Sahaja

I see in my FB feed that Max is teaching “kunlun” again - this week in San Jose. These days it seems like most any qi gong can produce zi fa gong.

My understanding is similar to silent thunders. The subtle anatomy and associated practices of alchemy has some marked differences from TCM though there are similarities. While I haven’t ingested alchemical herbs I know people who have and their effects can be quite strong. I guess it’s analogous to qi gong. You can practice qi gong at the level of health (more like TCM) or you can use qi gong to change the body(s) to support a spiritual practice. The latter is a lot more intense(much more than just waving your hands around). In terms of channels, some of the names might be similar (like the du) but size might dramatically change (become the width of your back or more) in alchemical applications of practice. I’ve found TCM herbs helpful from a medical perspective in my martial arts practices but my understanding is that it’s not the same thing. Because of common use of terms (and propensity for secrecy) a lot of confusion is created between TCM and alchemical/spiritual based approaches.

My first wife was born in the year of the green dragon. Our marriage was a bit of a disaster but like the dragon she regenerated and made a career out of the disaster(wrote her autobiography, TV shows, Oprah, etc.). Kind of a rough ride for me at the time but now just ironic and humorous looking at it from a distance through the rear view mirror. Perhaps the point here is that as we face the dragon this year knowing that time will help put its challenges into perspective changing them into lessons ( that might even make us laugh at some point!).

My understanding is when one has moved from intentional based thought into absorption in awareness, dreams stop. Dreams are another version of intentional thought based in the acquired mind/limited self, albeit at the subconscious or unconscious levels of intention.

While more qi does enable many things, I think a very important element isthe ability to soak the awareness into the body which enables one to both perceive and use qi more accurately as well as make more qi. I remember when I was young studying martial arts there was a lot of qi generated but my ability to internally connect with it and direct it was quite limited, more of an external application. Now more recently my practices have opened up the internal world much more through absorption of the awareness in the body (and applying the Yi Jin Jing principles) I think Freeform used to refer to the power of the absorption of awareness into the body in some of his posts and it certainly has been my experience. I think this changes one’s practice whether one is doing qi gong or martial arts or yoga. Perhaps someday this will evolve from absorption of awareness in the body to the body absorbed into awareness - this is where the game changes dramatically or so I’m told and takes one beyond regular qi to original qi. My understanding is that this requires releasing all intention, conscious or otherwise. Not an easy thing to do.

I am not a scientist but I believe tides are a function of the size of the body of water. Lakes don’t have meaningful tides because they are too small to notice the effect - I think the biggest lakes (e.g. Great Lakes) have measurable ones but they are only a couple of centimeters and are dwarfed when compared with effects of the wind. In both the Nath lineage of yoga and some Daoist internal arts there are charts showing the relationship between the phases of the moon and energy in the body. Interesting both have a relationship between the top of the head and full moon. Direction of the energy movement from point to point during waxing and waning and many of the points are in common. Naths utilize this knowledge in their yoga practice. There are also some practices that utilize this knowledge in Daoist internal arts (e.g. full moon practice).

Yes it’s ironic that people write off things to hypnosis or placebo effect or say things like mind over matter without thinking about the causation chain behind these terms. If they did this they might realize something more amazing is happening then what they think they are dismissing.

Sounds like you answered your own question in comparing it to that which makes you feel refreshed and clears the mind. It’s important to listen to your body’s wisdom about what is working for you and what isn’t. While the body isn’t always right, it generally won’t lie to you. The acquired mind however, is another story. the only thing I would add is that another source is what family, friends, and acquaintances (or doctors) say about changes in you (or lack there of). It’s usually a good idea to get a second opinion!

While I don’t follow this path, I believe that it contains complete paths for those who are able to complete them. However I think that it is extremely difficult to reach enlightenment on any path if that is the definition you are using. I use paths as there are many variations in approaches and methods that fit under the broad umbrella term Buddhism (some of which I think would have left the historical Buddha scratching his head!) I believe that there are equally valid paths outside this umbrella. One needs to find that which fits them to have a chance for “success” or reach “completion” on any path. I think this personal fit is as important as the perceived intrinsic validity of any specific path. From an early age when I was first exposed to Buddhism there was something in it that didn’t resonate with me. However it does with others and that is wonderful. Clearly it has excellent methods for working with the mind and the jhanic states that all paths could benefit from. as far as Jung is concerned, while I think he promulgated some unique interesting views and showed openness to non Western concepts, I think the stuff he said about westerners not being able to follow these non western paths was absolute nonsense and to me reflects the darkness of his time and place.

Often trauma that has an emotional component is stored as xie qi in the body and it gets released in the practice. If you are lucky a brief reoccurrence of the emotion is triggered and then passes quickly particularly if you listen (ting) to it and then release (song) it. If you find yourself attaching to this emotion better to get up and do something else to distract the mind away from the attachment returning to the practice when the emotion has passed. While “spiritual bypassing” can be a thing, my experience is that it’s much more common for the acquired limited I self to grab a hold of the emotional experience and keep reliving it as a way to reinforce itself. To achieve stillness one needs to move beyond this identification, not easy as the I has many ways to pull you back. There is something called turning around the light in neidan that deals with this topic and involves the 5 phases/elements unifying their lights into one light. This does involve balancing the emotions associated with the elements including anger/wood/liver etc. in general practices add energy to whatever is preexisting in the body and mind. People being treated medically for clinical psychological issues should be very careful in doing any practices for this reason.

Yep. Watch a toddler try to walk. Looks like their center is at the Dan tian. Moves up to the chest in most people as they mature.

In South Asian medicine and self cultivation they have a subtle body system with 13 main nadis and 108 marma points with the nadis originating from a point just below the naval called the kanda. The maps of these are in many cases very similar to the East Asian subtle body maps. (e.g. hrt marma and laogong point in the palms quite similar in location, kanda similar to lower Dan tien). The knowledge of the marma points was developed in martial arts for treatment of injuries sustained in battle. Each point has a description of what happens when the point is injured, what system is affected and how to treat it (or if it is fatal!). while the subtle body maps look similar in South Asian systems to East Asian systems, in the South Asian tantric yoga systems the nadis are also known for conducting sound and the interaction between mudras (hand and body positions) and mantras are an important part of their yogic sadhana. This includes Nyasa Vidham which when used in cultivation is essentially a practice to become aware of the natural sounds residing in specific areas of the body represented by the sounds of the letters of the Sanskrit alphabet. These sounds constitute tools for extracting and gathering power from different parts of the body through the subtle currents, the chakras and the central nadi which is also known as the pathway of sound. south Asian systems also include a practice of acupuncture based on their own subtle body maps, but it’s not as widespread or as common as it is in East Asian medicine.

My understanding is that in some Daoist lineages for biological males abstinence is only recommended at a certain time(s) in the development process as part of a much bigger process to still the Jing involving lots of things that are stimulating, limiting stress being one of the biggest. The rest of the time the guidance is just be mindful of not too much with the definition of too much (as it uses lots of energy) getting lower as you age with some variance from person to person. Much more important in cultivation is to not use or abuse others for the purpose of self gratification. My understanding in yoga is there are certain mudras used that enable the use of the energy behind or the precursor to the sex drive (not sex or sex stimulation itself) to help trigger the energy up the central channel. I think what has happened is people take a little bit of information combined with limited understanding and turn it into something more exciting (using sex for cultivation) which I believe is an error for most people. Attachment to sex and power is one of the biggest challenges in cultivation, particularly for biological males (XY). However sex is also just part of the natural world, part of life, so we need to relate to it that way - not too puritanically, not too hedonistically, but thoughtfully and openly.

This one has a lot of energy to it for some reason, not just here on this forum. . I think many people get confused by it - grounding vs leaking. I think it is a thing in some Daoist traditions to avoid leaking yang qi that they have built up and mobilized through their practice by insulating themselves during practice by wearing shoes/standing on a mat or sitting on mats/pillows (and no grounding wires attached to the perineum. -haha!). However it’s also a very important daily practice and probably more of an immediate concern in these same traditions to ground the energy down away from the head that has been mobilized at the end of each practice session. Also there are processes designed to connect directly with di qi (the earth’s yin energy) as part of the development process usually via the yong quan point in the foot that are very important. Sinking and release are also extremely critical to the practice and there are even specialized practices for connecting with nature like ping heng gong or connecting with trees like shu Liao fa. I personally spend a lot more time and energy on sinking, grounding, releasing and connecting than on worrying about insulating during practice though I try to follow the guidance, particularly for long practice sessions. I am just sharing some background on this topic from one tradition’s viewpoint not that it is the right or the only view. Suggest you follow your own tradition/teacher/experience on this.

The other day I was doing a seated practice in the park and a gentleman in his 80s, originally from Hong Kong it turns out, randomly approached me and told me to insulate myself from the ground (bring a mat to sit on) or I will lose my yang qi. He seemed genuinely concerned for me. This is the same view in the tradition I follow (I guess I was getting a friendly reminder!) Practicing near willow trees is supposed to be good for the digestion and to calm the mind. Different types of trees are supposed to connect with different organ systems in the body. It’s the yin magnetic field of the earth that interacts with the electrically charged yang qi in the body that is supposed to create the grounding. There are some practices that take advantage of this effect, like doing prostrations, that can have benefits. So I think the topic has some complexity to it. I do now wear shoes when I practice outside out of respect for the teachings.

It’s interesting how we use science to give us a sense of control of the world. However from a Daoist perspective this attempt at control or governance limits our ability to perceive and understand what’s really going on. When you song (release) and ting (listen) you are essentially circumventing this control the limited self imposes to try to reinforce or protect itself. It can be quite amazing what arises when you do this. Qi goes from being a faint sensation on the skin of the hands to the visceral equivalent of a punch in the nose. i am not anti scientific method as I think it’s very useful but it can get in the way in self cultivation if it’s being used to reinforce or protect the limited self. on fascia I think they may be close. My understanding it’s the huang that has a crucial role with qi production and connectivity throughout the body. Though I am not sure it explains how one can release (song) and move Jin inside the body from a point outside the body. I think this brings in some discussion of energetic fields that extend out from us. this perspective arose from observations of some common behaviors in myself and others, particularly beginners, when confronted with seemingly strange physical phenomena in the practice. It’s not meant as a criticism, more of an acknowledgement.

My understanding is that at different points of the development process, what gets circulated in the orbit changes and the sensation may also change.

Actually the process of subtle yoga described in chapter 7 of the Netra Tantra describes a process of centralizing this energy , raising it, piercing the chakras and the practitioner being taken beyond the mind to a state of unity with Siva. It was likely written in the mid 8th century. The Tantrasadbhava Tantra, an 8th to 9th century text, references the kundalini energy where it describes it as a sleeping serpent in the belly. This text has a number of elements that are shared with Buddhist tantric texts - seems like sharing went both ways.

I like Jnanadeva or Jnanashwara the 13th century Marathi poet. He has two main works, one a commentary on the Bhadavad Gita (on religion) and one his own view of spirituality he wrote for his guru called Amritanubhava. https://ia800303.us.archive.org/27/items/Sri.Jnandevas.Bhvartha.Dipika-Jnaneswari/Sri.Jnandevas.Bhvartha.Dipika-Jnaneswari_text.pdf https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.4625/page/n61/mode/2up

Wow. I don’t know if I am qualified at my level to answer these questions, let alone have them make sense relative to one of the Buddhist models. at its most basic its an embodied approach focused on developing the body and the mind using the body’s underlying energetic matrix to prepare for a variety of undertakings including spiritual development, TCM practice, internal martial arts or just basic physical and mental health. This embodied approach is similar to that used in some yoga lineages and esoteric Buddhist approaches, including sharing some common tools and approaches at the beginners level. It’s predicated on the view that to work at the spiritual level (go beyond the limited self or acquired mind) one needs to have a very efficient, very healthy mind and body to support and successfully navigate the practices at these advanced levels. Time and effort is invested at the front end to avoid both mental and physical health problems as well as glass ceilings on development arising down the road. To make sense of the process and nomenclature one needs first to have some familiarity with Daoist cosmology, philosophy and their views of the mind/body. A book I’d recommend for this is A comprehensive Guide to Daoist Neigong by Damo Mitchell. Once you are familiar with this material more advanced texts on Internal Alchemy/Neidan, including Jing to qi, qi to shen etc. model, will make more sense. In this guide the basics of neigong are covered (what, why and how) along with information on more advanced neidan processes (the what and the why). This text also addresses some of the specific concerns raised by Maddie and John Doe in this thread including details on specific qi deviation syndromes and how to treat them at the basic level (what points and what herbs). The what and why of stillness related practices , such as nei guan, Xin hai, and Zuo Wang are also covered. It also describes the Daoist levels of spiritual development and terminology that relate to the more commonly familiar terms of awakening, enlightenment and to the rainbow body. In addition it covers the alchemical processes of the 5 phases or elements that refer to reversing the light an aspect of which deals with the emotions along with the various macro/micro orbits and their respective levels of which there are a number, some of which are quite advanced. the Dan tians and their usage is also covered..the guide also includes info on Daoist precepts that are important to the practice. Also the important Daoist concepts of spontaneity and non governance are covered along with their central role in navigating practice including the difference between using attention as opposed to intention in working with the energetic matrix. This also frames how to approach practices like the orbits, letting them naturally arise rather than be mind driven. I think there are free pdf copies of the guide on the internet if you are so inclined. There are a number of approaches that can be taken with neigong & internal alchemy and this is just one of them Also as I say a lot of this is way beyond my level. However the pieces I am directly familiar with have been both surprising and enjoyable to practice. Hope you find this helpful.

I think secrecy is more straightforward, they say this is not for you to share. they teach you in private and tell you to practice in private/not to share without permission. While there are things like Xin Yin (mind seal) , bai shi (lineage inductions) and associated concepts such as magical knowledge, I think the key to learning from a traditional Daoist perspective is really humility. In the old Daoist texts humility was defined as a space or hole in the heart that creates room for knowledge to enter. If there is true humility creating space, great wisdom will enter, sometimes in ways that are hard to understand. While false humility is common, true humility is not easy nor common. A large percentage of people going through a neigong process have some kind of issue stored in their bodies they have to face and release as part of their process. A lot of the time this comes out as zi fa gong (spontaneous actions ). Some of this stuff is pretty strange (not just shaking) but it eventually passes if the person does not attach to it and doesn’t make it into something bigger than it needs to be. Working through it actual has some benefit.

Here is what was in Scripture of the Immaculate Numen - 4th century CE Daoist text on the Dan tians. . Lord of the Great Dao] Most High announces: The upper cinnabar field is between your two eyebrows. The middle cinnabar field is in the Crimson Palace, or the heart. The lower cinnabar field is three cun beneath your navel. Altogether there are three cinnabar fields. The Ruddy Infant resides in the palace within your upper cinnabar field, the Perfected Being resides in the palace within your middle cinnabar field, and the Newborn resides within the palace of your lower cinnabar field. In between and slightly higher than your eyebrows is the Bright Hall; it is one cun underneath [the skin] Ge Hong also 4th century CE in his Scripture on Heaven, Earth and Humans talks about dantian (with some slight locational differences) in reference to meditating on the one. At times, it is located two cun and four fen beneath the navel in the lower cinnabar field. Other times, it is below the heart in the Golden Porte of the Crimson Palace, i.e., in the center cinnabar field. It can also be found in between a person’s two eyebrows: one cun beneath the skin is the Bright Hall. Both authors were located in northern hemisphere, presumably. per Fabrizio Pregadio in the Encyclopedia of Daoism - different Daoist texts placed the lower dantian in various locations - 1.3, 2, 2.4, 3, or 3.6 cun (inches) below the navel

One of the earliest descriptions of the lower Dan tian was in the Central Scripture of Laozi - roughly late 2nd to 3rd century CE. - quoted below note reference to the red child. Purportedly an early reference to the later internal alchemy concept of the inner embryo. Unlike the internal alchemy inner embryo, the red child is already there and doesn’t need to be conceived, just fed.

Mind affects body and body affects mind. Web MD talks about addressing problems with the amygdala (dysregulation of emotions and behaviors) with embodied practices (meditation, exercise and deep breathing). the amygdala’s role reminds me of the use of five phases (or five elements) in alchemy to manage emotions and ultimately move beyond them to get to the one light. as far as pointing, if you are referring to direct transmission of information I think it’s pretty common in both Daoist internal Arts and yoga. Note that one definition of qi is as a form of information flow. I am sure there are many different levels and types.

Used to be debates between Daoists and Buddhists in China. I think one time the Buddhists won and Daoists lost political power. Think it went the other way one time. tantric Saivism also used to debate the Buddhists (in Kashmir, Nepal etc) Big criticism of Buddhists was nihilism (and being foreign in China) Buddhists also beat up well on the Hindus and Dsoists though I don’t recall off the top of my head what the main points were.