Sahaja

When areas/points open up they certainly can behave like the lower Dan tian, physically expanding & contracting like pumps (even turning) on their own when bathed in awareness. I can see where this causes confusion. I think the lower and middle Dan tian are more central to the process of gathering, circulating and filling hence the emphasis on them. The physical sensation of their activity can also be a little stronger so this role is easier to perceive.

As far as Xing and Ming, in my experience the mind and body are inextricably connected (sorry Descartes) . To quote my various teachers “When you work at one layerit affects all the other layers (though not equally).” With all the various circulations you change the chemistry of the brain that both physically changes your body as well as affects your character. There are even strong “Ming” effects of just sitting with relaxed attention at the base of a tree in lotus seat with dhyana/baoyuan mudra …doesn’t even have to be a bodhi tree, pretty much any tree will work. Just have to deal with the ants!

When the substances really move and hit/pass the jade pillow going into you head, it’s quite intense…especially initially. There is no uncertainty of what is going on. It’s not subtle at all. It’s more like ohhh s***t It’s also pretty clear when it returns below. Very different experience than running just your intention through these areas while you breath.

While I am a relative beginner at this, in my understanding the MCO is not a breath exercise. It’s moving actual substances through the du and the ren with internal pressure to stimulate the brain to replenish and change the body. To do this you need to have accumulated a sufficient supply of these substances, built the mechanism to move them and opened the transport network enough to carry them. I didn’t hear any reference to this foundational work.

The Naths use the 16 adharas (locations in the body) to guide their yoga practice. Energy manifests in them per the days of the moon (new moon in big toes, full moon at topknot). https://yogicheritage.myfreesites.net/articles/sixteen-adharas-application-and-effects The moon phases also show up in the Daoist body chart called the Xiuzhen Tu that seems to have a similar pattern (new moon/full moon) see the text diagram for cultivating perfection. New moon is at perineum, full moon at topknot, waxing phases up the du and waning down the ren. Specific different practices are timed with new and full moons. Not the same but some parallels.

My understanding is that pills are temporary though I understand some high level people in Neidan world rely on them. Would seem to me that they miss out the important part of cultivation, development of De through patience and determination. While there are definitely benefits associated with them that make them a net positive thing, relying on them just so one can faqi to attract students/make money to me is only marginally better than secretly standing on an electric plate or using hidden batteries (sorry just my opinion - I guess I’m too old school) . While we all can benefit from a boost now and then (from pills or from a teacher) I think if one can become self reliant on their own capacity to build qi it’s better/healthier/more useful in the long run. That said if someone offered me a pill for free I’m sure id take it in a second...haha. I may be old school but I am also a baby boomer!

While there are many different approaches to learning the lessons of static stance work, in my work with a number of different systems there seemed to be a basic, simpler stance taught as a platform with modifications built on that - as many as 20 or 30 or more. This often included different leg stances as well. I think one can go quite far in cultivation just with the simple, basic “platform” stance. In my previous comment becoming more adept at having one’s mind absorbed inside applying song and ting, opening yong quan, learning how to respond to physical and mental discomfort and both connecting with and directing the upward rising expanding energy to open the body and build energy can all be cultivated in the basic simple”wuji” stance. In the systems I am familiar with, Additions/modifications are made to the basic platform stance for specific cultivation reasons which will vary based on the art you study and how your teacher was taught. The way I learned Zhang Zhuang was as a specific application working on a specific quality after a good deal of time in basic stance and movement practices. For me the prep work enabled me to connect with the lesson. Others might emphasize ZZ more and earlier in their study for reasons relative to their art and their teacher’s experience/preference. dwai makes an important point about over reliance on static postures and the need to balance them with movement to avoid stagnation and associated health consequences. Easy to get carried away with what you like to do, whatever it is. Trying to physically impose your will on your body practicing something or at a level you are not ready for also could also lead to this and some other nasty problems as well. My yoga teacher always counseled against imposition in practice as it carried a price, sometimes a lot higher than you bargained for. There is another saying from yoga about energy work that I think is applicable here - When taming wild animals it’s usually a good idea to take your time. On balancing static practices with movement, I would emphasize that this movement include movement of the physical body with just Yi and qi (not only external physically based movements). This is important for both cultivation and health reasons.

Sharing my experience which may differ from others - hope people find it useful. When I first learned static postures many years ago my martial arts instructor called them mental forms. There were many different ones, some quite complicated and challenging to hold for even a short time. I initially thought this term “mental form” meant just having enough mind to overcome the physical discomfort of holding the position to physically develop the body and develop power.. Later I realized in much longer stances& seats there is also a mental urge to stop from boredom and do something (anything) else that also was a challenge to overcome and was different than just overcoming the physical discomfort . Over many years I was exposed to static stance training from a number of teachers and systems in qi gong, martial arts and even in yoga. My understanding is that many systems have a “wuji” type stance (simple stance without much external complexity) to start the body change process. My understanding is that at a basic level what this entails is hanging flesh from the bones while using the mind to ting (listen) and song (release tension in the tissue & mind ) This involves essentially turning off tension/contraction in the large muscle groups as much as possible while maintaining the skeletal structure fully erect. This “relaxed’ stretching of the internal connective tissue from gravity has a different quality of development associated with it than normal external stretching or stressing muscle tissue through resistance. This can lead to the development/connection of the tissue lattice network of the internal “wetsuit” making energetic connections between parts of the body not normally connected possible (e.g hand/palm to lower abdomen, etc) My experience is this also can lead to internal energetic efficacy of hand mudras and various other hand positions as well. “Wuji” can be used as a stand alone position with the weight fully sunk to the feet to open yongquan and connect with the earth. Depending on how the foot is used, this opening can also develop the lower Dan tian and even commence its rotation. . This opening of the feet (yongquan, etc) can lead to the flow of energy/force up from the feet to shoulders and arms (or head). This energetic flow can expand and internally open the legs, kua, back, spine, shoulders and arms and is part of what makes the ZZ arm position magic work. “Wuji” is also used as a position to hold at the end of practice to allow the previous practice’s internal mechanisms to continue to work in the body. “Wuji” simple stance can work a bit like a blank sheet of paper that due to lack of much complex structure, while maintaining the relaxed internal connective tissue stretch, allows these internal processes to continue with little interference. Obviously “wuji” basic stance is used in conjunction with many, many other practices but in my understanding it is very important in the overall process of internal development. To balance this internal work it’s very important to also develop the external body (muscles, joints, bones etc) through more conventional exercise. I am sure other’s experience varies - just sharing my own.

The book Taranyali Tridha Dhyanam by Sundarnath describes the Kanphata Nath view on kundalini referencing three types urdvasakti, adasakti, and madasakti from the Siddha Siddhanta Paddhati and the Amanaska Yoga classical yoga texts associated with Gorakhnath’s teachings. Covers one of their main tools, Sakti Calani, along with their view on what sambavi mudra, vajroli mudra and khecari mudra really involve and how to use them to prepare for/approach it. In their view it takes many years to achieve and achieving it is a very high level outcome that will change one dramatically , not something that one attains without a very serious commitment or without taking some serious risks. There are parallels in my opinion between Neidan (particularly the final process step - return to source) and the Amanaska yoga (the yoga beyond the mind as described in the text). Kundalini in their view is not just an experience of energy in the body that someone can easily access which seems to be a common, popularized conception of it, but rather a very profound and deep connection with spirit that involves going beyond “ doing” , beyond one’s self and acquired mind (to the unmani state).

Yes my first experience of energetic movement was in seated yogic meditative practice. It was not part of the tradition I was in but fortunately I had a very experienced teacher that advised me to sit with it to see what it teaches me but to also stay in charge of it. This ultimately led me to a different cultivation path through trying various qi gongs and now Neidan. I can now see how the initial energetic experience was related to the Neidan process. Based on my observations in the process I followed I think working with qi is fairly generic (based on song and ting - mind soaked inside and release physical tension and mental intention) and I am somewhat skeptical of teachers that promote unique special methods and energies as I think the cultivation process is more basic than that. That said structure and advisor is essential as discipline and direction is an important part of the process (probably more than the specific method used !) .My suggestion is to use your energetic experiences to assess them and help you choose wisely.

The profound comment was targeted at the marketing of Kunlun which had a lot of nonsense in it about special energies and other esoteric stories. I met people who had previously practiced Kunlun years later in a completely different practice setting surrounded by other people having Zi Fa Gong from a completely different practice (that had never done Kunlun) still believing these stories that the Zi Fa Gong from Kunlun was somehow special. This seemed sad to me. Zi fa gong is zi fa gong. Zi in Chinese really refers to something coming from inside of you naturally. What people are experiencing is their own qi - mostly yang qi but also some yin qi as the two travel together. what I think is good about it is that - perhaps even profound - is that it gives one a direct, in your face experience of qi. Depending on the individual this can change one’s perspective as it’s dramatic, sometimes inexplicable presentation can challenge their paradigm and get them to look at things differently. I think it also can give one a direct somatic experience of accupuncture/marma areas of the body and even relationships of things like the six harmonies that are quite useful in the practice of internal martial arts. These experiences can also provide motivation for further exploration. Similar to liminal Luke I used to sit with it every morning to see what it would show me. If you pay attention it can show you some things about your internal wiring/subtle body configuration that are helpful on the path. For example this is where a first noticed the magnetic relationship between laogong and the lower Dan tian area. I was not aware of this relationship at the time but it made when I formally learned about it later make sense quite quickly, “oh geez that’s why it did that!” This type of naturally arising knowledge from inside gives one discernment that is useful when later choosing a teacher /getting formal training. Just need to be careful not to become attached to any specific experience, to be willing to let whatever arises go, and allow it to change. If you don’t you can get stuck repeating the same pattern over and over again. Cultivation experiences and phenomena should be observed/noted for whatever information they contain and then treated as irrelevant scenery and allowed to recede from awareness behind you as you travel on your path. The last comment I have is not to undertake it if you are being treated for any mental health issues as it will just add fuel to these existing issues which may exacerbate them.

Thought this passage on the definition of Dan tian from the Encyclopedia of Taoism written by Fabrizio Pregadio might be helpful to this discussion..While in my own experience the map isn’t the territory, I think it is important to note that the Dan tian is part of the teachings included in the Daozang -official corpus of Taoism and it’s historical use in self cultivation/meditation is recorded in texts back to about to 200 C.E. Originally described as foci for meditation on the body gods (almost 2000 years ago) it later was incorporated into what became Neidan in the Tang and Song dynasties (1400 to 1000 years ago) The dantian are three loci in the human body that play a major role in breath- ing, meditation, and *neidan practices. Located in the regions of the abdo- men, heart, and brain, but devoid of material counterparts, they establish a tripartite division of inner space that corresponds to other threefold motives in the Taoist pantheon and cosmology. The three Fields. The lower Cinnabar Field is the dantian proper and is the seat of essence (*jing). Different sources place it at 1.3, 2, 2.4, 3, or 3.6 inches (cun 寸) below or behind the navel, and consider it to be the same as, or closely related to, other loci in the same region of the body: the Gate of the Vital Force (*mingmen), the Origin of the Pass (guanyuan 關元), and the Ocean of Pneuma (qihai 氣海). The lower dantian lies near the huiyin 會陰 (“gather- ing of Yin”), at the meeting point of the Control Channel and the Function Channel (*dumai and renmai; see fig. 31). In the first stage of the neidan process (“refining essence into pneuma,” lianjing huaqi 鍊精化氣), circulating the es- sence along these two channels generates the inner elixir. The middle Cinnabar Field is at the center of the chest according to some authors, or between the heart and the navel according to others. It is the seat of pneuma (*qi) and is also called Yellow Court (huangting 黃庭), Crimson Palace (jianggong 絳宮), or Mysterious Female (*xuanpin). Its central position in the body also inspired the names Central Palace (zhonggong 中宮) and “One Opening at the Center of the Person” (shenzhong yiqiao 身中一竅). In the second stage of the neidan process (“refining pneuma into spirit,” lianqi huashen 鍊氣化神), the elixir is moved from the lower to the middle dantian and is nourished there. The upper Field is located in the region of the brain and is the seat of spirit (*shen). Also known as Muddy Pellet (*niwan) or Palace of Qian 1 (qiangong 乾宮, with reference to the trigram representing Pure Yang), it is divided into Nine Palaces (*jiugong) or nine chambers arranged in two rows. Niwan denotes both the upper dantian as a whole and the innermost palace or chamber (the third one in the lower row; see fig. 62). Moving the inner elixir to the upper Field marks the third and last stage of the neidan process (“refining spirit and reverting to Emptiness,” lianshen huanxu 鍊神還虛).

Max Christiansen’s Kunlun book describes essentially the same procedure (sitting in a chair on a rubber mat with a mudra with some breath awareness exercises to calm you). It’s available as a free pdf online if you search a bit. I learned it initially from the free Kunlun pdf and later bought Jenny’s video to see if I was missing anything - her video also has some other more conventional qi gong on it. Yi gong/kunlun triggers zi fa gong (spontaneous movement) from freed up yang qi which is interesting but not particularly profound (more of a natural body process than a spiritual one). It does make one more aware of ones own qi movement which can be quite helpful in further cultivation. However it’s not just this Yi Gong mudra that generates zifagong. Many qi gong practices can and do including the standing static postures like wuji, Taiyi, zhang Zhuang and others.

Elation works for me - part of the definition of elation is that it is extreme happiness/excitement that can lead to being light headed. Like little children running and playing…full of heart energy. Eventually these sounds of children laughing and yelling turn to a child crying for their mother when they fall and hurt themselves - fear.(fire then water) The important thing about this heart energy excitement/elation is that it can overwhelm judgement and discernment (child excited to play running around without care then hurts himself because lack of discernment of risk). I think this fits better with the other emotions listed and can apply to adults as well who can be a little lacking in discernment and can make mistakes when they get too excited/elated.

My understanding is that a more accurate name for the emotion joy is something like the word excitation. To me joy is different, it’s part of the ziran virtues, particularly sympathetic and empathetic joy, joy without cause, naturally arising from following the path.

It’s fun to try to do these movements with just qi and yi. Just listen then release and the body to a large extant does the movements on its own from the mobilization of the qi. I think many of the movements of the various baduan Jin sets are intended to be done this way, not as conventional external body mechanics movements. I think the challenge is to take something that looks like an external stretch or twist and do it as much of it as possible internally with just song and ting (generating Jin in the process - the internal stretch).