the probability of reaching enlightenment is near zero when we don’t have a useful method to help us reach our potential. Perhaps the probability of reaching enlightenment is near zero when we believe the chosen method and helper is more important than the qualities inherent in the first statement. as much as it can be depressing to see so many people searching and not finding, the existence of the energy driving this search to me is quite a hopeful sign as it seems stronger and more resilient than both logic and intent.

It can also be translated as skill from the self. Meaning it’s something from inside that’s not at the conscious level. It’s usually associated with active or yang qi getting freed up in a practice like releasing tension that hits a blockage in one’s body which results in involuntary movements, involuntary speech or sounds, shaking, involuntary prostrations etc. it can be innocuous or it can be quite dramatic but it’s really only the body opening up under the influence of active qi. Some “masters” get this initiated in their students and describe it as something magical or demonic taking advantage of its unusual involuntary nature to influence students to follow them However in more serious lineages they treat it as more mundane, more like passing gas, that the teacher politely ignores. If you are doing qi gong with the mind absorbed deeply inside there is a good chance something like this will arise. Sometimes it can be triggered by something very simple, like a doing a hand mudra. It’s just a phase that will pass so it’s best to let it do its thing (open you up more) and not to get too attached to it. Of course there is always a next phase, lol.

My understanding of texts is they describe what had arisen at the end state, not the process to get there which comes from the teacher and from direct experience. The process is not binary and starts by charting out the route and is filled differently(yang qi, yin qi, light, the Dan etc.) at different stages of the process. Even at the earliest stages this is an unimposed non manufactured process that is quite strong somatically but effort is necessary to put the conditions where it can arise in place.Ultimately it even goes outside the physical body interacting with the yin fields around you. Actually I should not say ultimately, as I don’t really know how many levels there are (the “10, 000” levels back to the one maybe the way to describe it) The most important point is that it is a spiritual process anchored in a physical process based on moving beyond/releasing these contractions and colorings of the acquired bodymind. (Very analogous to yoga and Buddhist cultivation methods )The “doing” are these contractions and colorings of the bodymind - non doing or non governance is moving away from these intentions/contractions to pure attention uncolored by the acquired mind and then beyond this. When the tai chi masters talk about song and ting they are describing using these tools in a more prosaic way but in many ways it seems quite similar. Even at a beginners level one can feel the qi strongly respond to the “releasing” of both physical and mental contractions if one is “listening’”. When authors take an end state and reverse engineer it into a process to follow based on imagination or visualization of the end state, they are just encouraging more contraction of the mind and actually impeding the process as they are directing the use of energies toward more doing rather than the un doing of these physical and mental contractions which is the effort required. It may sound contradictory but letting go of the contractions takes work particularly when the ego and the physical body don’t want you to release the contractions. The ego in many ways defines itself through these contractions. It probably feels quite threatened when stuff arises it’s not directly controlling! i enjoy reading the texts and appreciate the work of philologists, academics and translators. When I read things like “supreme yin” in the really old texts I can see the connection to very important aspects of the process and it’s helpful to see that. I am grateful for the light they shed and they are doing something I clearly don’t have the skills for. They have done much good work that should be acknowledged. However I think errors can be made when outcomes are conflated with processes. ok Taoist texts - have at me! Perhaps it will help me release my own contractions to get some humility. I undoubtedly have a lot more to learn. (Only 10,000 more levels to go)

My understanding is that it arises when the correct conditions are in place. When it starts moving it’s pretty clear what is going on and that you are not directly governing it with your intention at that point.