Sahaja

Yep. Watch a toddler try to walk. Looks like their center is at the Dan tian. Moves up to the chest in most people as they mature.

In South Asian medicine and self cultivation they have a subtle body system with 13 main nadis and 108 marma points with the nadis originating from a point just below the naval called the kanda. The maps of these are in many cases very similar to the East Asian subtle body maps. (e.g. hrt marma and laogong point in the palms quite similar in location, kanda similar to lower Dan tien). The knowledge of the marma points was developed in martial arts for treatment of injuries sustained in battle. Each point has a description of what happens when the point is injured, what system is affected and how to treat it (or if it is fatal!). while the subtle body maps look similar in South Asian systems to East Asian systems, in the South Asian tantric yoga systems the nadis are also known for conducting sound and the interaction between mudras (hand and body positions) and mantras are an important part of their yogic sadhana. This includes Nyasa Vidham which when used in cultivation is essentially a practice to become aware of the natural sounds residing in specific areas of the body represented by the sounds of the letters of the Sanskrit alphabet. These sounds constitute tools for extracting and gathering power from different parts of the body through the subtle currents, the chakras and the central nadi which is also known as the pathway of sound. south Asian systems also include a practice of acupuncture based on their own subtle body maps, but it’s not as widespread or as common as it is in East Asian medicine.

My understanding is that in some Daoist lineages for biological males abstinence is only recommended at a certain time(s) in the development process as part of a much bigger process to still the Jing involving lots of things that are stimulating, limiting stress being one of the biggest. The rest of the time the guidance is just be mindful of not too much with the definition of too much (as it uses lots of energy) getting lower as you age with some variance from person to person. Much more important in cultivation is to not use or abuse others for the purpose of self gratification. My understanding in yoga is there are certain mudras used that enable the use of the energy behind or the precursor to the sex drive (not sex or sex stimulation itself) to help trigger the energy up the central channel. I think what has happened is people take a little bit of information combined with limited understanding and turn it into something more exciting (using sex for cultivation) which I believe is an error for most people. Attachment to sex and power is one of the biggest challenges in cultivation, particularly for biological males (XY). However sex is also just part of the natural world, part of life, so we need to relate to it that way - not too puritanically, not too hedonistically, but thoughtfully and openly.

This one has a lot of energy to it for some reason, not just here on this forum. . I think many people get confused by it - grounding vs leaking. I think it is a thing in some Daoist traditions to avoid leaking yang qi that they have built up and mobilized through their practice by insulating themselves during practice by wearing shoes/standing on a mat or sitting on mats/pillows (and no grounding wires attached to the perineum. -haha!). However it’s also a very important daily practice and probably more of an immediate concern in these same traditions to ground the energy down away from the head that has been mobilized at the end of each practice session. Also there are processes designed to connect directly with di qi (the earth’s yin energy) as part of the development process usually via the yong quan point in the foot that are very important. Sinking and release are also extremely critical to the practice and there are even specialized practices for connecting with nature like ping heng gong or connecting with trees like shu Liao fa. I personally spend a lot more time and energy on sinking, grounding, releasing and connecting than on worrying about insulating during practice though I try to follow the guidance, particularly for long practice sessions. I am just sharing some background on this topic from one tradition’s viewpoint not that it is the right or the only view. Suggest you follow your own tradition/teacher/experience on this.

The other day I was doing a seated practice in the park and a gentleman in his 80s, originally from Hong Kong it turns out, randomly approached me and told me to insulate myself from the ground (bring a mat to sit on) or I will lose my yang qi. He seemed genuinely concerned for me. This is the same view in the tradition I follow (I guess I was getting a friendly reminder!) Practicing near willow trees is supposed to be good for the digestion and to calm the mind. Different types of trees are supposed to connect with different organ systems in the body. It’s the yin magnetic field of the earth that interacts with the electrically charged yang qi in the body that is supposed to create the grounding. There are some practices that take advantage of this effect, like doing prostrations, that can have benefits. So I think the topic has some complexity to it. I do now wear shoes when I practice outside out of respect for the teachings.

It’s interesting how we use science to give us a sense of control of the world. However from a Daoist perspective this attempt at control or governance limits our ability to perceive and understand what’s really going on. When you song (release) and ting (listen) you are essentially circumventing this control the limited self imposes to try to reinforce or protect itself. It can be quite amazing what arises when you do this. Qi goes from being a faint sensation on the skin of the hands to the visceral equivalent of a punch in the nose. i am not anti scientific method as I think it’s very useful but it can get in the way in self cultivation if it’s being used to reinforce or protect the limited self. on fascia I think they may be close. My understanding it’s the huang that has a crucial role with qi production and connectivity throughout the body. Though I am not sure it explains how one can release (song) and move Jin inside the body from a point outside the body. I think this brings in some discussion of energetic fields that extend out from us. this perspective arose from observations of some common behaviors in myself and others, particularly beginners, when confronted with seemingly strange physical phenomena in the practice. It’s not meant as a criticism, more of an acknowledgement.

My understanding is that at different points of the development process, what gets circulated in the orbit changes and the sensation may also change.

Actually the process of subtle yoga described in chapter 7 of the Netra Tantra describes a process of centralizing this energy , raising it, piercing the chakras and the practitioner being taken beyond the mind to a state of unity with Siva. It was likely written in the mid 8th century. The Tantrasadbhava Tantra, an 8th to 9th century text, references the kundalini energy where it describes it as a sleeping serpent in the belly. This text has a number of elements that are shared with Buddhist tantric texts - seems like sharing went both ways.

I like Jnanadeva or Jnanashwara the 13th century Marathi poet. He has two main works, one a commentary on the Bhadavad Gita (on religion) and one his own view of spirituality he wrote for his guru called Amritanubhava. https://ia800303.us.archive.org/27/items/Sri.Jnandevas.Bhvartha.Dipika-Jnaneswari/Sri.Jnandevas.Bhvartha.Dipika-Jnaneswari_text.pdf https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.4625/page/n61/mode/2up

Wow. I don’t know if I am qualified at my level to answer these questions, let alone have them make sense relative to one of the Buddhist models. at its most basic its an embodied approach focused on developing the body and the mind using the body’s underlying energetic matrix to prepare for a variety of undertakings including spiritual development, TCM practice, internal martial arts or just basic physical and mental health. This embodied approach is similar to that used in some yoga lineages and esoteric Buddhist approaches, including sharing some common tools and approaches at the beginners level. It’s predicated on the view that to work at the spiritual level (go beyond the limited self or acquired mind) one needs to have a very efficient, very healthy mind and body to support and successfully navigate the practices at these advanced levels. Time and effort is invested at the front end to avoid both mental and physical health problems as well as glass ceilings on development arising down the road. To make sense of the process and nomenclature one needs first to have some familiarity with Daoist cosmology, philosophy and their views of the mind/body. A book I’d recommend for this is A comprehensive Guide to Daoist Neigong by Damo Mitchell. Once you are familiar with this material more advanced texts on Internal Alchemy/Neidan, including Jing to qi, qi to shen etc. model, will make more sense. In this guide the basics of neigong are covered (what, why and how) along with information on more advanced neidan processes (the what and the why). This text also addresses some of the specific concerns raised by Maddie and John Doe in this thread including details on specific qi deviation syndromes and how to treat them at the basic level (what points and what herbs). The what and why of stillness related practices , such as nei guan, Xin hai, and Zuo Wang are also covered. It also describes the Daoist levels of spiritual development and terminology that relate to the more commonly familiar terms of awakening, enlightenment and to the rainbow body. In addition it covers the alchemical processes of the 5 phases or elements that refer to reversing the light an aspect of which deals with the emotions along with the various macro/micro orbits and their respective levels of which there are a number, some of which are quite advanced. the Dan tians and their usage is also covered..the guide also includes info on Daoist precepts that are important to the practice. Also the important Daoist concepts of spontaneity and non governance are covered along with their central role in navigating practice including the difference between using attention as opposed to intention in working with the energetic matrix. This also frames how to approach practices like the orbits, letting them naturally arise rather than be mind driven. I think there are free pdf copies of the guide on the internet if you are so inclined. There are a number of approaches that can be taken with neigong & internal alchemy and this is just one of them Also as I say a lot of this is way beyond my level. However the pieces I am directly familiar with have been both surprising and enjoyable to practice. Hope you find this helpful.

I think secrecy is more straightforward, they say this is not for you to share. they teach you in private and tell you to practice in private/not to share without permission. While there are things like Xin Yin (mind seal) , bai shi (lineage inductions) and associated concepts such as magical knowledge, I think the key to learning from a traditional Daoist perspective is really humility. In the old Daoist texts humility was defined as a space or hole in the heart that creates room for knowledge to enter. If there is true humility creating space, great wisdom will enter, sometimes in ways that are hard to understand. While false humility is common, true humility is not easy nor common. A large percentage of people going through a neigong process have some kind of issue stored in their bodies they have to face and release as part of their process. A lot of the time this comes out as zi fa gong (spontaneous actions ). Some of this stuff is pretty strange (not just shaking) but it eventually passes if the person does not attach to it and doesn’t make it into something bigger than it needs to be. Working through it actual has some benefit.

Here is what was in Scripture of the Immaculate Numen - 4th century CE Daoist text on the Dan tians. . Lord of the Great Dao] Most High announces: The upper cinnabar field is between your two eyebrows. The middle cinnabar field is in the Crimson Palace, or the heart. The lower cinnabar field is three cun beneath your navel. Altogether there are three cinnabar fields. The Ruddy Infant resides in the palace within your upper cinnabar field, the Perfected Being resides in the palace within your middle cinnabar field, and the Newborn resides within the palace of your lower cinnabar field. In between and slightly higher than your eyebrows is the Bright Hall; it is one cun underneath [the skin] Ge Hong also 4th century CE in his Scripture on Heaven, Earth and Humans talks about dantian (with some slight locational differences) in reference to meditating on the one. At times, it is located two cun and four fen beneath the navel in the lower cinnabar field. Other times, it is below the heart in the Golden Porte of the Crimson Palace, i.e., in the center cinnabar field. It can also be found in between a person’s two eyebrows: one cun beneath the skin is the Bright Hall. Both authors were located in northern hemisphere, presumably. per Fabrizio Pregadio in the Encyclopedia of Daoism - different Daoist texts placed the lower dantian in various locations - 1.3, 2, 2.4, 3, or 3.6 cun (inches) below the navel

One of the earliest descriptions of the lower Dan tian was in the Central Scripture of Laozi - roughly late 2nd to 3rd century CE. - quoted below note reference to the red child. Purportedly an early reference to the later internal alchemy concept of the inner embryo. Unlike the internal alchemy inner embryo, the red child is already there and doesn’t need to be conceived, just fed.

Mind affects body and body affects mind. Web MD talks about addressing problems with the amygdala (dysregulation of emotions and behaviors) with embodied practices (meditation, exercise and deep breathing). the amygdala’s role reminds me of the use of five phases (or five elements) in alchemy to manage emotions and ultimately move beyond them to get to the one light. as far as pointing, if you are referring to direct transmission of information I think it’s pretty common in both Daoist internal Arts and yoga. Note that one definition of qi is as a form of information flow. I am sure there are many different levels and types.

Used to be debates between Daoists and Buddhists in China. I think one time the Buddhists won and Daoists lost political power. Think it went the other way one time. tantric Saivism also used to debate the Buddhists (in Kashmir, Nepal etc) Big criticism of Buddhists was nihilism (and being foreign in China) Buddhists also beat up well on the Hindus and Dsoists though I don’t recall off the top of my head what the main points were.

A good deal of the minds clinging takes place in or is stored in the body, often below the level of consciousness. When you become aware of it somatically and it starts to release, conditions arise that support moving towards the Jhanic states but they also release a lot of energy that you need to contend with that can be quite intense. While one needs a level of physical fitness to support a sitting based practice so that you have a body to sit with , I think the truth goes quite a bit deeper than this. Bodhidharma purportedly said there are something like 7 levels to it.

‘The key is letting go” - the tricky bit is that mind and body are highly connected. It’s not just the mind that has to let go.

My understanding is that certain Daoist lineages utilize systems that are comparable to the 7 chakras of yoga and work with them through arts like shen gong (spirit skill) , xin ling li (psychic ability development) or guan chan (realized perception). They go by various names - 7 wheels (lun), 7 cauldrons (dings) or 7 fires (huo). They generally correspond in location to the 7 chakra system from yoga and have characteristics in common. Most importantly they are viewed as different than the Dan tians and involve work at the level of shen. I think they would say you are not dealing with this level unless you are dealing with siddhis (as is evident in the names of the practices). In the traditional yoga of the Kanphata Naths (Gorakhnath some of the mahasiddhas are part of this tradition) they work with advanced practices like Shakti chalani (churning involving nauli and khechari) for a decade plus before they are talking about moving kundalini into the central channel and piercing the chakras all the way up. This would only be after mastering difficult asana including mulabandasana and candasana that are used in this process. They would also say that siddhis are a natural outcome of this process and appropriately responding to them is an important part of the spiritual process. while I agree that one should follow a specific path or process and not mix, as embodied paths there are things in common that have been shared for a very long time. I think it’s better to know and put things in context than speculate and make poor decisions based on this. To practice at this level is very advanced, requires an experienced guide and few make it this far.

Reverse breathing is a doorway into the microcosmic orbit. Need to have prepared things but when it’s ready the orbit will arise through the du and ren without need to drive it with the yi. It will cycle on its own once started. You need to choose and to follow a specific process that someone has done before you to get anywhere. You need to have some feedback from someone experienced on that process to stay on course and progress on your chosen process. trial and error to find the specific process and teacher that works for one is fine but it is not the process.

My understanding is that alchemical systems that call the perineum the Dan tian actually just use that location as the Lu or furnace for the firing process but don’t store a Dan (the elixir) there (even though they call it a Dan tian) they would usually have the cauldron (the ding) that is used to cook the ingredients at the other “lower Dan tian” just below the umbilicus. there is a actually a simple exercise to use to see where your own lower Dan tian is. Place your awareness at the perineum (at the Hui Yin point) and slowly carefully move it straight up on the central channel (deep in middle of the body) toward the stomach level and then back down again and keep doing that until you get an energetic reaction (point of heat or a tugging are two types of reactions you might get) That should be the center of your own lower Dan tian. Need to listen to your body carefully as you slowly move your awareness up and down and it may take a few iterations but it should show itself to you. My own experience of this is that it was deeper in my body (further from the front of the body) than I expected.

In addition to the comments above, Tai Chi (Yang style) is practiced slowly to allow time for the Jin to fully run on each movement. Traditionally people often studied Xing Yi along side Tai chi as it was much more quickly learned and could provide a fast very aggressive art for protection while they invested the long years in practicing Tai Chi to be able to use it martially and for cultivation. There is a saying that the tai Chi student can’t leave the school for 10 years but the Xing yi student can leave after 1 year, or something to that effect.

Neigong just means internal skill and can have a range of meanings depending on how the teacher defines it. Internal martial arts like Tai Chi, Xing yi and Bagua often have a neigong process to support their arts, particularly to help them use the body’s soft tissues to generate power. Neigong can also be defined as the preparatory process or foundational process for internal alchemy (neidan). In this instance it would entail developing breathing techniques, awareness practices, building the Dan tian, opening/purging the channels, moving/thickening/building qi and a range of other processes to prepare the body and mind to support the more advanced meditative processes of internal alchemy that would follow. It involves both static (seated and standing) and dynamic/moving practices. Qi gong is an important tool of this type of neigong process. There are crossovers/ overlaps/synergies between this form of neigong and those supporting the internal martial arts.

Another view is that he came up with set of principals (not specific exercises) to develop the body and mind with a model of qi to huang to tendon to bone to marrow (marrow includes heart and brain tissue and introduces shen based techniques and ultimately goes the whole way ). He purportedly assessed his pupils based on how deep they had gone - skin level the lowest level student and marrow the highest. then martial artists heard about the strength of his method and came to learn about them and incorporate the principles into their systems. Generally you need to achieve and maintain some basic level of physical fitness to do and to benefit from a system that is based on his principles as opening the body with neigong is pretty intensely physical and mentally demanding work involving the deepest channels that takes a long time. . Medical qi gong not so much. Skin level qi gong not so much (e.g feeling qi between the hands or on the skin, etc). Generally energetic methods should be combined with something like martial arts or hiking on hills (or other activities that vigorously work the legs) along with regular stretching through release so the body can achieve, process and absorb the benefits of the energetic work at whatever level they are doing it.

One more thing…I’ve heard Kundalini (in addition to association with rising qi) also is associated with the spinal fluid as being an important mechanism behind it (csf creating a connection between the sacral area and pineal gland and related areas in the brain). I’ve heard this from multiple, unrelated sources. A bit more mechanistic/ physical view than shen but in some ways consistent with that.

There are a number of places on the body where these magnetic yin fields can arise in addition to the Dan tians (e.g. perineum, yellow court, etc) Once there is sufficient opening and connectivity in the body just the awareness touching these areas will trigger their fields. these areas can be used in consort in cultivation to work with and build qi holistically across the whole body if it is open enough and the mind is sufficiently absorbed into the body. There is even connectivity generated to areas outside these fields allowing one to affect the yin fields and surrounding physical tissues by subtle mental or physical adjustments to body areas far away from them ( or even from points outside the body). The size and shape of points, channels and fields and sensitivity to them can also change depending on where one is on their path and on which path. All this change/variability/connectivity (while being very Daoist ) can be confusing and a pain for people trying to map out and hold to a fixed view of the subtle body. My advice is listen to your body, then listen to the teachers and texts, then listen you your body again, then laugh at yourself for overthinking it, let it go and practice some more. the ldt itself is congenitally energetically connected to points in each direction that allow it to be used as an engine for cultivation. While these connections directly relate it to the whole abdomen, I think one typically has to reestablish the connections to these specific points before it can be used this way.