Sahaja

Doing top down you may want to read up on meditation sickness. It’s not a new thing, the people that introduced Chan dealt with this - Secret Essential Methods for Curing Meditation Sickness:Methods for Curing (Zhi chan bing mi yao fa 治禪病祕要法) a 5th century text. You can ignore the body for awhile but the longer you wait, the wilder the ride when it comes online.

Used to do 2 Chen forms many years ago. Always liked its mix of quiet moves building energy potential and then loud moves expressing the energy with fa li (particularly the elbow strikes!) Now 25 years later trying a Yang style (there are a number of them) and because I am doing a lot of static standing practice along side it have been able to connect with the internal movement of the Jin through the soft tissue. it’s weird how some of the external movements are similar but the energy expression can be so different between Chen and Yang. . if you choose to do Yang make sure they teach the internal Jin aspects (e.g 8 jins, etc) part because without it I’m not sure what you have. My sense is that a lot of internal style practice (both bagua and tai chi) is done without the internal piece which, while understandable (hard to do, hard to teach, CCP politics) it is a bit sad.

Static standing postures (hanging the flesh off the bones) are also used by some systems to build qi.

My experience is that seated work after opening, moving and strengthening the body provides a nice healthful mix and specifically makes the seated work better. the teachers that I respected the most always emphasized work with the legs (deep squats - many kinds, low stances, splits etc). They said that a person dies from the feet up - easy to see this in the shuffling walks of old people. I’ve always enjoyed martial arts movement forms combined with yoga as it seems to both open and move a wide variety parts of the body that aren’t always addressed in more conventional exercise programs. However, probably the most important thing is to choose something you enjoy to do so that it becomes part of your daily practice. Good to have some options to provide some variety as well. Whatever you choose to work on to open, move and strengthen your body will likely help the seated work.

I think the advice of asking your question on the flying Phoenix thread above is good. But I think you should include in your question how they view, how they respond to spontaneous movement or vibration arising in FP.

While I can’t offer proof, I will describe my experience with the ldt. It feels like a magnetic field in my lower abdomen that responds to my hand movements, breath, awareness, body movements, sinking and releasing. As soon as I drop my center in standing, it starts to grip. It usually starts to rotate on its own if I open my hands or if I stretch open Ming men or do reverse breathing. If I move my hands in front of it expands and contracts the tissues physically. It also Contracts/moves when I open and close my hands even if they are at arms length away .it will also turn over/flip from the effects of moving my hands . It also moves when my hands touch the central channel above baihui. The kua, yintang and yongquan also have energetic relationships with the ldt as well. The lesser orbit (energy circling in abdomen) is a common feature of my practice and will continue on its own as long as I let it. when these experiences (rotations, contractions, waves) first started to arise in yoga class I was surprised and it wasn’t what I or our teacher expected. Later when I started taking qigong classes it gave me words and context to better understand what I was experiencing. Though I was still surprised that I would have these experiences. When I started qi gong classes I noticed that I had already learned some of the cues being taught affecting the qi from just sitting with it and observing how my qi reacted while doing yoga (to different postures, mudras, mantras, points of awareness and breathing patterns). I guess you could say my qi led me to qi gong and then to a qigong teacher rather than the other way around. my experiences to date seem in line with the explanations for these fields (tians) that I’ve read and heard. They are also seem generally consistent with what others with a similar practice are experiencing. . It helped me overcome some of my natural skepticism that many of the effects showed themselves before my learning about them without expecting them or seeing others experience them. On the other hand some things I have learned in qigong (movement of Jin from release) did not initially have any effects, with the effects showing up much later in different practices when I wasn’t looking for it. I think both of these things (along with the undeniable strength of the somatic experiences) have positively influenced my views and motivate me to continue.

I don’t disagree just seems like the amount of evidence compared to the seeming importance of the view is not in balance.

I see a slight difference to some other popular religions that don’t seem to be based on things that manifest in this current physical world like enlightenment while alive and the results of personal karma appearing in this current physical world from a prior existence. Seems like this is a higher hurdle of evidence (current physical world manifestation) than what these other religions seem to say - do what I say and you will have a good afterlife, just trust me.

Thanks good answers. On reincarnation and karma just seems that it would be more efficient at behavioral modification if people could remember and connect the dots from past lives to their current lifetime. It seems it’s more used as a filler explanation after the fact when stuff happens that otherwise seems random, arbitrary or unfair. Reincarnation may exist but if it falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound?

Interesting post. Yesterday after I wrote these questions, I was at the park practicing Bagua and qigong by myself next to a group doing yang tai chi to music. Not sure I would have anything as profound to say if asked as I am just an old wood goat.

1 stillness, calm abiding, emptiness 2. Uses energetic matrix (Jing, chi, shen) behind the various layers of the body, to refine and purify these layers in progression - physical, emotional, mental and causal 3 first step is the foundations - build Dan tian, build chi, open channels , circulate qi, develop stability of awareness then move into more meditative type practices in next stages (Jing to chi, chi to shen, shen to emptiness) stages takes many, many years. First step- opening up and changing the body - takes about 3 to 5 years. 4. The foundations piece I think would be immensely helpful to an acupuncturist. I think the foundations piece would also be quite supportive of a Buddhist meditation practice. there are different approaches to it.

For me qi has such a strong somatic expression in the body during practice that it seems it is a something that exists, not just a concept or something very faint or ephemeral. Because of this, these debates seem strange to me and it’s difficult to figure out how to contribute. Transmissions and other emissions of qi don’t seem that unusual to me either, I sort of expect a good teacher to have this capability at some level even if it’s just a subtle transmission of internal skills through proximity directly from nervous system to nervous system. Not that I am at that level but when I see how the qi behaves at even my elementary level (pressure, movement, contraction, expansion, circulation, “squeezing of the toothpaste tube”)it seems more like some very early phase on the same continuum than some crazy, distant magical skill set. Whether I will ever have the capability or the qi level or the karma to ever get to that point I don’t know, but it doesn’t seem crazy impossible nor is it a particular obsession of mine. So for me on fa qi - I am - “congratulations, cool skill set, nice accomplishment , way beyond my skill level, nice skill to have as a medical practitioner” and then I’m back to my practice. Now if someone starts talking about “fa stillness”, or fa emptiness” or ‘Jhanic state fa -I am sure I will be all ears - lol!

It is interesting to read others experiences with standing practice. Thank you for sharing. Some of these experiences I’ve had, like the shaking or difficulty staying for long periods, others I have not so much - emotional response. Though sometimes I do get cranky afterward which is a sign I over did it. My definition of standing practice may be broader than some as to me classic ZZ holding the tree is only one of many, many positions where the main principle of standing, hanging the flesh off the bones and turning off muscle contraction and listening to the body, can be practiced. Qigong/neigong, bagua, tai chi and Xing yi all have static standing positions as part of their traditions. I think that shows how important they are. The benefits are quite wide ranging from physical strengthening and building energetic lines in the body to support energy flow in movement to developing yin fields in the abdomen and elsewhere to mental absorption in the body that can take one quite deep. Personally I find that they generate a lot of endorphins (much more than other physical exercises for me) - kind of superficial I know - but still it’s a nice feeling implying both a physical health benefit and mental benefit (much more smiling afterward!) I image some people might get annoyed by my silly smile afterward, my apologies! Now when I stand and allow the flesh to hang I immediately experience both yang chi movement and yin chi contraction of body tissue. There is also much more internal connection than there used to be with individual finger, hand, shoulder, wrist and foot placement/adjustment creating energetic responses in the tissue in different parts of the torso. While they are systematic and repeatable, their complexity makes mapping their specific patterns difficult. I surmise there is a correlation between this chi mobilization and the endorphins though I have not ever been told this by any of my teachers. Even when my awareness touches certain points chi gets mobilized. It’s pretty cool when you have strong somatic responses where the points are on the acupuncture chart. Actually where your awareness and how stable it is really an important key to the practice. If your mind is somewhere outside the body during the practice the benefits are limited, sort of the same as in yoga. I am now at a stage where the Jin is moving up , down and out in the body in standing practice which does feel like it widens the body and further stretches the tissue. Back and arms spreading from the Jin movement start to feel like I look like a gorilla - lol. . I still struggle staying a long time but the struggle is more a weariness of mind or body than specific body pain. Though my arthritic knee and shoulder provide some fireworks from time to time. I have to observe my own personal cues to work around these health challenges (my karma talking to me!) . . Shakiness still arises but is shorter and more of a bouncy energetic response to a cue (which there are so many of like in Santishi which must have 20 plus cues to consider when practicing). I think the cues are really important to keep you on task with your awareness continuously monitoring the body. This mental monitoring can also take one quite deep into absorption in the body. I find that this absorption is transferable to my sitting practice. I do these practices daily and highly recommend them. While it may be helpful at different points to have a goal of how long to build endurance, I think it’s more important in the long run how you do it. A few minutes where you’ve really released the tissue and turned off muscle contraction to the point you almost fall down and are really absorbed in observing and practicing the cues to the point you forget about everything else can have a lot of benefits for your life. I have been told that some of the standing practices can take you as far as the sitting practices can in your sadhana. . best wishes with your practice.

Joining and Rou shou (which are the terms for these practices I am familiar with) are pretty cool. It’s an internal martial arts/neigong skill that can be learned. I think the cool part is seeing what is possible to develop using your mindbody not the martial skill or power. I understand there are a number of ways to do it. It’s a skill not magic though it does have a little woo-woo.

Lots of old texts, particularly in South Asia, talk about siddhis (one whole chapter in Patanjali’ s book with 4 chapters talks about them)They arise naturally as a consequence of the practice and how we respond to them to affects where we end up. I think making a certain capability the focus of your practice is limiting, even showing it or talking about it can carry some consequences, particularly if it’s a show off or carnival type approach. On the other hand teachers sharing their qi with their students, (or in this case with a patient) can be a useful normal process if done correctly. Having powers doesn’t mean someone is spiritually advanced either. I’ve seen people who could do many things end up unwell physically, mentally and reputationally because their experiences made them view themselves too highly and they took advantage of others. The negative, cynical energetic reaction we see to this topic in these comments and elsewhere on TB is just the flip side of people over excited chasing powers. They are like the negative image of obsessed fans.(negative fan boys) I would say it’s equally as destructive for them as it is for the over excited fan. The advice I have received for responding to weird things arising is to maybe acknowledge, maybe laugh or say wow, then move on with your practice. I think the same thing goes with responding to others that have something arise in their practice. Finally sometimes I see teachers talk to other teacher’s students talking negative about their teachers. I think this can carry some pretty serious karma if it’s done to for the wrong reason. It’s easy to think you are doing someone a favor when a) you don’t fully understand what is going on in that relationship b).it’s really done to steal that student away. For students I would say take any comment from a teacher that disrespects another teacher or school and that they alone possess the right way to practice as a huge, glittering, waving red flag.

Sorry, tried and failed. It’s just a 25 second video of Damo Mitchell treating a patient. One of the treatments shows him putting the chi into the patient’s torso and the patient having muscle contractions head to toe. Then there is a short description that I quoted (e.g. 16 types of chi emission ) The name Zhen Fa could relate to Zhen qi but that’s just conjecture on my part.

As a follow up to my comment on seeing something familiar before to the method Rudy used. I found the reference I was thinking of but it might be different than what Rudy is doing so apologies if that’s the case - it’s called Zhen Fa - a type of Qi emission used by a TCM practitioner to treat a patient called vibrating shaking chi. Patients reaction was similar to other videos posted as was the method by the person applying it (pushing the chi down his arm into the patient and the patient’s muscle’s contracting) . Apparently there are 16 types of qi emissions that can be used by medical practitioners. It’s presented as an example of a tool that can be usedin a descriptive manner in the video. Not as an ad. Couldn’t figure out how to link the video but it’s on Internal Arts Academy Facebook page - search for acupuncture. Posted in 2020. As I said before, I believe qi emission is something that can be developed. I don’t think you will get a job at a shipyard as an arc welder with it -lol- but it definitely is a tool with a purpose. Actually the more mysterious part to me is getting the energy to the right point to be medically useful without injuring the patient.

Sex not much of a Jing issue for women. Childbirth and nursing are big consumers of Jing for them as I understand it.

Yes. I can think a person is attractive or desirable and not have the physical steps of sexual arousal take place which are specific physical changes in the mind/body.

My understanding is that it’s lost through arousal not just desire. It’s the body’s physical response that burns it. Arousal could be sexual in nature or it could be something else like stress starting a physical fight or flight reaction (arousal) in the body. For men it’s not the ejaculation, it’s the body physically getting ready for ejaculation that burns the Jing. I think it’s an important distinction because it provides a better opportunity to manage it.

Some lineages consciously avoid use or reference to energy centers below the belly button for puritanical reasons. Sometimes they are referred to as secret for similar reasons.

Based on my familiarity with the exercise Rudy does in the video to generate/move the qi (particularly the part where he has to do it a couple of times to get it going), familiarity with the exercise’s effects on the tissue when one does it as a qi gong form to move and thicken the qi, having seen others move qi into their hand the same way that Rudy demonstrates, and the limited level of reaction of the young ladies receiving it (no falling onto the floor and rolling around or other drama) I would say that it’s a simpler solution that it’s true than that he learned how to effectively hypnotize people to believe it and successfully deceived all his students. I guess the only way to be sure is to ask him to demonstrate it on you. I am not one of Rudy’s students nor do I have an interest in chasing abilities as I don’t think it’s the correct approach. Not much to say about the other videos other than I don’t plan to visit the school of magnetism and mesmerism anytime soon.

So only 10% feel it? From all the examples of debunking of phenomena I’ve seen here based on the widespread, foolproof method of hypnosis, hypnosis only works on 10%?. my cynicism feels dashed and I am aghast!. I hope I don’t have to start believing in esoteric phenomena now.

That is my understanding There was another guy Prakasatman after him that specifically tried to clarify “Maya and Brahman together constitute the entire universe, just like two kinds of interwoven threads create a fabric. Maya is the manifestation of the world, whereas Brahman, which supports Maya, is the cause of the world.” Hmm sounds a lot like Siva and Sakti. It also sounds like a lot of other philosophies where one guy says something and later a cottage industry is set up to explain and defend what he/she said often fundamentally changing it in the process.

Good question. We need to ask Shankara what he meant by maya being conceptually distinct from Brahman. Though saying that siva and sakti are two views of one thing that is indivisible subordinating Maya to a lower tattva isn’t exactly clear either, though I do prefer living in a world that is real to one that is illusory.